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ctyrider

macrumors 65816
Jul 15, 2012
1,026
594
A short summary: allowing third-party purchases will likely destroy the economic model of the App Store and punish smaller developers, it disproportionately favors big devs like Epic and it has major security and privacy implications to the end user.

You're just parroting Apple PR talking points. The notion that allowing 3rd party devs to opt out of Apple App Store will somehow destroy iOS ecosystem and harm end users is nonsense.. nothing more than alarmist fear mongering, with no basis in reality.

Look at the thriving Mac ecosystem, which has always allowed developers to distribute their apps outside of Apple App Store and use their own payment services. Where is the doom and gloom brought down by non-mandatory Apple App Store distribution on MacOS? And why can't Apple simply apply the Mac approach to iOS? There is no rationally good reason.


I also had to laugh a bit at "digital goods" bit. Manipulating teenagers into being pixel hats is not "producing digital goods", it's making money out of thin air. Epic is pushing these changes just so that they can make more %%% of their billions of revenue. While at the same time engaging into anti-consumer activity like locking in game developers.

I could care less about Epic and gaming in general, but I fail to see what point you're making. Are you saying it's immoral for Epic to manipulate teens into in-gaming purchases, but it's somehow OK for Apple to collect a toll on the money Epic makes off of teenagers?

Forget Epic, take services like Spotify or Netflix - Apple is not entitled to collect a share of those companies revenues, simply because they act as the gatekeeper to distribute Spotify/Netflix apps on iOS. This is rent seeking, it should be illegal, and I hope the courts will finally make it so.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,333
24,081
Gotta be in it to win it
[...]

Forget Epic, take services like Spotify or Netflix - Apple is not entitled to collect a share of those companies revenues, simply because they act as the gatekeeper to distribute Spotify/Netflix apps on iOS. This is rent seeking, it should be illegal, and I hope the courts will finally make it so.
Apple absolutely is entitled and the courts will let this stand.
 

farewelwilliams

Suspended
Jun 18, 2014
4,966
18,041
I'm not going to go around in circles with you.

You and I both know that smartphone usage is increasingly a modern life expectation for people interacting with all the touch points of socializing, commerce, job hunting, on and on. Anyone not doing that en masse yet, will be - just a matter of time.

Thank for the replies (and the 10+ "dislikes" - lol)

Have a good night

"increasingly"

so you admit it's not currently essential, therefore your argument against @Michael Scrip 's comment: "But then a developer has the right to NOT develop for iOS at all." is irrelevant because smartphones are currently not essential.
 
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farewelwilliams

Suspended
Jun 18, 2014
4,966
18,041
The developer paid Apple an annual fee to have access to that platform, and Apple's tremendous profitability from the iPhone is due to the utility for customers that independent developers create for it.

It was the arrival of 3rd party apps that made the iPhone a hit, and the presence of 3rd party apps that makes Apple's platforms viable.

If anyone is getting the free ride, it's Apple.
$99/year barely pays for 3 hours of app reviews (averaging $30/hr based on Glassdoor data).

I submitted over 60 updates in one year. You really think $99 covers that?

My live analytics showed someone at an Apple Store launched my app to review the newest updates. They averaged about an hour of review before closing the app. That's 60 hours or $1,800 in rates Apple has to pay a human just for reviewing my apps in one year.

And the apps I released were free. Apple made nothing from hosting my app.

And we didn't even talk about the other resources like...hosting my app in China.
 
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chucker23n1

macrumors G3
Dec 7, 2014
8,607
11,419
$99/year barely pays for 3 hours of app reviews (averaging $30/hr based on Glassdoor data).

I submitted over 60 updates in one year. You really think $99 covers that?

Why should developers have to pay for app review when Apple decided they wanted to review every app? What kind of weird logic is that?

And we didn't even talk about the other resources like...hosting my app in China.

Or deciding not to host it in China because China calls Tim, another problem that wouldn't exist if Apple hadn't inserted itself in the middle.
 

farewelwilliams

Suspended
Jun 18, 2014
4,966
18,041
Why should developers have to pay for app review when Apple decided they wanted to review every app? What kind of weird logic is that?

