BBFC ban Manhunt 2 from UK release

[pcypert]

What game isn't kill, kill, kill? GeOW = Killing. God of War = Human Sacrifice. Call of Duty = Killing Nazis. The point of Serious Sam was just kill hundreds and hundreds of people and monsters.

If we didn't do things because someone might get killed over them we'd never do anything. Remember the movie Fisher King? Someone copied that and shot up a Luby's...they found a ticket stub in the psycho's pocket and decided that must have been it. So movies aren't safe. And we all know kids are shooting up schools because of music so no more music. Now video games. Someone will now shoot someone expecting them to come back to life ala Lost and TV will be unsafe. Plus there were tons of murders and sickos before electricity so we need to ban books and candles too...they might push someone over the edge.

I'd say books get way more in folks heads than video games. That level of description and detail. Way more than a game or movie could ever do....yet somehow folks that read are deemed capable of handling their junk...whereas us dumba$$ video gamers seem incapable of seperating reality from fiction.

Paul

 

[jdechko]

Look, I think we're missing the point of why it got an AO rating rather than an M rating in the first place. And I don't think it's the violence...

"The ultra-violent videogame Manhunt 2 allows you to rape a woman shortly after you beheaded her in the brothel level called Honey Pot. Members of the ESRB were shocked when Daniel Lamb used his male reproduction organ and simulated a penetration in the bloody hole. Other gruesome parts include microwaving a living cat to death and being a witness of necrophilia in a cemetery..."

Personally, I wouldn't want to act out the killings on the Wii and stuff (like MRU and others) but I think the violence in the game is tolerable compared to this.

 

[LethalWolfe]

I just don't want to see anyone killed over a video game.

I don't want to see anyone senselessly killed either regardless if it's over a video game, iPod, pair of shoes or lost love. But that doesn't mean we should do away with video games, iPods, shoes, and significant others. The problem doesn't lie w/the video game or the pair of shoes the problem lies w/the individual who perpetrated the act of violence and that's where the focus of our attention should be in efforts to address the problem.


Lethal

 

[wyatt23]

this is an excerpt from Bret Easton Ellis's American Psycho... (made into a movie not so long ago)... if you are easily offended or squeemish, read past the quote.

"I start by skinning Torri a little, making incisions with a steak knife and ripping bits of flesh from her legs and stomach while she screams in vain, begging for mercy in a high thin voice. Finally I pour acid onto her belly and genitals, but none of this comes close to killing her, so I resort to stabbing her in the throat and eventually the blade of the knife breaks off in what's left of her neck, stuck on bone, and I stop. While Tiffany watches, finally I saw the entire head off--torrents of blood splash against the walls, even the ceiling-- and holding the head up, like a prize, I take my c***, purple with stiffness, and lowering Torri's head to my lap I push it into her bloodied mouth and start f***ing it, until I c***, exploding into it." p. 304, from American Psycho

that is a book that can be bought at amazon.com, barnes and noble, borders, etc... you can problably go on/into those places and purchase this without any hesitation. That is also an excerpt that was FAR LESS brutal than most other passages (just to prove my point).

The hypocracy that exists in this world! as long as your READING or WATCHING extreme gratuitous violence, it's ok... but god forbid you play a FICTIONAL video game.

honestly. i'd be more worried about the guys going and reading american psycho and similar books than the people playing manhunt 2.

(that's not to say i don't want to read the book of a movie a really enjoy )

 

[Igantius]

Well, thing is there has been at least 1 murder in the UK related to Manhunt 1 so I can understand the ban....
wasn't Clockwork Orange banned (and a mighty good film, I might add).

With the murder you're referring to, it was widely reported in the media that the killer was obssessed with Manhunt; the victim's parents blamed the game too.

However, although the victim owned a copy and played it a lot, the killer (a friend ironically) didn't have a copy - in fact there is not evidence to suggest that he even played it.

The police team involved in the case issued an official statement that the game had no influence or part in the murder... but did that get widely reported?

A Clockwork Orange wasn't banned in the UK, but it was withdrawn for many years (and so was illegal to screen) at the request of director, Kubrick - but you're right it is a great film!

 

[takao]

agreeing with the previous poster i just wanted to add a few things

knowing that the game mostly consists of sneaking passages with kills in between i think it brings up a few interesting questions:
is it worse to kill a few enemy characters gruesome compared to taking out enemies in the _dozens_ like in other games ? (i'm quite sure you kill a lot more people in call of duty by the 3rd level than in manhunt 2 combined
what is wrong with games letting the player feel somehow uneasy or even offened by his characters actions ?
don't we really need such provoking games if we really want to consider games a form of art ?

