ARM based MacBook Pro discussion [merged]

[collin_]

Hi guys. I'm still a bit confused about the Thunderbolt situation. The whole "USB 4" thing aside, let's say that Apple moved to custom ARM processors and a new Thunderbolt 4 was released. Would there be any way that Apple could use it? Or do computers actually need an Intel CPU for Thunderbolt?

 

[cube]

Hi guys. I'm still a bit confused about the Thunderbolt situation. The whole "USB 4" thing aside, let's say that Apple moved to custom ARM processors and a new Thunderbolt 4 was released. Would there be any way that Apple could use it? Or do computers actually need an Intel CPU for Thunderbolt?

The TB chips just connect to PCIe.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

That was a RISC home computer, not a workstation.

They produced several lines, including RISC PC Unix workstations that outperformed up to 5X the Motorola 68K at the same clock speed. If British or European companies like Acorn were better at marketing and attracting developers we would have been using these instead of Macs and PCs. The American companies dominated because they were banked by big connected investors. So for many years in the 90s we had **** x86 and PPC processors instead ARM and we had **** operating systems when we could have had Unix earlier.

 

[cube]

They produced several lines, including RISC PC Unix workstations that outperformed up to 5X the Motorola 68K at the same clock speed. If British or European companies like Acorn were better at marketing and attracting developers we would have been using these instead of Macs and PCs. The American companies dominated because they were banked by big connected investors. So for many years in the 90s we had **** x86 and PPC processors instead ARM and we had **** operating systems when we could have had Unix earlier.

The RISC iX machines do seem like inexpensive workstations.

 

[Farsider]

That only cost up to 1700 pounds.

Sorry. Don’t understand your point.

They made home computer and workstations. What’s price got to do with it?

 

[cube]

Sorry. Don’t understand your point.

They made home computer and workstations. What’s price got to do with it?

This would be a personal computer. A workstation would be first-class professional hardware with a first-class professional OS.

BTW, I don't think workstation PCs exist (x86 junk).

 

[frou]

The whole "USB 4" thing aside, let's say that Apple moved to custom ARM processors and a new Thunderbolt 4 was released. Would there be any way that Apple could use it? Or do computers actually need an Intel CPU for Thunderbolt?

As I recently heard someone say: Money has a way of solving problems.

Apple has more money than God... they can make licensing deals happen.

 

[mavericks7913]

AMD does not make motherboards and it is not really needed for a desktop.

The other vendors don't really care.

lol there are tons of

The TB chips just connect to PCIe.

False. Even you have TB3 chip PCIe card, it wont work.

 

[cube]

lol there are tons of


False. Even you have TB3 chip PCIe card, it wont work.

I did not say you can just plug in a card and it will work, but that the hardware is compatible.

 

[mavericks7913]

I did not say you can just plug in a card and it will work, but that the hardware is compatible.

Compatible but it wont work until Intel allow AMD to use it.

 

[cram501]

The potential benefits would be nice but we'll see if they can reach them. My view is that if Apple moves completely to ARM, this will be the end of the ecosystem as we know it. They will focus on more expensive locked down iPads with keyboards. They may call them Macbooks but they won't be similar and open like they are today. They probably want a generic ipod/ipad/iphone market for mobile computing in their laptop space (or whatever it will be called).

It will lead to end of the professional use of Macs. They are already heading that way anyway.

Intel gets beat up a lot on these forums but:
- Their CPUs are currently the best for most of our uses.
- Apple designed their laptops and should be blamed for any thermal issues. It is not Intels fault.

If the transition takes place, I'm assuming there will be a lot of talk about the good old days when they used Intel chips.

I'll stick the proven Intel environment for now for Windows and Linux (and Mac if they continue on that way).

 

[mavericks7913]

The potential benefits would be nice but we'll see if they can reach them. My view is that if Apple moves completely to ARM, this will be the end of the ecosystem as we know it. They will focus on more expensive locked down iPads with keyboards. They may call them Macbooks but they won't be similar and open like they are today. They probably want a generic ipod/ipad/iphone market for mobile computing in their laptop space (or whatever it will be called).