Did you forget that iPhone only supported webapps during the initial launch? Developers asked for native software APIs so Apple decided that the only way they would allow it was through a human review process to protect the platform and their users.

Don't want a human reviewer? Go make a webapp.


Or deciding not to host it in China because China calls Tim, another problem that wouldn't exist if Apple hadn't inserted itself in the middle.

Replace China with USA and you come across the same hosting fees problem.
 

chucker23n1

macrumors G3
Dec 7, 2014
8,607
11,419
Did you forget that iPhone only supported webapps during the initial launch?

I really don't see how that's relevant.

Developers asked for native software APIs so Apple decided that the only way they would allow it was through a human review process to protect the platform and their users.

Exactly. Apple decided that. They didn't decide that for the Mac, or the Apple II. This is Apple's problem.

Don't want a human reviewer? Go make a webapp.

Don't want differing opinions? Go make a Gab account.

Replace China with USA and you come across the same hosting fees problem.

Hosting isn't that expensive.
 
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ksec

macrumors 68020
Dec 23, 2015
2,241
2,595
Does your google not work? We can basically just blanket it with "Southeast Asia" and "Latin America" as a whole.

Here's Epic saying they don't cover payment processing fees because it can cost up to 25%:


Here's Valve demonstrating that in Asia 87.5% of all transactions are completed with non-standard methods to avoid fees such as these, requiring an infrastructure for redeemable cards.


Um... You call those evidence? Seriously ?

As long as Visa and Master, or any other Credit Payment system exist there isn't a single country on planet earth that takes 25% payment processing fees as the only solution.

And I am already counting Digital / electronic Online solution, where offline digital solution tends to me cheaper with physical security.

If you mean paying $0.99 to $1.99 can take up to 25% of transition fees, well yes. even in US that could be true.
 

farewelwilliams

Suspended
Jun 18, 2014
4,966
18,041
I really don't see how that's relevant.

Apple advertises the iPhone to be the most secure phone ever which has helped sell more iPhones. Webapps keep the phone secure while native apps being installed from anywhere would put Apple's users at risk. So why should Apple allow native apps that might scare potential customers away from their platform just because developers wanted it? Why should Apple be a charity to developers?

No different on Playstation and Xbox. Publishers are paying Sony and Microsoft to review every game. Don't like it?

Exactly. Apple decided that.

If you don't like a platform's decision, you don't develop for that platform.

I don't like Oculus' platform's decision to force their users to use Facebook and to deny many indie developers from being able to put their games on their store. So I develop for Steam. Same thing.

They didn't decide that for the Mac, or the Apple II. This is Apple's problem.

Why should they make the same mistake on the Mac or the Apple II?

Don't want differing opinions? Go make a Gab account.

Sounds like you don't want my "differing opinion". Hope you signed up for a Gab account by now, whatever that is.

Hosting isn't that expensive.

It sure is.


AWS is only one of four major cloud providers Apple uses too.
 
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Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
19,746
22,329
Singapore
Um... You call those evidence? Seriously ?

As long as Visa and Master, or any other Credit Payment system exist there isn't a single country on planet earth that takes 25% payment processing fees as the only solution.

And I am already counting Digital / electronic Online solution, where offline digital solution tends to me cheaper with physical security.

If you mean paying $0.99 to $1.99 can take up to 25% of transition fees, well yes. even in US that could be true.

These payment processing services don’t run a curated App Store either. Its easy to charge less when you are also doing less.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,333
24,081
Gotta be in it to win it
Its easy to charge more when nobody has a choice. ?
There is a choice, vote with your dollars. But it seems that sentiment is missing, it's more about government micro-regulations.

Just think if 10,000 developers left Apple en-masse, that would do more damage than any regulations.

(Now I know why my posts -- and many others with opposing viewpoints -- get so many ha-ha's. I'll bet many are reaching their daily limit on the "dislike" reaction. haha)
 
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BuffaloTF

macrumors 68000
Jun 10, 2008
1,772
2,234
Um... You call those evidence? Seriously ?

As long as Visa and Master, or any other Credit Payment system exist there isn't a single country on planet earth that takes 25% payment processing fees as the only solution.

And I am already counting Digital / electronic Online solution, where offline digital solution tends to me cheaper with physical security.