 

[2nyRiggz]

I'm not saying games have to have a point to them to be a humanitarian affair, but while Rockstar usually tiptoes the line between acceptable and ridiculous (in relation to game content), both of their Manhunt games (IMO) are just too 'out there' for most people's tastes, including my own. Really...what's the point of the game, other than committing murder repeatedly? Sure, they throw a story in there and probably some objectives, but the underlying idea is "kill, kill, kill" and I don't support or get that.

The game is about survival and I understand where you are coming from but whats the difference between this and any other violent game out there....the point in the majority of games is to "kill, kill, kill" I've played the first one and was rather interested in the story...sorta like the running man.

This is just rockstar topping itself again. I'm not too interested in this one because of the level of violence but really...we've seen things like this before in video games this is nothing new.




Bless

 

[sikkinixx]

this is an excerpt from Bret Easton Ellis's American Psycho... (made into a movie not so long ago)... if you are easily offended or squeemish, read past the quote.

The hypocracy that exists in this world! as long as your READING or WATCHING extreme gratuitous violence, it's ok... but god forbid you play a FICTIONAL video game.

honestly. i'd be more worried about the guys going and reading american psycho and similar books than the people playing manhunt 2.

(that's not to say i don't want to read the book of a movie a really enjoy )

Have you read American Psycho? You do know that the violence in that book is a few chapters out of a few dozen and that the violence is not the main aim of the book. It's not just some slasher book where the whole thing revolves around him killing prostitutes or homeless people. Besides, publishers did decide not to publish American Psycho at first, but it later found someone who was willing to put it out. It's a work of literary art, not just a book about killing people for no apparent reason (although it's debatable that the killing never happened).

I find it hard to compare the two since Manhunt is clearly just made to shock and offend and to push people as far as possible. And im sure the fact that you are actually DOING the actions with the Wiimote and such don't help Manhunt's case much.

 

[takao]

have you played Manhunt 2 ? i guess not ... so don't be so fast with judging either

from wikipedia on plot:

"An experiment at a secret research facility has gone catastrophically wrong. Daniel is sent to the Dixmor Asylum, where six years later a freakish storm of lightning hits the power, leaving it dark and haunting. Daniel Lamb and Leo Kasper are the only surviving subjects. The Pickman Project will stop at nothing to hunt them down and stop the truth from getting out.
Demented screams echo around the dank asylum that has caged you for the last six years. You open your eyes. A white-coated body slumps to the floor through your shaking hands. A bloody syringe slips from your arm. Waves of confusion and paranoia crash over you. You have no idea who you are or how you got here.
The door to your cell is open. One choice. One chance. They took your life. Time to take it back."

they list it as survival horror or psychological horror so i guess it's also debatable if the killings actually occur or not

unless you actually played the game already
(oh and i read american psycho)

 

[sikkinixx]

^ so true. But do you really think they allowed the killing to be even more brutal to make an artistic point? Rockstar is the king of shock publicity Again, I don't think it should be banned or anything but I find a great difference between AP and Manhunt.

 

[takao]

^ so true. But do you really think they allowed the killing to be even more brutal to make an artistic point?

well it depends: just look at newer modern antiwar/war movies where many soldiers die a brutal death opposed to the old movies of the 50ties/60ties
which are worse ? personally i would say the old ones which often end up as a glorification of war

i think part of the game was from the starting point to make the player confused or questioning his own characters actions which actually are his own and even his ideals or goals which should make a player think about it quite interesting

Rockstar is the king of shock publicity Again, I don't think it should be banned or anything but I find a great difference between AP and Manhunt.

that's why i guess that they will magically turn around by deleting like 2-3 scenes (which very likely were put in there just to get this rating and thus publicity and will be easy removable) and release it anyway

 

[pcypert]

That's what I'm thinking. They had these scenes in there for it to go to ratings....big media circus around it gets them a lot more buzz (because people are stupid and don't realize they could let stuff go and have non of the press for something...please take note next time there's a major shooting folks) and then poof, here's a copy without the scenes and they sell a few thousand extra copies...all courtesy of stupid, lazy parents and Senators trying to divert attention away from money they're making their friends....

