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usarioclave

macrumors 65816
Sep 26, 2003
1,447
1,506
Also closed systems never win out in the longer term.

Historically closed systems have always won in the long term. As400 and mainframes are still going strong, as is Apple. Closed systems generate margins which fund future development. Open systems generally don't charge enough to be sustaining.

What happens to Linux when Torvalis dies? What happens to android when nobody wants to subsidize it anymore?
 
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Trapezoid

macrumors 65816
Mar 19, 2014
1,429
0
In case you've been under a rock, Samsung heavily invests in R&D. Yes, more than 3X of Apple.

So how again has the S5 been a copycat? What is it a copy of?

Wow, definitely did not know that. Perhaps I should correct my incorrect statement and say they need better r&d, because if you're spending three times as much as apple and your coming up with gimmicks, might be time to go back to the drawing table.

As for the s5, ive stated multiple times that the s5 is what happens when Samsung DOESNT copy. They had nothing to copy and the result was the s5.

I'll never understand the people who insist that Samsung never copies. All companies do, including apple.
 

iOSaddict

macrumors regular
Jun 3, 2014
198
0
You've got to be kidding me with this fanboy BS. You don't enjoy competition that clearly benefits the consumer? Apple doesn't "borrow" ideas from competition? (I mean this is one of the exact reasons so many Android fans despise Apple as a company, the perception of copying others). When you marvel at your new "large" iPhone you can thank Samsung for making it mainstream.

Nope. iPhone was the phone that made bigger phones mainstream, followed by HTC and LG's phones. Just because Samsung spent more on marketing doesn't mean they got credited for anything.

And no, I and many other people don't want a big ass phone.
 

orl2222

macrumors member
Oct 21, 2003
97
76
so cal
Samsung, and Android products in general have never impressed me. And yes I've owned them. Samsung rode the on the rise of Android, and without it, can not do it on their own. Tim Cook was right, Android is a forked system, open source and free to manufacturers.
If you visit Android forums you will find that most geeky users are trying to use different mods etc to make them more usable.
Right now I have a Nokia 920 Windows phone, and even Samsung users are amazed how fast it is, and no lagging, and apps open right away.
I've owned the original iPhone, and up to the 4s. I will go back to iPhone when the new 6's come out.
Again, I do feel sorry for Samsung users and Android users in general, having to jump thru hoops to get functionality that Apple and even Microsoft offers.
 

Trapezoid

macrumors 65816
Mar 19, 2014
1,429
0
Samsung, and Android products in general have never impressed me. And yes I've owned them. Samsung rode the on the rise of Android, and without it, can not do it on their own. Tim Cook was right, Android is a forked system, open source and free to manufacturers.
If you visit Android forums you will find that most geeky users are trying to use different mods etc to make them more usable.
Right now I have a Nokia 920 Windows phone, and even Samsung users are amazed how fast it is, and no lagging, and apps open right away.
I've owned the original iPhone, and up to the 4s. I will go back to iPhone when the new 6's come out.
Again, I do feel sorry for Samsung users and Android users in general, having to jump thru hoops to get functionality that Apple and even Microsoft offers.

Samsung concentrates more on gimmicks to say they did things first. I know you said you're getting the 6 but if you end up not liking it, definitely check out offerings from htc and lg. Much better quality than Samsung crap and no silly gimmicks. Just a solid phone that works, just like the iPhone.
 

macduke

macrumors G5
Jun 27, 2007
13,172
19,739
You are correct, it WAS too long to bother reading. I too enjoy Apple products, but can recognize that Samsung has made them strive for better. Samsung didn't invent phone sizes the same way Apple didn't invent the smart phone. But guess what? They made large phones mainstream, the same way Apple made the smartphone mainstream. When you grow up a bit you'll realize it's just a piece of electronics, and even your precious Apple is in this for no other reason than to take your money. Quit taking it so seriously. Go spend your response time researching stocks instead of writing a novel on a message board.