It will lead to end of the professional use of Macs. They are already heading that way anyway.

Intel gets beat up a lot on these forums but:
- Their CPUs are currently the best for most of our uses.
- Apple designed their laptops and should be blamed for any thermal issues. It is not Intels fault.

If the transition takes place, I'm assuming there will be a lot of talk about the good old days when they used Intel chips.

I'll stick the proven Intel environment for now for Windows and Linux (and Mac if they continue on that way).

It's also Intel's fault. They kept using 14nm process since 2015. This is why current Intel CPUs are overheating so much. In order to cool it down, you need a desktop grade water cooler or Noctua air cooler.

 

[cube]

Compatible but it wont work until Intel allow AMD to use it.

Maybe the Qualcomm ruling will help here.

 

[cram501]

It's also Intel's fault. They kept using 14nm process since 2015. This is why current Intel CPUs are overheating so much. In order to cool it down, you need a desktop grade water cooler or Noctua air cooler.

Apple knew what they were buying. They knew they may not be able to adequately cool them in such a small enclosure. They designed, built, and sold them anyway. Their obsession with thinness is the issue. My old Macbook Early 2013 has throttled from day one if pushed. This isn't a new problem.

Don't blame Intel for an Apple design that cools inadequately.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Don't blame Intel for an Apple design that cools inadequately.

This.

Apple new the thermal constraints and requirements and are the ones that chose to make the thinnest, hardest to cool, chassis they could.

It's 100% on Apple

 

[mavericks7913]

Apple knew what they were buying. They knew they may not be able to adequately cool them in such a small enclosure. They designed, built, and sold them anyway. Their obsession with thinness is the issue. My old Macbook Early 2013 has throttled from day one if pushed. This isn't a new problem.

Don't blame Intel for an Apple design that cools inadequately.

It's a fact that Intel ruined their own CPU line up. Even the desktop versions have overheating issue due to poor architecture design. Then how come non-Mac laptops also have overheating and throttling? Intel had been blamed for a long time and yet you dont even know about this. Technically, Intel increased the clock speed and cores without improving the architecture which is 14nm. This is also why a lot of people trying to remove the heat spreader for better cooling.

Both Apple and Intel are responsible for this.

 

[cram501]

It's a fact that Intel ruined their own CPU line up. Even the desktop versions have overheating issue due to poor architecture design. Then how come non-Mac laptops also have overheating and throttling? Intel had been blamed for a long time and yet you dont even know about this. Technically, Intel increased the clock speed and cores without improving the architecture which is 14nm.

Both Apple and Intel are responsible for this.

Apple isn't the only one trying to jam a CPU into a small space. Other designs also have issues. Some designs don't have issues.

Intel did ignore CPU development for a long time because of their old CEO who focused on IOT and Drones. Their lack of development doesn't invalidate their current CPU designs.

The only people blaming Intel for "a long time" are people that attempt to defend an inadequate cooling solution designed by someone else. Apple makes mistakes and they've been making mistakes in their laptop designs for a while. Both the thermal solution and keyboard are inadequate because of the focus on being slim.

Facts:
- Intel chips run hot for performance reasons
- Apple created a design that may not adequately cool some of the Intel CPUs they use.

How is that Intels fault?

Are you also blaming the manufacturer of the keyboard parts for the keyboard failures?

 

[turbineseaplane]

My very wide car doesn't fit on a narrow road - I blame the maker of the road

lol

 

[mavericks7913]

Apple isn't the only one trying to jam a CPU into a small space. Other designs also have issues. Some designs don't have issues.

Intel did ignore CPU development for a long time because of their old CEO who focused on IOT and Drones. Their lack of development doesn't invalidate their current CPU designs.

The only people blaming Intel for "a long time" are people that attempt to defend an inadequate cooling solution designed by someone else. Apple makes mistakes and they've been making mistakes in their laptop designs for a while. Both the thermal solution and keyboard are inadequate because of the focus on being slim.