They had to know the rape scene would push them over the edge....but then again just because a character in the game CAN do something doesn't mean that the player has to do that. In the Wii stuff I've read there are brutal executions, but you don't have to do them. The player can choose a really simple death for the killers or do the brutal, showy, sneak one...raises some interesting points about players and what they'd rather do which actually raises the concept of the game up a notch for me...

Paul

 

[zap2]

Feel free to make sweeping, general statements about all the consoles now because Sony, MS, and Nintendo have said they will not have AO games for their consoles.
l

Thats not what I was doing.....MS and Sony don't have the problem. They have GTA 4, RE5, God of War, Gears of War, Halo 3...all are the AAA titles of the systems. Nintendo has Metriod, Mario, Link...they all rock! But they also have problem with being a child brand of gaming. And trouble getting 3rd party games...RE4 was a huge step in the right direction, Manhunt was going their too. The last thing Nintendo needs is dev feeling unwanted on Nintendo systems.


Also Nintendo has a history of censorship....Mortal Kombat on the SNES? This is different, but Nintendo could come out, looking like a king if they let Manhunt 2 ship with AO rating, and Sony didn't. Also what is the point of AO, if console makers in general won't use the AO rating? Other then PC games of course.


Nintendo has a lot to gain here, by letting the game ship as is on the Wii, and a lot to lose by not letting it ship. So does Sony, but not as much. Heck PS2 isn't even the main Sony system anymore, Wii is.

 

[takao]

Also Nintendo has a history of censorship....Mortal Kombat on the SNES? This is different, but Nintendo could come out, looking like a king if they let Manhunt 2 ship with AO rating, and Sony didn't. Also what is the point of AO, if console makers in general won't use the AO rating? Other then PC games of course.

best irony of last generation which went under the radar:
mortal kombat: deception got released on gamecube and ps2.. now guess on which console they had to obfuscate backgrounds which including naked greek statues showing bare breasts with nipples
believe it or not it wasn't the Gamecube, it was indeed only censored on the PS2

 

[zero2dash]

update

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6172931.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=newstop&tag=newstop;title;1

Take-Two shelves Manhunt 2
Plans to release game "temporarily suspended" while publisher continues exploring options.
By Brendan Sinclair, GameSpot
Posted Jun 21, 2007 3:16 pm PT

In the wake of international bans and an Adults Only rating in the US, Manhunt 2 won't make its July 10 release date, Take-Two Interactive has confirmed. The game had been expected to ship that day for the PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, and Nintendo Wii.

"Take-Two Interactive Software has temporarily suspended plans to distribute Manhunt 2 for the Wii or PlayStation platforms while it reviews its options with regard to the recent decisions made by the British Board of Film Classification and Entertainment Software Rating Board," a representative told GameSpot. "We continue to stand behind this extraordinary game. We believe in freedom of creative expression, as well as responsible marketing, both of which are essential to our business of making great entertainment."

While the ESRB's initial rating of an AO for Adults Only doesn't explicitly prohibit the game from being sold, most major US retailers refuse to carry AO games, and console manufacturers prohibit their third-party publishers from releasing AO titles on their systems.

 

[MRU]

I'm also a 28-year-old libertarian, and even I have a huge problem with what I know of this game (having read IGN's preview). Seems like a completely unnecessary product.

Quite. That's EXACTLY as I see it too. Maybe its a 28 thing

How can you agree with the banning of a game?

simple. A movie does not involve a persons interaction. Watching an actor kill someone whilst horrible if there is no context other than to disturb (hostel), there is a line between that and asking the audience to PHYSICALLY carry out the actions on screen.

What the hell is in your mind-set that the thought of using your wiimote to stab, strangle and torture someone - seems as actual fun for you or a good idea. It's sick for the sake of being sick.

 

[takao]

What the hell is in your mind-set that the thought of using your wiimote to stab, strangle and torture someone - seems as actual fun for you or a good idea. It's sick for the sake of being sick.

"What the hell is in your mind-set that the thought of pressing a button at will which results in people getting shot and being blown to bits or loosing limbs - seem as actual fun for you or a good idea. It's sick for the sake of being sick."

why is pressing a button more acceptable ? when was the last time while playing a shooter with a normal gamepad or mouse when you thought "it is so sick killing people just by pressing a button"
please think about it .. shouldn't it be more sickening that people get killed by pressing buttons completely emotionless and without remorse ?

