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ani4ani

Cancelled
May 4, 2012
1,703
1,537
Again, these are not Apple employees. Stop being such a bleeding heart.

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Tad bit sensitive there, huh? Tough day?

Seems like the Apple apologists are no better than Apple. Nothing to do with us....... not our problem....

That is exactly why the BBC made the film to demonstrate for all the Apple propaganda they are no better than the rest; they don't care about anything but extracting as much as they can for as little as possible.

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Your reasoning through profit margins is flawed. I can also argue that those cheap manufacturers sell dirt cheap Android devices. In order to survive they have to suppress wages and require ridiculous hours, etc.

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This is the most stupid thoughts from people that do not understand how US works. Apple profits translate to high stock prices and high market value. These are wealths shared by millions of Americans through stock ownership and mutual funds. If Apple profits are greatly reduced through domestic manufacturing, enormous money will be lost.

Yea, what does it matter that folks die on the way, or live in pitiful conditions, basically working as slaves, we've got the American dream to worry about.
 

Lankyman

macrumors 68020
May 14, 2011
2,083
832
U.K.
I believe that Apple sent a letter round to it's UK workforce yesterday basically attacking the BBC whilst at the same time trotting out the holier than thou Apple mantra.

Most decent thinking people would think a hell of a lot more about Apple if they held up their hands and admitted there were serious issues that required urgent attention.

More often than not doing the right thing is the right thing to do.
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Nov 14, 2011
24,381
31,621
I believe that Apple sent a letter round to it's UK workforce yesterday basically attacking the BBC whilst at the same time trotting out the holier than thou Apple mantra.

Most decent thinking people would think a hell of a lot more about Apple if they held up their hands and admitted there were serious issues that required urgent attention.

More often than not doing the right thing is the right thing to do.

Apple has always admitted there is more work to do. That doesn't mean they don't have the right to call out the BBC for what they feel was inaccurate reporting. Has anybody independent audited the BBC program and confirmed everything in it was the truth, the whole story and not bent/shaped in any way?

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Seems like the Apple apologists are no better than Apple. Nothing to do with us....... not our problem....

That is exactly why the BBC made the film to demonstrate for all the Apple propaganda they are no better than the rest; they don't care about anything but extracting as much as they can for as little as possible.

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Yea, what does it matter that folks die on the way, or live in pitiful conditions, basically working as slaves, we've got the American dream to worry about.
So what have you done lately to help these people?
 

numlock

macrumors 68000
Mar 13, 2006
1,590
88
Apple has always admitted there is more work to do. That doesn't mean they don't have the right to call out the BBC for what they feel was inaccurate reporting. Has anybody independent audited the BBC program and confirmed everything in it was the truth, the whole story and not bent/shaped in any way?

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So what have you done lately to help these people?

what was inaccurate in the report?

based on what is the bbc is not independent enough for you? who is? tim cook playing dressup?

iaBrkX2WoHs4.jpg


how much time does does apple need? what are they waiting for? what is the next step on their plan?

although the report quoted apple saying the dormitory situation was solved. heather white said it could be solved in 6 months if there was genuine interest. now lets assume this dormitory situation is not a problem any more and that heather white is correct in her estimation but ask the question why did that issue ever exist in the first place?
 
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Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Nov 14, 2011
24,381
31,621
what was inaccurate in the report?

based on what is the bbc is not independent enough for you? who is? tim cook playing dressup?

Image

how much time does does apple need? what are they waiting for? what is the next step on their plan?

although the report quoted apple saying the dormitory situation was solved. heather white said it could be solved in 6 months if there was genuine interest. now lets assume this dormitory situation is not a problem any more and that heather white is correct in her estimation but ask the question why did that issue ever exist in the first place?

Why should I assume the BBC is independent and doesn't have an agenda? I suggest you watch this video from Twit: http://twit.tv/show/tech-news-today/1159

Fixing the problems in China will take decades. And why is the onus on American companies to fix China's cultural problems? Why isn't the focus on the Chinese government?
 

ani4ani

Cancelled
May 4, 2012
1,703
1,537
Apple has always admitted there is more work to do. That doesn't mean they don't have the right to call out the BBC for what they feel was inaccurate reporting. Has anybody independent audited the BBC program and confirmed everything in it was the truth, the whole story and not bent/shaped in any way?

