Authoritarian style moderation at MacRumors

[Fruit Stand]

Hello there,

I've been visiting, reading and recently joined this site a few years ago. I used to love visiting this site and recently the quality of posts have seriously declined with little to no moderation when folks step out of the guidelines of respect and understanding and need to be called out.

There are members on this site that laugh at the Apple Watch Unity band as if it is some "woke" gesture when it is recognizing the struggle and progress of African-American folks yet it goes unchecked for example yet my posts calling out someone for being absolutely rude or calling out MacRumors for being terrible at its moderation of things goes noticed and I get a private message telling me I was "off-topic".

Last time I checked, every forum I have ever been on including Guru3D, NeoWin, 9to5Mac and pretty much any where else it is completely okay to call out something or someone as long as it is not using vulgar language nor putting someone down. This is the point of a forum so that discussions can take place organically and naturally yet it seems like MacRumors likes to police what we can talk about and where it can be talked about as if it we are under big brother authoritarian regime.

It seems like this website has literally gone down the drain terms of quality and I will personally go out of my way to contact your sponsors to highlight this unearthly way of going about things. You're literally going to lose your loyal followers and reads by conducting your selves like this.

If you cannot moderate your website, maybe shut it down or invest properly in moderation processes and resources so that moderation can take place more appropriately and not in a dictatorship fashion where discussion is immediately quashed by deleting posts and private messaging users without any recourse.

I am going to stop reading this site and will not suggest anyone else give it a visit any further. It is a shame that this how things have gotten in this community.

 

[floral]

There is no such thing as a perfect, unbiased human being. Everyone (in this case, every moderator) has an amount of opinion on every member, but most are very good at masking it online. And, I have to agree that MacRumors tends to be on the strict side, though this is because this website specializes in rumors. Volatile, unstable rumors that often spark a lot of controversy. So it's only natural that they'd take moderation very seriously. And in your situation, I think the moderators did the right thing here. I mean, yeah, the first one is a bit of a stretch, but I don't think ranting about this website while using terms like "b1tch fest" and "absolutely ridiculous" in an Apple Watch help thread is intended...

I hope you find a lot more enjoyment in the other sites you mentioned. And, even though I've gotten a few reminders, this site hasn't lost me as a loyal follower. Who knows - maybe a few other people don't know how to take criticism.

 

[FreakinEurekan]

Posting that someone is rude/etc., is just adding to the problem. Use the “Report” link and tell it to the mods - putting it in the actual forum, just fosters additional arguments.

 

[laptech]

Posting that someone is rude/etc., is just adding to the problem. Use the “Report” link and tell it to the mods - putting it in the actual forum, just fosters additional arguments.

That doesn't actually work but I cannot talk about it because it will break forum rules on discussing things about moderation and moderators.

 

[floral]

That doesn't actually work but I cannot talk about it because it will break forum rules on discussing things about moderation and moderators.

I don't see any rule about not talking about moderation, in fact the FAQ section says you can talk about it here:

https://macrumors.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/201846748-Where-do-I-post-comments-about-moderation-

Another bit of evidence that you can post about it here is that this thread hasn't been archived (instead, it was edited by a moderator to remove the notices that the OP got)

 

[Weaselboy]

That doesn't actually work but I cannot talk about it because it will break forum rules on discussing things about moderation and moderators.

Allow me to clarify...

You are welcome to post general questions about moderation in this forum. But we don't allow discussion of specific moderation events involving your account, unless you waive your right to privacy so we can respond.

That FAQ link @floral posted explains a bit more.

 

[chown33]

Here's the complete list of Moderation FAQs:

https://macrumors.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/sections/200309177

Here's the one regarding posting about specific moderation:

https://macrumors.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/201294976-Is-moderation-handled-privately-

 

[laptech]

Allow me to clarify...

You are welcome to post general questions about moderation in this forum. But we don't allow discussion of specific moderation events involving your account, unless you waive your right to privacy so we can respond.

That FAQ link @floral posted explains a bit more.

Like I said, it does not work because sometimes it get a point across so others can see what is going on so a constructive debate can be had, evidence of what is being discussed needs to be provided but as soon as one does so the posts gets removed for 'discussing moderation' because you mod's don't want to spend the time making sure a constructive debate is going on, you'd rather shut down the debate ASAP citing 'rules'. So like I said, it does not work.

 

[Weaselboy]

Like I said, it does not work because sometimes it get a point across so others can see what is going on so a constructive debate can be had, evidence of what is being discussed needs to be provided but as soon as one does so the posts gets removed for 'discussing moderation' because you mod's don't want to spend the time making sure a constructive debate is going on, you'd rather shut down the debate ASAP citing 'rules'. So like I said, it does not work.