If you mean paying $0.99 to $1.99 can take up to 25% of transition fees, well yes. even in US that could be true.

Right, 87.5% of Asia... 3 billion+ people... should just use the Visa or Mastercards that they don't use and don't have anyway.

Great reply. Well thought out.
 

lederermc

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2014
897
756
Seattle
So why can Epic just have users buy credits on the web then use them in the app? Sort of like Netflix billing is outside of the IOS apps.
 

Michael Scrip

macrumors 604
Mar 4, 2011
7,931
12,488
NC
So why can Epic just have users buy credits on the web then use them in the app? Sort of like Netflix billing is outside of the IOS apps.

Exactly.

You can't sign up and pay for a subscription inside the Netflix app because they would have to give 30% to Apple. So you can only log-in after you create an account on the web.

Same for Kindle books. You can't buy digital e-books inside the app because Amazon would have to give 30% to Apple. So you have to go buy books on the Amazon website or in the Amazon store app.

Epic has a website and also a software game launcher with a store on the desktop... and you must have an Epic account anyway to play any of their games. So why not let people go online to buy VBucks?

Hell... you can buy Fortnite VBucks gift cards at any store and redeem them online:

fortnite-gift-cards.jpg
 

Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
19,746
22,329
Singapore
Its easy to charge more when nobody has a choice.

Facebook doesn’t pay Apple a cent.

Even DHH, who can’t stop harping about this matter on his Twitter feed, doesn’t pay Apple a cent either. His email app requires users to go to his website to subscribe, so he gets to keep every last cent. What he wants is to be able to make his subscription available from within the app, while not paying Apple a cent.

I made a case in another thread about how, based on my numbers, Apple would need to charge about 20% to break even. What these companies are proposing would drive the cut down to 0%.

But well, the future is a riddle only can answer. Time to go off for class. Another time.
 

mattspace

macrumors 68040
Jun 5, 2013
3,202
2,883
Australia
How can you claim to adopt a socialist perspective if your attitude basically boils down to allowing the rich (Epic and friends) to "pay no taxes"?

Taxes are paid to governments, not to corporations. What Apple is doing is not akin to taxation, it's gate-keeping a privately owned toll road, and what some people don't seem to understand, is that governments can use their eminent domain authority to regulate ANY aspect of pricing for ANY industry.

Usually, they don't, because it's not worth the effort, but that hands-off nature allows people to develop these weird economic "sovereign citizen" ideas that just because a company develops a market, they are in some way immune from government regulation for how the rules of said market operates.

Ok, I see certain merit in that. Although, I would confer of course that Apple's dictatorial control over the store is ultimately what enables the ecosystem to meet certain levels of quality, security and convenience. Apple has a vision and they have build a system that works according to their vision. You propose to remove them from the arbiter position, basically completely deregulating the app market.

If you follow Kosta Eleftheriou on twitter, you'll see that most of the myths of the appstore - that its apps are secure, that they're safe, that they're tested and regulated are just that, myths. What we have now, is regulation theatre.


I can see how that would make sense but I don't believe that the end result will be a better place. A deregulated model as you propose would give too much leeway to predatory data-harvesting companies (that can offer a compelling free product in exchange for user's privacy), would favor the rich and successful developer while penalizing the small indie dev groups and open-source community (because costs for infrastructure services will inevitably rise) and finally, would be a huge setback for user privacy (as users will be forced to divulge and store personal data with multiple groups instead of one central arbiter). This is not socialism. This is brutal wild capitalism.

None of these things are necessitated by allowing a developer to use Paypal, or Fastspring as the payment processor for an app sold in the app store.

Again, the payment processor, the binary download host, and the app review / hash security generation & notarisation are all completely separate functions. Review and hash notarisation are the only part that have any bearing on security, or privacy, and this is even arguable given the sheer overwhelming scale of scam apps on the appstore - not that it seems to be being reported heavily on MR.

I think you are focusing too much on Apple's dictatorial role and not enough on how all little things fit together. Mind, I totally agree that Apple's control of the iOS market needs to be regulated. The ultimate dictatorial power Apple wields cannot be healthy. But I believe that these issues can be addressed without taking away things that makes iOS great: privacy, security, convenience, software quality and low cost of entry for an underprivileged developer.

