Babysitting an operating system

[maflynn]

That's the freedom of choice right?

Indeed, and while the OP wants to think that Windows is a train wreck, I'm sure people dealing with the instability of Catalina would say the same thing. Bottom line, its a personal choice and there really isn't any right or wrong answer.

If you're happy with Macs, great, maybe Linux is your thing, more power to you. Windows is quite popular for many reasons so you're good with that as well. Freedom of choice is the best and the competition allows all options to rise to the occasion. If it wasn't for the success of the Surface Pro, we'd probably not see a stylus for the iPad or the iPad pro, nor would you see it getting mouse support so again competition is improving all things.

Sorry, I don't have time for toddlerOS

If windows is a toddler os, then MS is doing something outstanding given that its running on 88% of the computers

 

[c0ppo]

I would / could never pay for a Windows Laptop these days - just too many problems with them (as you're seeing) - especially if the laptop is under $2k (even those above!) - just seems like a mess. That's why built my own PC.

I would disagree with this statement. I've used X1E 1st gen for quite some time now. Never had any issues, not with Windows, or Linux. It's more robust and better thermals than any mac. Even MBP 16. And it's lighter then those, with simply excellent keyboard, not just compared to apples rubbish keyboards.

Of course there are lousy laptops out there, even if you pay 2000$+. Dell for example has really nice looking laptops. But IMHO, they are complete rubbish quality wise. In our company most problems come out of Dells laptops.

For 1599$ I've bought off ebay X1E 2nd gen. It arrived yesterdey. 4K HDR screen, 16GB RAM (already updated to 32GB), 1TB SSD (added additional 2TB drive in second nvme slot), 1650 GPU. Quality wise, this laptop is a beast.

Now, I love Mac OS. I love Linux as well. Not a big fan of Windows. But all 3 work great for me I guess. Mac OS being my favorite just because Linux lacks certain apps I really do need for my work. Whould I purchase MBP again? Sure, in a instant. Just because of Mac OS. But with that gimmicky touch bar, nope. I hate it with all my guts, it gets in my way when I work, it's annoying and stupid idea. At least to me.

It's always great to have options. And not all Windows laptops suck, but most of them do, I agree with that.

 

[BigMcGuire]

I would disagree with this statement. I've used X1E 1st gen for quite some time now. Never had any issues, not with Windows, or Linux. It's more robust and better thermals than any mac. Even MBP 16. And it's lighter then those, with simply excellent keyboard, not just compared to apples rubbish keyboards.

...

It's always great to have options. And not all Windows laptops suck, but most of them do, I agree with that.

One of these days I really need to get me one of these X1 carbons people keep talking so highly about!

 

[c0ppo]

One of these days I really need to get me one of these X1 carbons people keep talking so highly about!

I own X1C (my wife uses it), and X1E (extreme). Tried my luck with XMG laptop brand (Mag-15 in USA). Those are some great laptops, Intel designed them. And by great I mean really great. But under Linux they are not so great, so returned mine, purchased X1E again.

What can I say... Last 24h have been a joy typing on this thing (I'm a programmer). And believe me, these things are rugged beasts. Some don't like their industrial designs, but I do. But no matter if you like their design or not, everyone can appreciate their build quality and keyboards. In that area, I really don't see any competition to thinkpads.

 

[lcseds]

OP came to stir a pot. Daily updates? Discredits the whole thread.

 

[LeeW]

Why did I have to remove Microsoft's version of the nVidia drivers and manually install nVidia's version of the nVidia drivers..

Someone can correct me here if I am wrong but as I understood it, Microsoft doesn't have Nvidia drivers as such, they have a 'pointer' to drivers that work when a new device is plugged in or detected. Nvidia or whoever provides that pointer, Microsoft simply it follows it and downloads the driver to get your device working.

That is not to say it is the best driver for your device unless you did as you have and went to Nvidia to get the most up to date ones.

I can believe that you had several updates in quick succession though. I found that recently when I had to reinstall W10P as I upgraded my main NVMe to 1TB. When remembering that missing piece of software and installing it, it did result in Windows pulling other updates that were required as a result of installs I just completed. That may be why.

It is certainly not the norm though. Since I completed the whole setup after changing the drive there have been no other updates. Well, other than lots of definition updates but they do not require a reboot and are done silently.

 

[revmacian]

I completely agree. That's why I too left macOS's fisher price behind and moved to Windows, a working man's OS!