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So what have you done lately to help these people?

Probably not much in the whole scheme of things [nevertheless I do work with numerous Chinese manufacturers who would put some UK business to shame], but then I am not spouting pious propaganda every day.

There is this idea that the whole of China manufacturing and industry is somehow like Foxconn and this somehow excuses Apple [or other Western businesses]; this is total fallacy. There are world class manufacturing and welfare provisions there and there is absolutely no reason why it couldn't all be like that. It will not / cannot happen when the going rate is $5 to build your flag-ship phone.

Want I don't get, is how somehow we should be pleased that 93% of Apple's subcontract employees [near 1 Million of them] didn't go beyond 60 hours a week of work, or that 8 [rather than 12?] people living in each room is somehow good? How many work colleagues do you know would be happy if this would the limit of their company's aspirations? Furthermore, to brag about it?
 
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numlock

macrumors 68000
Mar 13, 2006
1,590
88
Why should I assume the BBC is independent and doesn't have an agenda? I suggest you watch this video from Twit: http://twit.tv/show/tech-news-today/1159

Fixing the problems in China will take decades. And why is the onus on American companies to fix China's cultural problems? Why isn't the focus on the Chinese government?

will watch later today and comment.

what reason do you have to to believe the bbc is not independent?

apple believes they have achieved some improvement in a matter of years so what do you base your decades estimation on?

how is apple demanding (if they care) workers to be treated better in the manufacturing process of their process just a chine cultural issue?
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Nov 14, 2011
24,381
31,621
will watch later today and comment.

what reason do you have to to believe the bbc is not independent?

apple believes they have achieved some improvement in a matter of years so what do you base your decades estimation on?

how is apple demanding (if they care) workers to be treated better in the manufacturing process of their process just a chine cultural issue?

Watch the twit video. Anyway my disagreement is solely around the notion that Apple is either not being truthful or just doesn't care (because it's all about profits). I think Apple is sincere in what it's trying to do and is doing more than most of its peers. Does that mean things don't slip through the cracks or there isn't more to do? Of course not. If that makes me a blind Apple apologist, so be it.
 

numlock

macrumors 68000
Mar 13, 2006
1,590
88
Watch the twit video. Anyway my disagreement is solely around the notion that Apple is either not being truthful or just doesn't care (because it's all about profits). I think Apple is sincere in what it's trying to do and is doing more than most of its peers. Does that mean things don't slip through the cracks or there isn't more to do? Of course not. If that makes me a blind Apple apologist, so be it.

just watched it.

first off it says right away "The FBI blames North Korea for the Sony Pictures hack, The BBC blames Apple for labor woes in Asia, Google blames Hollywood for conspiring to bring back SOPA, and more."

which shows extreme bias right of the bat.

the only guest is a forbes writer covering mobile technology. where are you questioning the balance there?

they both argue that apple has genuine interest in improving the standards and talk about years to decade(s) in the time it takes to "fix" things. what exactly of the problems covered takes decades to fix?

seriously considering the rudimentary state of the tin industry in indonesia and some of the factory conditions how much improvement has actually been made?

and mr spence is free to cover the christmas tree decoration industry in china. the idea that either you cover all or none is bizarre.

their opposition to an absolutist viewpoint does that also translate to domestic abuse and more?

its like when the people on fox when they talk about minimum wage and ask questions like "why not go to $100 per hour". its counterproductive, its illogical and its only purpose is to muddy the water

why would an iphone cost 2000 pounds if they didnt have to cheat on overtime, take ids, squeeze 12 in a room or have so many try to kill themselves at foxconn?
 