Well then you missed my whole section about how I use way more products than just Apple. That contributed to most of the length. I'm a member of multiple websites where I comment on products I use. Apple isn't precious. Sometimes they can really piss me off. But Samsung, on the other hand, is run by a bunch of asses who have never had an original thought. I like lots of other tech companies (list in the OP) and all of them are better than Samsung.

Grow up? Stocks? I'm a professional designer, own my own company, help my wife run her own company, 29 years old, been married over 5 years, own a house on a 15 year mortgage, have two paid off cars and have a kid. I also have positions in several stocks and mutual funds. What the hell? Is this a pissing match now? I actually wrote for 9to5Mac for a short time several years ago before I got to too busy. I'm actually a pretty quick writer, but regardless I'll waste my time how I please, thank you very much!
 

cmaier

Suspended
Jul 25, 2007
25,405
33,471
California
Some well respected IP jurists have also said that layman juries should not decide patent trials.

Such juries can understand common human motives and the presence of physical evidence. They cannot understand software concepts and patent wording that even code experts dispute, and which often hinge upon the placement of a comma.

You'd be surprised what layman juries can understand. i've seen juries "get it wrong," but seldom because they weren't made to understand the technology and the patent claims.
 

Trapezoid

macrumors 65816
Mar 19, 2014
1,429
0
You'd be surprised what layman juries can understand. i've seen juries "get it wrong," but seldom because they weren't made to understand the technology and the patent claims.

Its what I was saying too...the jury system is an incredibly effective system. Doesn't mean it's infallible but blaming the justice system is kinda silly.
 

MacMulti

macrumors regular
Mar 20, 2013
150
13
You've got to be kidding me with this fanboy BS. You don't enjoy competition that clearly benefits the consumer? Apple doesn't "borrow" ideas from competition? (I mean this is one of the exact reasons so many Android fans despise Apple as a company, the perception of copying others). When you marvel at your new "large" iPhone you can thank Samsung for making it mainstream.

It is a stark difference between upsizer and innovator. Wake up your... ahh never mind.
 

FloatingBones

macrumors 65816
Jul 19, 2006
1,486
745
100% right on. I'm the biggest Apple fan there is; but there is no way Apple would be developing bigger screens, or allowing flexible keyboards, if some other company didn't go out there first and prove that there was huge consumer demand for these.

I don't know how anyone outside of the company could know this. The iOS 8 Extensiability Architecture is a massive amount of work that undoubtably spanned several years. It takes great care to ensure that app security and platform data integrity is maintained when extending the architecture in this fashion. IDK how much you understand about this tech; it has been discussed extensively in several episodes of the Debug podcast since the WWDC.

You may have more of a point on screen size, but not on flexible keyboards.
 

Arndroid

macrumors 6502a
Oct 3, 2013
903
461
Seems to me the issue with Samsung (at least in the mobile space) is no brand loyalty. They spent billions of dollars on this whole "next big thing" campaign yet it didn't seem to buy them any brand loyalty. Their mobile phone sales are flat to down and Apple hasn't even released it's larger iPhone yet. Without brand loyalty and some kind of differentiation it will be tough for Samsung.

This is a HUGE problem for them. When upgrading it is easy to switch to another android handset maker. All android oems have this issue. There is zero to tie people into one brand and customers can dismiss you when upgrading without a second thought.

Really seems like Samsung has to pivot to Tizen
 

MH01

Suspended
Feb 11, 2008
12,107
9,297
Apple is doomed...

Oh, wait - sorry. That was reflex.

Man, coupled with the fact that Samsung was the only major smartphone OEM to both lose marketshare AND take a drop in sales, things don't look all that positive for the Korean giant.

Could we perhaps be moving past the Samsung "fad"?

Doubt it.

Samsung is in so many industries , it can take quite a few years of bad results without breaking a sweat.

The copy factory is not going anywhere.