If you post about something you were moderated for, and waive your right to privacy so we can respond, the post will not be removed.

If there is something specific to your account you would like to discuss, you can start a new thread here. Just be sure to waive in the post.

 

[poorcody]

I once had a comment deleted by a moderator for some reason I could never decipher. I decided moderation was an impossible job so I just chalked it up as a mistake or misread and moved on. (It was about Covid so you know how complicated that is.)

Moderation rules are good, but there is so much subjectivity in people's intent and tone that it is never going to satisfy everyone anyone. That being said, I feel these forums are one of the best corners of the internet for quality discussion (hence why we like discussing non-Apple things here as well) so whatever they're doing, I say keep at it. And I show my appreciation with a paid membership.

 

[chown33]

From the link I posted above:

https://macrumors.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/201294976-Is-moderation-handled-privately-

You can waive your right to moderation privacy when all of the following conditions apply and you'd prefer a public discussion rather than asking privately via the contact form:

1. When posting in the Site and Forum Feedback forum, either as a new thread or in an existing thread where it would be appropriate for the thread topic.
2. If you say explicitly that you give us permission to discuss the reasons behind your moderation. This includes your previous forum record, since that may be a factor.
3. If the purpose of waiving your moderation privacy is to gain an answer or insights to a question that may be of interest to other members.

Please read the entire FAQ, as there are examples that may be informative.

 

[chown33]

I once had a comment deleted by a moderator for some reason I could never decipher.

You can always use the Contact form to ask for clarification.

 

[laptech]

From the link I posted above:

https://macrumors.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/201294976-Is-moderation-handled-privately-

Please read the entire FAQ, as there are examples that may be informative.

No.2 if your safety net for not having people discuss in public why they were moderated because of the chances that the moderation team will try to bring up past cases from many years ago as a way to embarrass and silence the member 'But look what member did 6 years ago, they did this and had to be moderated, they wrote this, can you not see how things have not changed' or words to hat effect.

Yes you allow people to talk about moderation if they waive their right to privacy but you have done it it in such a way that would put members at unease so they would not take the option of waiving their right to privacy. I'm not stupid, I've been a moderator of another platform before so I know EXACTLY how it works. You give users the right talk about moderation put conditions in place that would get them to not waive their right to privacy. MR is no different.

 

[Fruit Stand]

First of all, every single one of the messages I have gotten from a moderator has closed immediately and there is no ability to respond. Offering in your response to use the contact form and read the FAQs is not a good out for you and the MR team, frankly its a bit condescending and completely invalidating.

You can see here multiple people agree with my post and the point I raise in this thread. I work in elected got in one of the most open democracies in the world and this style of moderation and these rules are draconian and authoritarian in every form and fashion.

You shut down discussion as soon as it deviates from the original topic which prevents organic discussion and for people to try and understand each other's perspectives and differences. You're not fostering a community but rather a place where you only those who agree and those who agree with your opinions and perspectives are allowed to foster a discussion.

It's absolutely sad that this is how this site is run because it is such a successful site and I know this will eventually deter people away from the site as time goes on. It's happened to many other sites and will happen here.

And I posted this here and included screenshots my self which means I WAIVED my privacy right. What a whole lot of bologna.

I am out! Forget this site and its nonsense. 9to5Mac has got their stuff down to a T and always has.

 

[icanhazmac]

and I will personally go out of my way to contact your sponsors to highlight this unearthly way of going about things

Have fun with that, I doubt that MR has "sponsors" as the word is defined, they have advertisers, I'm sure Anker and Nanoleaf are anxiously awaiting your call.

and not in a dictatorship fashion where discussion is immediately quashed by deleting posts and private messaging users without any recourse.

Their site, their rules, it is really as simple as that. Based on your post I don't think you were here to offer constructive feedback to MR, what I get is that you want the site moderated to your personal liking and nothing short of that will make you happy.

The great thing about life and the 1nt4rw3bz is there are lots of choices, OR you can make your site and run it as you see fit.

P.S. - There is recourse to moderation via the contact form, just not the way you want it.

I used to love visiting this site and recently the quality of posts have seriously declined with little to no moderation when folks step out of the guidelines of respect and understanding and need to be called out.

Don't know what articles you are reading but I see lots of moderation here at MR when threads go awry. I don't always agree with some of the choices and I have voiced my concerns via the appropriate channels but in the end I signed up to be a member of their community and need to follow their rules. If I find I don't like it anymore I will leave, without climbing on my soapbox.

 

[laptech]

Their site, their rules, it is really as simple as that. Based on your post I don't think you were here to offer constructive feedback to MR, what I get is that you want the site moderated to your personal liking and nothing short of that will make you happy.