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Lankyman

macrumors 68020
May 14, 2011
2,083
832
U.K.
Why should I assume the BBC is independent and doesn't have an agenda? I suggest you watch this video from Twit: http://twit.tv/show/tech-news-today/1159

Fixing the problems in China will take decades. And why is the onus on American companies to fix China's cultural problems? Why isn't the focus on the Chinese government?

You do know the BBC is a PSB funded by the UK taxpayer and widely respected the world over I suppose? Have you read it's charter?
 

numlock

macrumors 68000
Mar 13, 2006
1,590
88
+100 Billion times.

so the improvements apple claims to have achieved have been through regulatory changes in china?

we in the western world do our business with apple and not china or some factory. we (who disapprove) voice our displeasure with apple and not china
 

linuxcooldude

macrumors 68020
Mar 1, 2010
2,480
7,232
so the improvements apple claims to have achieved have been through regulatory changes in china?

we in the western world do our business with apple and not china or some factory. we (who disapprove) voice our displeasure with apple and not china

Changes dont happen over night. Its a slow process trying to convince a whole country as big as China to change their ways. But nearly all the raw materials come from the asian countries to make these devices. So while we buy our mobile devices from Apple, we still have to indirectly deal with China and these Asian countries.
 

numlock

macrumors 68000
Mar 13, 2006
1,590
88
Changes dont happen over night. Its a slow process trying to convince a whole country as big as China to change their ways. But nearly all the raw materials come from the asian countries to make these devices. So while we buy our mobile devices from Apple, we still have to indirectly deal with China and these Asian countries.

thats not an answer to my question. apple states they have improved and monitor the conditions and workload of the factory workers. has that improvement come from pressure from apple or through regulatory changes?

who said overnight (apple and co also didnt just setup shop there yesterday) and who said to change all china? this thread you are in is regards to electronics manufacturing.
 
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The-Real-Deal82

macrumors P6
Jan 17, 2013
16,546
24,310
Wales, United Kingdom
Apple has always admitted there is more work to do. That doesn't mean they don't have the right to call out the BBC for what they feel was inaccurate reporting. Has anybody independent audited the BBC program and confirmed everything in it was the truth, the whole story and not bent/shaped in any way?

I very much doubt the BBC would report things that were untrue, especially against a company that sues every competitor in the market. I think Apple have handled the aftermath of this documentary badly indeed. Instead of issuing a public statement and declaring a shake up of their manufacturing policies, they are attempting to dismiss the content of the BBC documentary and to be honest it's not fooling anybody. It's not going to stop me buying and enjoying my apple products, but I would expect one of the wealthiest companies on earth to conduct themselves a little more professionally. Having experience of Chinese manufacturing myself, I didn't see anything in that programme that was exaggerated or fabricated. This is just the way things are out there. Companies maximise profit in any way possible and people do get exploited.
 

kolax

macrumors G3
Mar 20, 2007
9,181
115
Why should I assume the BBC is independent and doesn't have an agenda? I suggest you watch this video from Twit: http://twit.tv/show/tech-news-today/1159

Fixing the problems in China will take decades. And why is the onus on American companies to fix China's cultural problems? Why isn't the focus on the Chinese government?

Because Apple is choosing to do business in a way that exploits human labour horrifically. It's not as if it's a secret. It's the Chinese government's problem to fix, but it's Apple's choice to exploit this for their own wellbeing.

Also, the fact that Apple boasts about how much they try to improve things (as disapproved by the BBC) doesn't help matters either. Maybe things would improve more if Apple admitted there is a serious problem and they need help solving it rather than bulls**ing us all with their usual marketing blabber.
 

Lankyman

macrumors 68020
May 14, 2011
2,083
832
U.K.
What saddens me about so many of the posts on this forum is the attitude - I don't care how many people get exploited or even die making Apple's products just so long as I get my shiny new iPhone/iPad/iMac etc. etc.

How did we become so selfish and self obsessed?

Someone on another forum summed this situation up nicely. They remarked that if this film had been shown as an 'appeal' on national TV without names being added then righteous indignation along with financial aid would be flooding in. Because it happens to be Apple then lots of 'non believers' are demanding that the messenger should be shot instead.
 