----------

This is a HUGE problem for them. When upgrading it is easy to switch to another android handset maker. All android oems have this issue. There is zero to tie people into one brand and customers can dismiss you when upgrading without a second thought.

Really seems like Samsung has to pivot to Tizen

Everyone has this issue. Apart from apples most loyal who are blind to anything else, I know many people that switch between tech depending on what is the greatest at the time. There are a lot and i mean a lot of users out there that switch. The blind loyal drones are the minority.

Whoever you are , you need to get a product that is the greatest and latest to attract the masses.
 

Heltik

macrumors 6502
Jul 16, 2002
254
51
USA
Anybody else enjoying this recent downfall of Samsung? Missing earnings estimates, being knocked off the top in China by Xiaomi, and now this. Karma!

To be clear, I don't wish Samsung to go out of business. They do a good job making certain hardware components like displays and SSDs. I just want them to be put in their place for all of their shameless copying. Punishment to fit the crime. Now continue along like a good little OEM.

I would love to see them go out of business, their organisation to be broken apart, and their workers and capacity to pass into the hands of responsible owners who will work ethically, and treat the employees with the respect and dignity they deserve.

Putting them in their place is one thing, but how does that help restore the position of the companies that have been so harshly damaged by their shoddy business practices? And I'm not just talking Apple, but the likes of Panasonic, Sharp, to name just a few... As well as consumers who've been impacted by their unethical price fixing.
 

FloatingBones

macrumors 65816
Jul 19, 2006
1,486
745
That's what I said.

No, you didn't. You gave a convoluted set of "reasons" why Samsung abandoned its agreement with Microsoft.

Why, on a legal basis, do you think it was OK for Samsung to stop making the royalty payments that they had been making to Microsoft for years? Samsung didn't try to explain themselves or re-negotiate; they just stopped making payments.

Okay, now you're just being lazy :)

I referenced the MS complaint. Which is linked to by your link.

You told us, "Then, after MS bought Nokia, the Nokia to Samsung royalties stopped, because MS claims that Nokia phones are now covered under previous Samsung-Microsoft cross licenses." Unfortunately, nowhere in the article is any such thing said.

Please don't be lazy. :) If you make a claim, you need to provide evidence that actually supports that claim.

No one said if it was appropriate behavior or not. But even the article you linked to, noted that Microsoft sees it as something that can be worked out.

Where? The article says that Microsoft sued Samsung.

Royalty disagreements are not uncommon with phone makers.

Dropping royalty payments to ZERO after paying them for years -- with no negotiation -- is quite uncommon.

Heck, how much has Apple paid Motorola for using their IP for seven years? Apparently nothing yet, since Apple claims Moto wants too much, and the appropriate amount hasn't been settled yet.

Samsung and MS had an agreement, and Samsung just stopped making payments after years of making payments. They had a contract, and Samsung has now breached the contract. There is absolutely no comparison.

What's helped Samsung as much as anything else is that Googles's made Android a decent OS. Compare 4.4 to 1.6 and you'll see a world of difference.

And, Samsung has attempted to ditch Android and "innovate" to their Tizen interface. Unfortunately, they can't copy away the ecosystem of Android apps. At best, Samsung would face years of an app vacuum. I'm hardly surprised that Samsung has suspended their introduction of any Tizen smart phones.

There appears to be some Samsung self-inflicted damage here, in addition to Apple retaliation.

Another area of self-inflicted damage is Samsung's abuse of FRAND patents. The DOJ, the Japanese courts, and the EU have punished Samsung for their abuse of FRANDs. One wonders how @kdarling will justify this abuse by Samsung. :rolleyes:

I fondly hope that standards-making bodies will pay attention: Gee, Samsung, your tech for the proposed xxx standard is very interesting, but your prior abuse of FRAND patents prohibits us from selecting your proposal. Thanks for playing! :D
 
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the8thark

macrumors 601
Apr 18, 2011
4,628
1,735
One other little news item I haven't seen covered by MR: Samsung has dropped their royalty payments to Microsoft, and Microsoft has now sued them. I can't imagine how this lawsuit will go well for Samsung.