Seriously though. You never did tell us, what hardware are you using? I'm going to parrot some of the other posters, and guess you went and bought some low end HP or Toshiba laptop, and are blaming Microsoft for the OEM's poor implementation.

Like BigMcGuire, I also spent around $1000 on a PC, and I've never had any issues that weren't related to some just-released hardware with immature drivers. Really, Windows 10 is one of the most stable OS's I've used - far superior to Catalina or iOS, IMO.

Actually this is a Microsoft Surface Book. I like that you can detach the screen and use it as a tablet. It has two batteries; one in the tablet portion and one in the base (keyboard portion). It's a nice design and the combined batteries last a long time. I normally build my own machines and install Linux or BSD, but this laptop was a gift and is used to edit video for work. On a positive note, Davinci Resolve runs great on this laptop and chews through videos like they're nothing.

 

[MacBH928]

I completely agree. That's why I too left macOS's fisher price behind and moved to Windows, a working man's OS!

Seriously though. You never did tell us, what hardware are you using? I'm going to parrot some of the other posters, and guess you went and bought some low end HP or Toshiba laptop, and are blaming Microsoft for the OEM's poor implementation.

Like BigMcGuire, I also spent around $1000 on a PC, and I've never had any issues that weren't related to some just-released hardware with immature drivers. Really, Windows 10 is one of the most stable OS's I've used - far superior to Catalina or iOS, IMO.

May I ask if you are now moved over to Windows and happy with the Windows world and the "working man's OS" why are you on a MacRumors forums?

I have been using MacOS for near 2 decades spanning the time from XP, Vista, 7,8 and Win10 and the OS has been rock stable for me. Sure, new releases like any software are kind of buggy but you don't have to live on the cutting edge. You can always postpone updating 6-8 months.

I love Windows 10 with my screaming fast machine and I'm happier than heck right now. I love that I can grab my MBP if I want Mac OS and I love my blazing desktop with my 4k Samsung monitor.

You seem to be implying the Windows 10 is faster than MacOS, I believe speed is related to hardware specs, do you think the Win10 is faster than MacOS?

 

[revmacian]

I can believe that you had several updates in quick succession though. I found that recently when I had to reinstall W10P as I upgraded my main NVMe to 1TB. When remembering that missing piece of software and installing it, it did result in Windows pulling other updates that were required as a result of installs I just completed. That may be why.

That may have been it. The person who gifted this laptop to me installed Windows, but I always reinstall the operating system on any machine I receive so I know it hasn't been tampered with. The reinstall may have pulled in updates in quick succession and they seemed daily to me. Thanks for that info.

After this edit work is completed I'll wipe the SSD and install Linux or BSD. I'll have to edit and compile my own kernel but I'm comfortable doing that.

 

[BigMcGuire]

You seem to be implying the Windows 10 is faster than MacOS, I believe speed is related to hardware specs, do you think the Win10 is faster than MacOS?

I think Mac OS tries to smooth out ui operations via animations - things that Windows 10 doesn't do. So in the aspect of UI usage, Windows 10 can seem faster.

As far as pure number crunching abilities, Linux will always have an advantage there. I think Mac OS is a lot more efficient with resources and with identical hardware should theoretically get higher benchmarks/crunches.

My comments were specifically to my hardware only - my beloved 2017 MBP 13' TB vs a system I just built last month (AMD 3600x with 64GB of 3200 ram and 2 1TB NVME drives) - the fastest thing I've ever used.

 

[thejadedmonkey]

May I ask if you are now moved over to Windows and happy with the Windows world and the "working man's OS" why are you on a MacRumors forums?

I have been using MacOS for near 2 decades spanning the time from XP, Vista, 7,8 and Win10 and the OS has been rock stable for me. Sure, new releases like any software are kind of buggy but you don't have to live on the cutting edge. You can always postpone updating 6-8 months.

I've been using macOS since 10.3, 2004 or so. I write Windows apps in my spare time, and game, and have had a PC since forever. And I work for a company that gives all of their developers macs, so I'm on a mac about 8 hours a day.

I'm not very active on these forums anymore. Apple lost me when they quoted me "twelve sixty seven" to fix a fan (and I don't mean 12 dollars and 67 cents) but I'm still here.

 

[topcat001]

The NT (Windows) kernel is pretty solid and stable. It was designed to be on par with UNIX, which I think it largely achieves. Most of the issues are at a higher GUI level or drivers. I have a rather diverse collection of systems at home, some of them Windows. Ironically, my Surface Pro is the least stable. I have a few PCs running Windows Server which are pretty stable. However, depending on the hardware (and 3rd party software) stability can vary wildly.