 

[LethalWolfe]

Nintendo has a lot to gain here, by letting the game ship as is on the Wii, and a lot to lose by not letting it ship. So does Sony, but not as much. Heck PS2 isn't even the main Sony system anymore, Wii is.

A lot to gain? By pissing off the same "some one think of the children" faction that Rock Star pissed off w/"hot coffee"? Nintendo has been very successful so far selling a truly all ages system, and they aren't about to watch that crumble by getting painted by the mass media as the only console that doesn't care about "protecting" children.

simple. A movie does not involve a persons interaction. Watching an actor kill someone whilst horrible if there is no context other than to disturb (hostel), there is a line between that and asking the audience to PHYSICALLY carry out the actions on screen.

So, again, I guess PnP role playing games, kids playing "army", and/or an actor in a violent film/play are the most harmful things ever because it's people pretending in real life to do these things. Gary Oldman has played a lot of villains in his day. I hope someone stops him from acting soon before he goes out and kills someone for real...


Lethal

 

[jdechko]

"What the hell is in your mind-set that the thought of pressing a button at will which results in people getting shot and being blown to bits or loosing limbs - seem as actual fun for you or a good idea. It's sick for the sake of being sick."

why is pressing a button more acceptable ? when was the last time while playing a shooter with a normal gamepad or mouse when you thought "it is so sick killing people just by pressing a button"
please think about it .. shouldn't it be more sickening that people get killed by pressing buttons completely emotionless and without remorse ?

I think that there's a bit of a difference between just pressing a button and physically performing the action at least in a psychological sense. Normally, there used to be a lack of immersion in games (think Wolfenstein3D). It was easier not to get drawn in to feeling like you're there. With HD graphics and 5.1, the games drew us in and immersed our sight and hearing. These same advances draw us into movies as well. Of course, the more senses you excite, the more immersed you become (imagine if they added the stench of a rotting corpse to the game). Adding touch/feel deepens this interaction; however, button pressing isn't all that immersive compared to actually making the motions. So psycholgically, I think there is a difference between the two, with motions being more disturbing, while button presses feel more disconnected.

 

[zap2]

simple. A movie does not involve a persons interaction. Watching an actor kill someone whilst horrible if there is no context other than to disturb (hostel), there is a line between that and asking the audience to PHYSICALLY carry out the actions on screen.[/SIZE]

However, the move looks real..no one playing a game for PS2/Wii/PSP will think its real.


I understand you not wanting to play it...but why do care what other people do? Why should a game be banned, when it warms no one. No one is forcing anyone to play it, and keeping it away from minors is important.

I'm playing the game for the survive effect...the horror of it. Same reason why I watch horror movies, or play RE4.

 

[applekid]

I'll say it again, you've got to be pretty unstable to actually find it in you to kill a person. A video game is not going to suddenly churn out murderers.

In other news, Microsoft apparently has a no AO game policy, too (thank you, zero2dash). No Manhunt for you!

But, I will say, Rockstar probably screwed up by putting in enough violence in Manhunt 2 to get the AO rating and hence this battle to release the game. Considering no store will sell AO games and none of the three console makers license AO games, Rockstar probably should've tried a little harder to go for the M rating...

I don't care if this game gets released or not. I just find the whole "violent video games make violent people" argument irrational.

 

[Coded-Dude]

I blame Nintendo........

On a serious note, anything violent is going to have an impression on a child.
(children are impressionable)
Thats why they are not allowed to watch/partake in such things.

Again, It is not the fault of the game-maker but the lack of competence on the parents side and/or the carelessness of videogame retailers.
Hold them accountable, not Rockstar or others

 

[0098386]

From me ol' archive.

 

[Stella]

The UK starts illegal wars and become terrorists themselves... ...and they still have the nerve to try and censor games from the public.

If you don't like the game, don't buy it. Simple.

Don't censor.

Parents don't like the game - make sure the kids don't play the game - the Wii has parental option. Use it.

I'm older than 18, if I want to play Man Hunt 2, then its my right. It won't start me on a murdering spree. It may a minority: But if you start this route, ban gambling, ban alcohol, ban food ; they may make a minority of people: gamblers, alcoholics, fat. In every product, there will be people who will abuse it.

 

[Stella]

I just don't want to see anyone killed over a video game.

So you don't like anything, because any product can be abused and lead to death?

Wrap yourself up in a padded hospital cell and remain there for the rest of your life and reality.

Too much exercise, food, water, oxygen can kill! Lets ban oxygen because too much of it is poisonous to humans!!