So it looks like Samsung have wronged Apple and MS. Not a good day if your a Samsung investor.

The problem with Samsung is no brand loyalty as has been said before. I own a Samsung camera. And it's great. CSC NX300. Why did I buy it? It's a great camera and I got it for a great price. Do I care if it's a Samsung? No. Will my next camera be Samsung? If I don't have any more lenses then I don't know. Whatever one is at the best price and quality I'll get.

I don't really care that it's a Samsung camera. But my Apple iPhone1 I really am proud it's from Apple. Apple at least try to make me feel good for buying Apple. Samsung don't give a **** that I bought Samsung or any other brand. Samsung do put out some quality stuff outside the mobile phone sector. It's just a shame Samsung don't make the average customer be as proud of the brand on the product as we are with the product itself.

----------

Whilst I know, and can understand at some level the hatred shown towards Samsung by people who are very fond of Apple.

Please do not forget 2 very VERY important points.

1: Without Samsung the iPhone would not be anything like as good as it is now from a component quality standpoint.

2: Without people like Samsung PUSHING HARD to get their own customers, raising people's expectations, Apple would have little reason to push for large improvements in their own models.

Please don't be naive enough to think that any company such as Apple would try as hard as they can year on year to win customers without any competition from other manufacturers.

So as much as you may on the surface Hate Samsung. Remember in both ways Apple and the iPhone would be nothing and/or no where near as good without them.

1. Very true. Without Samsung the iPhones would be even better. All those legal fees could be better spent in phone R&D.

2. You'd think so but no. Apple always know their biggest competitor is itself. And Apple always have to better itself or they lose customers. Having Samsung around to foster even more competition is good but Apple do not need it for the push.

----------

Nice! Couldn't happen to a company with less ethics.
I don't know... There are some Pharmaceutical companies and some Weapons tech. companies that are less ethical..
Well Google does exist. As does Amazon. Samsung is not even in the same ballpark when it comes to the non-ethics Google and Amazon practice.

----------

I respect Google
You respect those unethical *******s? Fine, free world and all, but I will never respect or like Google.
MS on the other hand I do like and respect some of their practices.

----------

And that's okay. In fact, it's great. One of Apple's strengths is that sometimes they can change their mind on a dime.

This is also Apple biggest flaw. These turn arounds can be good or they can be totally opposite to what Apple is and has always stood for.
 

kdarling

macrumors P6
You'd be surprised what layman juries can understand. i've seen juries "get it wrong," but seldom because they weren't made to understand the technology and the patent claims.

Hi. Long time no see!

Having the technology and claims explained to them, doesn't mean they have the experience to understand whether something is really a copy or just common coding ability.

It's like when that Oracle lawyer went on and on about how hard it must have been to write a range check function, which surely a layman jury could believe (if it had been for a jury). Fortunately, Judge Alsup was a programmer, and stopped the lawyer short and explained that a kid could do it.

Asking a layman jury to decide highly technical items is like asking them to decide which heart operation is best. They can get all the explanation and information possible, yet still not have the depth of experience needed to make the right choice.

In the first Koh trial, there's no doubt that the ignorance of the jury (plus their apparent desire to get home before the weekend) allowed them to be won over by that foreman's technically bogus explanation of patent infringement depending on the same code running on another device type.

Regards.
 

kdarling

macrumors P6
Why, on a legal basis, do you think it was OK for Samsung to stop making the royalty payments that they had been making to Microsoft for years?

I didn't say it was okay. I simply explained the circumstances around it.

You told us, "Then, after MS bought Nokia, the Nokia to Samsung royalties stopped, because MS claims that Nokia phones are now covered under previous Samsung-Microsoft cross licenses." Unfortunately, nowhere in the article is any such thing said.

As I pointed out, that is alluded to in the lawsuit itself, which is linked to by the article.