Nothing in the proposed regulation to allow developers to use their own choice of payment processor has anything to do with changing any of those things. I would expect if Apple is forced to implement it, they may continue to offer payment through Apple as an intermediary, or indeed use it as a way to push adoption of their own credit card, similar to sign on with Apple.

Again, for a small underprivileged developer, selling software independently is radically cheaper than selling through Apple's stores, and gives them the ability to own their customer, to issue refunds, etc. It's telling that whenever Apple talks about what their stores brought to the table, they always speak as if before THEIR appstore, the only channel for developers was boxed physical media - they never compare themselves against the well established shareware world of downloadable software.


I have no idea what the libertarian capitalist-theology agues (or even what it is). I argue that Apple has created a balanced system where successful players support the weaker ones and your are advocating to tear it down
Weaker players are being routinely stomped by Apple, living in constant fear that Apple will cut off their sole revenue & distribution channel, and shut down their entire business, because some barely-literate app reviewer didn't take the time to actually read what the developer wrote in their update.

I'l give you an example from my own experiences - I had a book update stalled by iBooks reviewers, because they said I was referring to my file an *an* "iBook". The description said nothing of the sort - what it actually said was "An update to correct a behaviour in iBooks". Right now, I have two books on the Apple Books preview site with completely incorrect coverart, because Apple's website and processes messed it up after I uploaded it into their system. I can do nothing about it - it's had a support ticket open for weeks, and the problem can be fixed by disabling a single css variable, but there's nothing I can do about it.

It's only the strong players, like Epic and Basecamp, who are able to speak out about it.
 

turbineseaplane

macrumors P6
Mar 19, 2008
15,248
32,855
Weaker players are being routinely stomped by Apple, living in constant fear that Apple will cut off their sole revenue & distribution channel, and shut down their entire business, because some barely-literate app reviewer didn't take the time to actually read what the developer wrote in their update.

Great points

Ben over at Stratechery did a piece a while back where he couldn't even get anyone to go on the record about anything App Store related for fear of retaliation from Apple
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,318
19,336
Taxes are paid to governments, not to corporations. What Apple is doing is not akin to taxation, it's gate-keeping a privately owned toll road, and what some people don't seem to understand, is that governments can use their eminent domain authority to regulate ANY aspect of pricing for ANY industry.

The analogy I was going for is that the revenue fee collected goes towards maintaining infrastructures and services that everyone benefits from. I don't care about Apple profits. I care about the solidarity system that the App Store offers. I don't want that system to be destroyed. For what is worth, split the App Store off as a separate corporate entity and make it non-profit by law. But keep the current success-based financing model and centralized user information.


None of these things are necessitated by allowing a developer to use Paypal, or Fastspring as the payment processor for an app sold in the app store.

Nothing in the proposed regulation to allow developers to use their own choice of payment processor has anything to do with changing any of those things. I would expect if Apple is forced to implement it, they may continue to offer payment through Apple as an intermediary, or indeed use it as a way to push adoption of their own credit card, similar to sign on with Apple.

You are looking at one side of the coin and ignore the other one. I will repeat it again: the current App Store model is centered on successful developers sharing their financial success in order to create infrastructure used by everyone. Third-party payment processors will make this model impossible to maintain, since big devs can avoid paying the fee. Which means that Appel would be forced to restructure their fee system, with all the possible consequences I describe.

Again, for a small underprivileged developer, selling software independently is radically cheaper than selling through Apple's stores, and gives them the ability to own their customer, to issue refunds, etc.

How incredibly naive! Yes, selling itself will be cheaper (you'd pay just 5% instead of 15%). But do you really believe that selling is the only thing? Building up your own store and maintaining it, building and maintaining a distribution system (or paying someone for it), advertisement and customer discovery — do you think these things come for free? You are like this buddy of mine who wanted to build up his own web-store to sell souvenirs from Japan because "Etsy takes 8% and I can have my laptop with the web server run in the closet 24/7 for free".

App Store (and similar marketplaces) were a revolution for a small developer, because they are what enabled the indie dev as a class. I still remember very well how things were before that: and I don't want to go back to those crappy days.