 

[maflynn]

I would / could never pay for a Windows Laptop these days - just too many problems with them (as you're seeing) - especially if the laptop is under $2k (even those above!) - just seems like a mess. That's why built my own PC.

I have to disagree, I've owned a number of windows laptops over the years and many of them have been solid. My prior laptop the ThinkPad X1E was probably the best all around laptop I've owned since my MBP 2012 model. Its funny, pound for pound, when I bought that, I paid in the low 2k range, and at the time a similarly configured MBP would have run in the 4k range. Talk about the Apple Tax. Anyways, I've moved on to a Razer, not inexpensive as the X1E, but it has a better GPU and to be honest, I love the design.

You can certainly find some poor laptops, to be sure, but you can great a great machine for under 2k

I found that recently when I had to reinstall W10P as I upgraded my main NVMe to 1TB. When remembering that missing piece of software and installing it, it did result in Windows pulling other updates that were required as a result of installs I just completed.

Yeah, that does happen, I don't know if MS updates its builds from their download page as often as Apple, or maybe they could package their updates in a way to allow reinstalls to only download one large cumulative update. Not a huge deal, but it would improve things a bit - of course, I rarely reinstall windows, so its kind of a moot point

 

[revmacian]

So, now it appears that I was correct about the apparently frequent updates. In the future I believe it would be beneficial for the know-it-all folks to keep quiet until they have all of the facts. It's sad that there are so many people who are too quick to jump in and criticize others without knowing what is happening.

 

[maflynn]

So, now it appears that I was correct about the frequent updates. In the future I believe it would be beneficial for the know-it-all folks to keep quiet until they have all of the facts..

Well, technically its not daily updates, but rather virus definitions and if you're reinstalling windows, yeah, you will get a long list of updates

Seems kind of odd to start a thread complaining and being a bit inflammatory and then telling people to stay quiet ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edit: I will also add that I think many of us made some strong points to say that windows isn't a train wreck. It may not be your cup of tea, and that's fine, we're all different and one size doesn't fit all, but its a fine, stable OS

 

[BigMcGuire]

I know this for sure... Of all the laptops I've owned and fixed (15+ years of IT) - I've lucked out on quality Windows laptops! . Probably doesn't help I was a Dell Loyalist for most of those years. I'll take the word of those of you who corrected me - thank you. I'm sure loving my Windows desktop.

Happy Saturday to all - stay safe this weekend!

 

[revmacian]

I know this for sure... Of all the laptops I've owned and fixed (15+ years of IT) - I've lucked out on quality Windows laptops! . Probably doesn't help I was a Dell Loyalist for most of those years. I'll take the word of those of you who corrected me - thank you. I'm sure loving my Windows desktop.

Happy Saturday to all - stay safe this weekend!

This Microsoft Surface Book is a really nice laptop.. Microsoft just needs to work out a few more annoyances. There are some apps I need to quit in order to detach the tablet from the base: Mail, LockApp, YourPhone, Text Input. These apps run on startup and I never use them.. they aren't in the Startup Apps window either. I tried to uninstall the YourPhone app but there doesn't seem to be a way to do it. Having a laptop that you can detach the screen and have it become a fully working tablet is a nice idea.

 

[c0ppo]

This Microsoft Surface Book is a really nice laptop.. Microsoft just needs to work out a few more annoyances. There are some apps I need to quit in order to detach the tablet from the base: Mail, LockApp, YourPhone, Text Input. These apps run on startup and I never use them.. they aren't in the Startup Apps window either. I tried to uninstall the YourPhone app but there doesn't seem to be a way to do it. Having a laptop that you can detach the screen and have it become a fully working tablet is a nice idea.

Run this command as admin in PowerShell:

iex ((New-Object System.Net.WebClient).DownloadString('https://git.io/debloat'))

When app starts, don't just click unbloat. Whitelist some things that you use. Disable Cortana if you don't use it. Simply just use this script.

Watch your win10 become way more debloated and lighter. You will feel the difference.

 

[revmacian]

Run this command as admin in PowerShell:

iex ((New-Object System.Net.WebClient).DownloadString('https://git.io/debloat'))

When app starts, don't just click unbloat. Whitelist some things that you use. Disable Cortana if you don't use it. Simply just use this script.

Watch your win10 become way more debloated and lighter. You will feel the difference.