Facts:
- Intel chips run hot for performance reasons
- Apple created a design that may not adequately cool some of the Intel CPUs they use.

How is that Intels fault?

Are you also blaming the manufacturer of the keyboard parts for the keyboard failures?

Because even at the same clock and core, the temperature is way higher than AMD Ryzen. Intel chips run hot for performance reasons? Seriously? Do you never think that Intel failed to cool it down while they can increase the performance? That's how Intel Core X failed to compete with AMD Threadripper.

Intel put thermal pastes for a long time on their CPU! Even 9th gen with soldering have problems with the temperature. Gigabyte admitted that Intel 8th gen requires 360mm water cooler in order to use it properly due overheating.

https://www.pcgamer.com/intels-tells-core-i7-7700k-owners-to-stop-overclocking-to-avoid-high-temps/
It's been a long time since Intel CPU had overheating issue and it's not new. And yet, you are ignoring the fact that Intel has a responsibility.

It's also a fact that Intel had been using 14nm since 2015 and they failed to switch to 10nm for a long time. Without improving, it will increase the temperature.

No matter how Apple designed, It's a fact that Intel made hot CPU for a long time. You failed to prove it.

 

[upandown]

I don't care as I don't expect to buy a Mac again.

Then why are you here?

 

[cram501]

No matter how Apple designed, It's a fact that Intel made hot CPU for a long time. You failed to prove it.

Who cares? What has that to do with the price of tea in China?

The CPU is just a component... like the keyboard... like the display... like the ssd... like <insert part here>.

Nobody forced Apple to use those CPUs or design the thermal solution they came up with. They could have chosen to use less powerful CPUs or design a better thermal solution. They chose not to do that in order to remain thin. They have been doing it for years.

My iMac Pro doesn't over heat. My old Mac Mini doesn't over heat. My gaming desktop doesn't overheat (it is water cooled). My other desktop doesn't overheat. My Dell laptop gets hot but doesn't throttle. My ESXI system doesn't overheat running multiple operating systems. There are a few others I use for things like pfsense and utility functions. All have Intel CPUs.

I like Apple products and have been using them since the 80's but I won't make excuses for them when I see an issue.

 

[mavericks7913]

Who cares? What has that to do with the price of tea in China?

The CPU is just a component... like the keyboard... like the display... like the ssd... like <insert part here>.

Nobody forced Apple to use those CPUs or design the thermal solution they came up with. They could have chosen to use less powerful CPUs or design a better thermal solution. They chose not to do that in order to remain thin. They have been doing it for years.

My iMac Pro doesn't over heat. My old Mac Mini doesn't over heat. My gaming desktop doesn't overheat (it is water cooled). My other desktop doesn't overheat. My Dell laptop gets hot but doesn't throttle. My ESXI system doesn't overheat running multiple operating systems. There are a few others I use for things like pfsense and utility functions. All have Intel CPUs.

I like Apple products and have been using them since the 80's but I won't make excuses for them when I see an issue.

There is only one CPU that Apple can use which is Intel lol. Obviously.

Your experience does not represent all data. Check google about it.

 

[turbineseaplane]

We done with that little back and forth now?

 

[cram501]

There is only one CPU that Apple can use which is Intel lol. Obviously.

Your experience does not represent all data. Check google about it.

I wasn't aware that Intel only made ONE CPU. My bad.
[doublepost=1558559383][/doublepost]

We done with that little back and forth now?

Yeah, I'll stop. I apologize. I should have stopped earlier.

It will be interesting to see if Apple can come up with a competitive ARM cpu and see what they do with it. They have the money to do it.

 

[mavericks7913]

I wasn't aware that Intel only made ONE CPU. My bad.
[doublepost=1558559383][/doublepost]

Yeah, I'll stop. I apologize. I should have stopped earlier.

It will be interesting to see if Apple can come up with a competitive ARM cpu and see what they do with it. They have the money to do it.

Is there any other manufacturer for laptop CPU who can provide better performance dude?