Some people just skim articles. Others, like me, actually read the source material so we can get the details. For example, I see that Foss Patents came to the same conclusion as I did:

"It's not hard to see why Microsoft would like this to be the case, and why Samsung would not want it to be the case. The net effect would be that

  • Samsung would pay Microsoft per-unit royalties on all Android devices,
  • Microsoft would pay Samsung nothing for the use of any Samsung patents (such as wireless standard-essential patents) in the former Nokia devices, and
  • Nokia is, as a result of its Microsoft deal, free to collect patent royalties from Samsung.

"This is obviously not the kind of outcome that Samsung could have foreseen when it entered into the Microsoft license agreement in 2011. But the key legal question is going to be whether the Microsoft-Samsung contract covers this situation regardless of whether Samsung could have reasonably anticipated it."

Foss Patents - Aug 1, 2014

I accept your apology in advance.
 

cmaier

Suspended
Jul 25, 2007
25,405
33,471
California
Hi. Long time no see!

Having the technology and claims explained to them, doesn't mean they have the experience to understand whether something is really a copy or just common coding ability.

It's like when that Oracle lawyer went on and on about how hard it must have been to write a range check function, which surely a layman jury could believe (if it had been for a jury). Fortunately, Judge Alsup was a programmer, and stopped the lawyer short and explained that a kid could do it.

Asking a layman jury to decide highly technical items is like asking them to decide which heart operation is best. They can get all the explanation and information possible, yet still not have the depth of experience needed to make the right choice.

In the first Koh trial, there's no doubt that the ignorance of the jury (plus their apparent desire to get home before the weekend) allowed them to be won over by that foreman's technically bogus explanation of patent infringement depending on the same code running on another device type.

Regards.

I disagree, but you know where I stand on it :) tl;dr version - I've seen a lot of decisions, and they're almost always right (or at least defensible).
 

kdarling

macrumors P6
I disagree, but you know where I stand on it :) tl;dr version - I've seen a lot of decisions, and they're almost always right (or at least defensible).

*grin* Yes sir, I understand.

I actually looked you up long ago, and your background is interesting. There but for the grace of god might I have gone. lol

Hope all is going well with you and yours, and I hope you post more!
 

fertilized-egg

macrumors 68020
Dec 18, 2009
2,109
57
Apple is a big buyer, but they're still only about 10% of TSMC's chip business, and less than that overall for Samsung chips overall (but bigger for APs).

There's no such thing as "Samsung chips", it just refers to the semiconductor business category. The article clearly states the name of the division responsible for the logic chips, the System LSI.

Apple is literally the only large client System LSI has other than Samsung. They have been struggling to attract other clients, and the System LSI people get incentive payments based on the performance of that division, not how well others do. So contrary to the implication, yes, Apple currently is very important to them.

This reportedly led to their decision to sync the 14nm process with GlobalFoundries. That means Apple can now move to GloFo after TSMC instead of going back to Samsung, and Samsung in return will have access to GloFo's IP and the capacity so that they can go after likes of Qualcomm and nVidia. I'd say that's a win-win if the rumors are true.

I actually looked you up long ago, and your background is interesting. There but for the grace of god might I have gone. lol

You'll be glad to know that Cmaier is one poster here who has been advocating the superiority of TSMC over Samsung as a fab. ;)
 

AppleScruff1

macrumors G4
Feb 10, 2011
10,026
2,949
Name one part of Samsung busmiess that do not sell at razor thin margins? That's the difference!
Apple has their own CDN that's the difference!
Apple has their own interconnects at all the major ISP's that's the difference!

And that benefits us as consumers with lower prices?
 

cmaier

Suspended
Jul 25, 2007
25,405
33,471
California
You'll be glad to know that Cmaier is one poster here who has been advocating the superiority of TSMC over Samsung as a fab. ;)

I'm not familiar with their current SPICE models, but enough people that I respect choose TSMC and have rejected Samsung, so I trust them.
 
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