8281

macrumors 6502
Dec 15, 2010
498
643
I'm a physician and I routinely work 80+ hour weeks (and 100+ hour weeks during residency). These factory workers have it good! Maybe the BBC should produce a documentary on overworked physicians (something that actually matters).

LOL, what? You also make six figures a year, plus benefits, and have all the prestige that comes with your career. Talk about false equivalency. I've never understood why we have such disdain for laborers in this country, and we love, loooove to play the "who puts in more hours? who has it worse?" game. It's ridiculous.
 

noodlemanc

macrumors regular
Mar 25, 2010
208
18
Australasia
Yea, what does it matter that folks die on the way, or live in pitiful conditions, basically working as slaves, we've got the American dream to worry about.

I don't get why people refer to low-wage workers as slaves -- seems like a shock-tactic. Remember that these workers are in the top 25% income bracket in China. How much do they have to earn to not be "slaves" anymore?
 

michelepri

macrumors 6502a
May 27, 2007
511
61
Rome, Paris, Berlin
Probably not much in the whole scheme of things [nevertheless I do work with numerous Chinese manufacturers who would put some UK business to shame], but then I am not spouting pious propaganda every day.

There is this idea that the whole of China manufacturing and industry is somehow like Foxconn and this somehow excuses Apple [or other Western businesses]; this is total fallacy. There are world class manufacturing and welfare provisions there and there is absolutely no reason why it couldn't all be like that. It will not / cannot happen when the going rate is $5 to build your flag-ship phone.

Want I don't get, is how somehow we should be pleased that 93% of Apple's subcontract employees [near 1 Million of them] didn't go beyond 60 hours a week of work, or that 8 [rather than 12?] people living in each room is somehow good? How many work colleagues do you know would be happy if this would the limit of their company's aspirations? Furthermore, to brag about it?

This is the most accurate and informative comment so far
 

The-Real-Deal82

macrumors P6
Jan 17, 2013
16,546
24,310
Wales, United Kingdom
Hands up who is still going to buy iPads and iPhones regardless of working conditions in their manufacturing plants? My hand is in the air because you'd have to stop buying any electronics if you felt personally guilty about exploitation in the supply chains. Long hours, the use of tin, you name it, we can split all manufacturing down and find a moral reason not to buy something. Are there any big name companies who haven't been had up for exploitation? Weren't Samsung accused of using child labour back in 2011/12?

This might be an ideal opportunity for some to stick the boot in to the BBC and Apple, but the fact is it is a wide spread problem.
 

kettle

macrumors 65816
If you can give us one single example of the BBC selling any media based on a Panorama report, I'd be very interested?

Stuff like Only Fools and Horses, Red Dwarf, Top Gear and the amazing work by the likes of Brian Cox and David Attenborough have their place in the world of sales but I can't for the life of me ever recall seeing a Panorama DVD/Blu-ray Box set pushed out by the BBC.


Panorama is aired worldwide via BBC World News (BBC Worldwide)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_World_News

Panorama is so successful that there are talks about separating it

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/nov/12/panorama-could-split-from-bbc-shakeup

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BBC worldwide sell the productions. Not the BBC. Different companies.

now you're doing it...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Worldwide


for the click shy...

BBC Worldwide Ltd. is the wholly owned commercial subsidiary of the BBC, formed out of a restructuring of its predecessor BBC Enterprises in 1995. The company exploits BBC brands, sells BBC and other British programming for broadcast abroad with the aim of supplementing the income received by the BBC through the licence fee.

In 2013/14, BBC Worldwide generated headline profits of £157.4m and headline sales of £1,042.3m and returned £173.8m to the BBC.

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I think they sell their programmes to other country's? Like Top Gear? But they do get the majority of their income from the British public, and I personally don't agree with that due to recent events. But I doubt anything I say will change it.

I think Panorama in particular could be trying to boost their 'ratings' - I see it like a form of click bait.

this article may help

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/nov/12/panorama-could-split-from-bbc-shakeup
 
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