Yes, their site their rules but that does not mean as members we should just stay quiet and capitulate to how they do things. Not being able to publicly challenge the decisions they make shows that they are afraid of public criticism of their decision making and yes as you will probably point out, their decisions can be publicly criticised but it comes with a caveat which is that they can use your posting history against you. Not exactly a fair and honest way to deal with criticism now is it.

 

[icanhazmac]

Yes, their site their rules but that does not mean as members we should just stay quiet and capitulate to how they do things.

Agreed, as I stated I have challenged moderation here via the appropriate channels before and discussed moderation in general in this forum many times.

However, in the end, you will capitulate to how they choose to do things, like it or not. I imagine that if the rules here annoy you enough you will leave, I would do the same.

Not being able to publicly challenge the decisions they make shows that they are afraid of public criticism of their decision making and yes as you will probably point out, their decisions can be publicly criticised but it comes with a caveat which is that they can use your posting history against you. Not exactly a fair and honest way to deal with criticism now is it.

You can publicly challenge moderation in general right here in S&FF.

As for specific instances of moderation... this is not a democracy, their site, their rules. As stated above you can make suggestions but in the end....

On the topic of ones moderation history. I think the only time your past history is relevant is when discussing suspensions. If you violate the rules occasionally you get a reminder, if you violate the rules daily you get a vacation (suspension), your history is very relevant to provide context, why would you think otherwise?

 

[Apple_Robert]

Yes, their site their rules but that does not mean as members we should just stay quiet and capitulate to how they do things. Not being able to publicly challenge the decisions they make shows that they are afraid of public criticism of their decision making and yes as you will probably point out, their decisions can be publicly criticised but it comes with a caveat which is that they can use your posting history against you. Not exactly a fair and honest way to deal with criticism now is it.

Arn and the staff have always allowed honest criticism of the site as well as the moderation thereof. There have also been a few times where specific moderation was discussed with a member who waived his right.

I agree with the policy of privately discussing a member's moderation question or citation, unless a waive has been declared. It is no one else's business that member x got cited for a violation by a moderator, and was subsequently challenged by he member to higher up the staff chain. Openly discussing every member discipline leads to chaos, animosity, confusion, and creates needless drama that can further tie-up the staff and cause problems.

This site is much more than a forum. It is Arn's business and livelihood. As such, he has the right to see to it that the site runs smoothly without undue drama that detracts and taints the reputation of the site.

Moderation is never done in a vacuum. There are checks and balances every step of the way.

Not every member is going to agree with the rules as administered and that is to be expected. An imperfect staff dealing with imperfect members guarantees honest mistakes will be made from time to time. I think what people need to focus on is reporting posts that may be in violation. If the staff decides there was no foul, move forward with life. And if one still has a question, use" the contact us" option to speak with the staff.

 

[KaliYoni]

My opinion: If MR became a site where acrimony was the norm because "calling people out" was the main activity in discussions, minimizing and belittling people by calling them names or epithets was allowed, or polemics about the Terms of Service and moderation were not limited to the Site and Forum Feedback board, I would no longer use MR. Twitter, Reddit, and countless other online combat zones already exist; I have no need for a Mac-focused one.

 

[antiprotest]

As someone who has received a number of love letters from mods, I would like to say that the mods are friendly and perfect, completely fair and non-threatening. It has always been my fault and I would never do it again please mods please forgive me dont ban me ididn't mean it iwas just joking help im sorry

 

[floral]

First of all, every single one of the messages I have gotten from a moderator has closed immediately and there is no ability to respond. Offering in your response to use the contact form and read the FAQs is not a good out for you and the MR team, frankly its a bit condescending and completely invalidating.

Keep in mind that the moderator who just moderated you, would probably be too involved to answer something like "Please unban me!" or "I didn't do anything wrong" so it's more useful to assign a random moderator to any requests as a third opinion.

You can see here multiple people agree with my post and the point I raise in this thread. I work in elected got in one of the most open democracies in the world and this style of moderation and these rules are draconian and authoritarian in every form and fashion.

I don't see anybody agreeing with you, the closest thing I can see is me and @poorcody disagreeing with you but understanding where you're coming from. : P

You shut down discussion as soon as it deviates from the original topic which prevents organic discussion and for people to try and understand each other's perspectives and differences. You're not fostering a community but rather a place where you only those who agree and those who agree with your opinions and perspectives are allowed to foster a discussion.

There's nothing wrong with having a small side convo on something like a macOS thread while staying on topic (such as "By the way, I like your wallpaper" at the end of the message) but if you want a full offtopic conversation then Community Discussion would likely be the best place for it.

It's absolutely sad that this is how this site is run because it is such a successful site and I know this will eventually deter people away from the site as time goes on. It's happened to many other sites and will happen here.