Weaker players are being routinely stomped by Apple, living in constant fear that Apple will cut off their sole revenue & distribution channel, and shut down their entire business, because some barely-literate app reviewer didn't take the time to actually read what the developer wrote in their update.

I'l give you an example from my own experiences - I had a book update stalled by iBooks reviewers, because they said I was referring to my file an *an* "iBook". The description said nothing of the sort - what it actually said was "An update to correct a behaviour in iBooks". Right now, I have two books on the Apple Books preview site with completely incorrect coverart, because Apple's website and processes messed it up after I uploaded it into their system. I can do nothing about it - it's had a support ticket open for weeks, and the problem can be fixed by disabling a single css variable, but there's nothing I can do about it.

It's only the strong players, like Epic and Basecamp, who are able to speak out about it.

These are the real issues, and this is exactly there reason why I say that Apple's control over the store should be weakened and regulated. Again, split it off, make it non-profit, give it transparent statutes, channels of communication and give the final customer a vote in the matters. But don't touch the basic economic model or the unified user account.
 
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mattspace

macrumors 68040
Jun 5, 2013
3,202
2,883
Australia
The analogy I was going for is that the revenue fee collected goes towards maintaining infrastructures and services that everyone benefits from. I don't care about Apple profits. I care about the solidarity system that the App Store offers. I don't want that system to be destroyed. For what is worth, split the App Store off as a separate corporate entity and make it non-profit by law. But keep the current success-based financing model and centralized user information.

Why should developers' incomes be used to pay for a service that is effectively a marketing point for Apple's benefit?

You may as well argue developers should contribute to Apple's expenses for iPhone screens, because without screens, there'd be nowhere for the apps to be seen.

Apple used the app store as a sales point for Apple hardware. Why shouldn't Apple should meet all the costs of that sales point? As it stands, their app store revenue is way, way above cost of service provision. It's a significant profit centre within Apple's "services" revenue.

You are looking at one side of the coin and ignore the other one. I will repeat it again: the current App Store model is centered on successful developers sharing their financial success in order to create infrastructure used by everyone. Third-party payment processors will make this model impossible to maintain, since big devs can avoid paying the fee. Which means that Appel would be forced to restructure their fee system, with all the possible consequences I describe.

Successful developers... But not Apple. Why should Epic pay for Apple's Appstore, when Apple's appstore contributes nothing to the development costs of Fortnite or the Unreal engine? Epic can easily monetise Fortnite without Apple, except that Apple is operating a shakedown racket to try to prevent that.

People have a short memory, but the iPhone was widely criticised when first launched, on the basis of not having 3rd party apps. It was third party apps that made the iPhone special in a world where several companies were offering devices very similar to the iPhone. App developers made the iPhone huge, not Apple.

Apple wants to maintain exclusivity for an appstore that they're not even paying for - it's such a con trick it's not funny. Developers should pay for it, but they can't control it? It's just taxation without representation.

When do 3rd party devs get to kick Apple's apps out of the app store for using private APIs and elevated privacy privileges etc?

How incredibly naive! Yes, selling itself will be cheaper (you'd pay just 5% instead of 15%). But do you really believe that selling is the only thing? Building up your own store and maintaining it, building and maintaining a distribution system (or paying someone for it), advertisement and customer discovery — do you think these things come for free?

No, indy devs routinely put all these things together at around 6% of revenue. The things you have to do to support selling an app independently, guess what, they're the sort of things that developers already know how to do, that's why so many mac developers don't participate in the mac app store.

That should tell you something about how "valuable" Apple's store "service" is. Mac developers, by and large, don't touch it with a barge pole.

App Store (and similar marketplaces) were a revolution for a small developer, because they are what enabled the indie dev as a class. I still remember very well how things were before that: and I don't want to go back to those crappy days.

You're drawing a false correlation by seeing the success of indy devs as being dependent on Apple's app stores, when in fact it's the other way around - the app store is parasitic on indy devs, which is why on macOS where it's not mandatory, it's radically less successful.

The app store did not create the explosion of indy devs (who were already there before the iPhone), allowing 3rd party apps to run on the iPhone created the explosion of indy devs. That Apple required them to use a single store, is coincidental. While a single purchase point might be convenient, it is by no means necessary, and that convenience is primarily of benefit to Apple as a marketing angle.
 
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