Thank you, that was super helpful! I doubt I ever would have figured all of that out.
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@c0ppo After running that command and restarting.. I no longer have to kill a bunch of apps in order to detach the tablet! You ROCK!

 

[c0ppo]

Thank you, that was super helpful! I doubt I ever would have figured all of that out.
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@c0ppo After running that command and restarting.. I no longer have to kill a bunch of apps in order to detach the tablet! You ROCK!

It's not my command, I didn't make that little script. I just found it online, don't even remember where. Thank the author of that script.

I have my own modified version locally as portable app that I use after any major Windows update.

 

[sracer]

Over the last 20 years I have used Linux, BSD and OS X (now macOS) as my primary operating systems. I had an app crash one time in macOS and that was due to trying to use an app that I knew wasn't supported - my bad. Over the past 2 weeks I have been trying to learn Microsoft Windows and I keep running into issues that are fixed by rebooting the PC - I've had to reboot this machine 4 times just today. Going from a Lamborghini to a Volkswagen can be quite frustrating.


View attachment 906574

What version of Windows? What hardware? What software is running when the problems occur?

If you have to reboot your PC 4 times a day there is something wrong with that particular system (not something generally applicable to Windows)... faulty RAM... corrupted executable files... faulty device driver... poorly coded application.

 

[revmacian]

What version of Windows? What hardware? What software is running when the problems occur?

If you have to reboot your PC 4 times a day there is something wrong with that particular system (not something generally applicable to Windows)... faulty RAM... corrupted executable files... faulty device driver... poorly coded application.

This is a Microsoft Surface Book (Intel Core i7, 16GB RAM, 512GB SSD)
Running Windows 10 Pro (version 1909, Os Build 18363.778)
I reinstalled the OS after receiving the laptop and the only things I've installed are Firefox, Davinci Resolve, nVidia drivers and gimp 2.10. I was careful during the Windows 10 installation to accept the defaults for everything and I only uninstalled junk like Candy Crush, Solitaire, Xbox stuff, etc.

The bloat removal script that c0ppo linked seems to have resolve almost all of the problems. Perhaps some of the bloatware was causing the issues.

 

[c0ppo]

The bloat removal script that c0ppo linked seems to have resolve almost all of the problems. Perhaps some of the bloatware was causing the issues.

It's not just visible bloatware, but also some legacy stuff for developers and ancient apps that 99,99% of users won't ever use or need. And even if you do, that ancient app will install that staff that is needed anyway.

So whoever wrote that script really took their time to list (almost) all of that stuff. And he knew exactly what he was doing.

 

[sracer]

This is a Microsoft Surface Book (Intel Core i7, 16GB RAM, 512GB SSD)
Running Windows 10 Pro (version 1909, Os Build 18363.778)
I reinstalled the OS after receiving the laptop and the only things I've installed are Firefox, Davinci Resolve, nVidia drivers and gimp 2.10. I was careful during the Windows 10 installation to accept the defaults for everything and I only uninstalled junk like Candy Crush, Solitaire, Xbox stuff, etc.

The bloat removal script that c0ppo linked seems to have resolve almost all of the problems. Perhaps some of the bloatware was causing the issues.

That additional info is helpful. Yeah... the Surface Book itself it definitely contributing to a portion of the woes you are experiencing. It is has some unique tech in it and doesn't have high quality device drivers.

But as you've discovered, a debloating script can make a significant difference. In another thread I had outlined the basic steps that I take with each Win10 device that I get... and debloating is one of the first. And as @c0ppo mentioned, there's some under the covers stuff that can impede performance and stability.

Once those basic preliminary steps are taken, there really isn't much in the way of babysitting that needs to be done with Win10.

 

[xraydoc]

This Microsoft Surface Book is a really nice laptop.. Microsoft just needs to work out a few more annoyances. There are some apps I need to quit in order to detach the tablet from the base: Mail, LockApp, YourPhone, Text Input. These apps run on startup and I never use them.. they aren't in the Startup Apps window either. I tried to uninstall the YourPhone app but there doesn't seem to be a way to do it. Having a laptop that you can detach the screen and have it become a fully working tablet is a nice idea.

View attachment 907066

Make sure that the integrated GPU is selected in the nVidia control panel as the default GPU, not the dGPU, and make sure these specific apps aren't separately set to run off the dGPU. This is a main cause of this happening. Once I made sure of that, I've never had any trouble with this happening.
The issue here as that these apps are running off the dGPU, which obviously will prevent the tablet from being removed from the base (the dGPU is physically in the base).