I'm no psychic, but I think this site can only improve in the future if it's as bad as you're describing now. If you do decide to come back, you'll probably have a much better time ^-^

And I posted this here and included screenshots my self which means I WAIVED my privacy right. What a whole lot of bologna.

Talking about the notices you received is perfectly fine, but the reminders you got are meant for you only, so if you copy the entire reminder or post a picture of it then it'll probably be removed because there's such thing as waiving too much privacy...

I am out! Forget this site and its nonsense. 9to5Mac has got their stuff down to a T and always has.

Okay, bye again! We hope you have a much better stay at 9to5Mac.

 

[I7guy]

First of all, every single one of the messages I have gotten from a moderator has closed immediately and there is no ability to respond. Offering in your response to use the contact form and read the FAQs is not a good out for you and the MR team, frankly its a bit condescending and completely invalidating.

You can see here multiple people agree with my post and the point I raise in this thread. I work in elected got in one of the most open democracies in the world and this style of moderation and these rules are draconian and authoritarian in every form and fashion.

You shut down discussion as soon as it deviates from the original topic which prevents organic discussion and for people to try and understand each other's perspectives and differences. You're not fostering a community but rather a place where you only those who agree and those who agree with your opinions and perspectives are allowed to foster a discussion.

It's absolutely sad that this is how this site is run because it is such a successful site and I know this will eventually deter people away from the site as time goes on. It's happened to many other sites and will happen here.

And I posted this here and included screenshots my self which means I WAIVED my privacy right. What a whole lot of bologna.

I am out! Forget this site and its nonsense. 9to5Mac has got their stuff down to a T and always has.

You are certainly within your rights to not post here going forward. However, these discussions about moderation can be predictable.

You may not have been around but prior to the discontinuance of PRSI, there were many open discussions of moderation that were had, with the admins explaining their positions. The staff has been generous in allowing discussions of overall site policy, moderation and suggestions. Discussion of specific moderation has been disallowed as long as I can remember except when right to privacy has been waived.

You use the word "organic discussion" and it sounds like it means I want the ability to say anything anywhere. That's not quite the way MacRumors works. You are welcome to state your opinion in a way that meets the overall rules. It's obvious from these posts many do not understand what it means to post on MacRumors. Additionally there are many repeat criticisms against the moderation policy. At some point in time, agree to the system or move on.

The site is run very well, imo. The rules prevent the type of personal attacks and personal bickering that occurs on other sites. If that type of discussion is what you are looking for. MacRumors isn't the place for you.

It is not "absolutely sad" the way is site is run and I doubt that "MacRumors is doomed" because you don't like the user agreement and moderation.

Sorry to say, it's a childish thing to say.

 

[I7guy]

Yes, their site their rules but that does not mean as members we should just stay quiet and capitulate to how they do things.

At some point, one has to decide if they are constantly butting heads with moderated posts and the rules they have to decide if posting on MacRumors is for them. Of course, this forum is about providing site feedback of a general nature. Posting one doesn't like the moderation and wanting the site to be moderated their way, will never happen.

Not being able to publicly challenge the decisions they make shows that they are afraid of public criticism of their decision making and yes as you will probably point out,

Not sure where your information is coming from, but general site comments, including the user agreement as well as specific instances of moderation can be discussed by following the proper procedures.

their decisions can be publicly criticised but it comes with a caveat which is that they can use your posting history against you.

Because your posting history is the basis of how current reports against your posts go. MacRumors works on an escalating scale of breaking the more stringent rules. Such as political content outside the political forum, insults, trolling and the like.

Not exactly a fair and honest way to deal with criticism now is it.

People have posted some very harsh things regarding operations of the site and staff and those posts still stand. People haven't figured out to post and get their point across in a way that meets with the user agreements.

 

[Gigolo Joe]

Authoritarian style moderation?

recently the quality of posts have seriously declined with little to no moderation when folks step out of the guidelines of respect and understanding and need to be called out.

Irony abounds..

 

[MrCheeto]

I think one has to consider the other forum sites out there. If you see the kind of discourse and mayhem they devolve into, you will come back here feeling a lot more thankful.

Other forums such as those for car builders, bicyclists, R/C hobbies or engineering etc. have few mods as it is but on top of that they are living their life and indulging in such hobbies. This forum is lucky in that being in front of the computer is actually the hobby itself. While others are bicycling, welding, riding motorcycles, surfing, vacationing, attending their regular job, caring for family and kids, taking trips to see loved-ones or just generally hanging with friends the mods are here keeping things beyond squeaky clean.

Even if this weren't true, consider again that the mods do it for no compensation at all. Imagine any other group of "civil servants" taking out this much trash for free and then add on top of that the fights and disagreements that they have to resolve or get entangled in.

Those people picking up trash on the highway are probably not doing it because they know what kind of difference it makes. It's normally a form of punishment for a reason.