Bizarre Creations: PGR4

[Coded-Dude]

further "clarification" as per the thread(from Bizarre Creations) I linked above:

Wow, some kind of reaction to this one folks. Yes, it's really worth just reiterating what The Boy has said above me. We've got double the number of locations this time around, and lots of new features and graphics which all take up valuable disc real-estate. We could have just shipped with the 5 new cities in PGR4, but we chose to put all of them in there because of the new motorcycles and weather conditions which really bring the old cities into a new light.

I think everybody will agree that having twice the number of locations is better than having day & night textures for each.

Multiple disc or DLC options are not really viable for all of the reasons already outlined in this thread. No matter what the size of your optical media is, there will ALWAYS be limitations. It's the job of Bizarre to work inside those limitations and make the game the best it can be within them. Which is what we're doing right now

This one is fro you jimmi.

As for Crysis - there are meny techniques which could be used in this kind of game, i.e.: lots of prefabs. You build 20 trees, place them randomly, scale their leaves and trunks, light the bark differently and voila - you have a forest full of trees which all look different, yet only using 20 models.

Try building a prefab london

They still say they are gonna "Blow your socks off" with this game, but this is a blow to MS as far as the general consumer is concerned.
(having devs admit sacrifices, that were dismissed as non-issues previously, have to be made)

 

[0098386]

That seems dumb, if they used good dynamic lighting they dont need new textures, maybe new shaders...

What is BC in, the stone age?

Haha. Good point. Try games like Zelda, Oblivion or any other night/day cycle game... they don't load up new textures when it gets dark.

As for prefabs, that would explain the trees yes. But the amount of HD textures and maps for a whole island? (edit: and space ship, and frozen island...)
and BTW, if they're sharing textures, then it's just a polygon model that differenciates buildings and the positioning of the textures and other bits (windows etc).

 

[sikkinixx]

They still say they are gonna "Blow your socks off" with this game, but this is a blow to MS as far as the general consumer is concerned.
(having devs admit sacrifices, that were dismissed as non-issues previously, have to be made)

hardly a blow to the general consumer since the general consumer won't expect as much as the informed consumer and probably won't even know about 'maxing out' the DVD.

I assumed this would happen at some point but didn't really expect it until the tail end of the generation. What picks me is how MS did this to themselves and in turn to me, the consumer. They could have avoided any problems by simply including a hard drive with every unit, then they could have used it for some extra space or faster load times or whatever and let me have the content.

Then again, people who bought the Core should be punished for being igorant consumers and buying a SKU which is clearly far below that of the "Premium" bundle.

In short:

everyone is to blame but me.

 

[Sdashiki]

Not that I like Bill, but what I believe he meant when he said:

640k is enough

he could have easily meant CPU cache, which if you look today, isnt that far from 640k.

 

[zero2dash]

How is it that other racing games on the 360 can have lots of places to race/tracks, and different lighting/weather conditions, yet they don't have space issues? DiRT, Forza 2, MotoGP '07 etc.

I think they're being sloppy with texture work, and on top of that I'm sure the gpu supports texture compression (I remember a time when none did but that was years ago; I assume they all do now).

 

[gloss]

How is it that other racing games on the 360 can have lots of places to race/tracks, and different lighting/weather conditions, yet they don't have space issues? DiRT, Forza 2, MotoGP '07 etc.

I think they're being sloppy with texture work, and on top of that I'm sure the gpu supports texture compression (I remember a time when none did but that was years ago; I assume they all do now).

Have you seen how ridiculous the texturing is in PGR4? It's a really fantastic-looking game. I can believe that they're reaching the limits of the format.

 

[MRU]

Have you seen how ridiculous the texturing is in PGR4? It's a really fantastic-looking game. I can believe that they're reaching the limits of the format.

But all that texturing has to fit into gpu memory for the course surely ?

Hence I still don't see the size problem. Yes they may have 20 courses in said city, but it's the same buildings and city albeit slightly different route, so therefore the textures are still the same ones being reused.

 

[gloss]

But all that texturing has to fit into gpu memory for the course surely ?

Hence I still don't see the size problem. Yes they may have 20 courses in said city, but it's the same buildings and city albeit slightly different route, so therefore the textures are still the same ones being reused.

Well, I'm just pointing out that from what I've seen of the game, I can believe it. Every building appears uniquely textured, so many different routes through the city could result in a huge variety of textures to load.

I am, of course, pulling all this from my arse. I've got no science behind me. =)

 

[Coded-Dude]

 

[steamboat26]

PGR4 definitely looks better than Forza 2. And forza 2 really only had one weather condition, and it didn't feel like there are very many tracks (hopefully there will be a download pack soon.)

 

[zero2dash]

Gears probably had a ton of texture work and they fit all that in.

That's my point...games that look equally impressive ended up ok. What's the trouble with a (great looking) racing game that undoubtedly doesn't need to be crystal clear most of the time on textures since you're racing by at 200+ mph? /shrug

 

[zero2dash]

"DVD size is absolutely not a factor that we consider when designing our games..."

Debunked!

http://www.bizarrecreations.com/article.php?article_id=5257

Disc-oh?
Wrong end of stick been grasped?
Wednesday, August 01 2007

As I'm sure you've seen, some of the comments made on our forum have been blown out of all proportion. This has been reported on certain web sites. It seems that a number of fanboys have jumped on the topic... sigh. So it's time we cleared this one up...

When we started designing PGR4 our primary goals were to create a great and unique experience over and above PGR3, to push the hardware as far as we could, and obviously to ensure that we give great value for money. DVD size is absolutely not a factor that we consider when designing our games... and PGR4 is no exception. DVD9 gives us more than we need to create a fabulous experience for you guys.

The previous game, PGR3, had five environments. That's how much we could create given our time and resources for that game. With the longer development cycle we've had for PGR4, as well as the advantage of having final hardware, we wanted to create a far bigger and better game by this time including 10 environments, as well as a whole bunch of new gameplay features.

Rather than having two "fixed" times of day, this time around we decided to use our time to create a dynamic weather system, which effectively creates a much more dramatic palette from which to work with. To show you where we're coming from, have a look at this screenshot crop sheet. This is something we use internally to compare our environments, lighting, and weather effects... but it's certainly useful for demonstrating the breadth of the game here!

Environments Crop Sheet
Click for larger size... (aprx. 5MB)

We've never had to cut content to fit on the disc, and we probably never will.

Each next-gen format has its own merits. We should know, as we're currently developing games for all of them in one form or another. It's not a case of one system having less of this, and the other having more of that. As developers we are given a fixed platform, and that's what we work with. At the end of the day we're games developers, and we try to create the best we can irrespective of platform. We hope you end up agreeing with our design decisions when you see the game for yourself.

 

[gloss]

I have to admit, the weather really does look stunning. I'd love to see more games with realtime evolving weather.

 

[zero2dash]

Yeah, I still can't believe how realistic the rain looks, not only falling, but on the ground, beads on the cars, etc. Phenominal work.

 

[Coded-Dude]

Debunked!

http://www.bizarrecreations.com/article.php?article_id=5257

rofl......how do you debunk statements that you made?

 

[e²Studios]

Yeah, I still can't believe how realistic the rain looks, not only falling, but on the ground, beads on the cars, etc. Phenominal work.

Have you seen F1 CE in action? There is not a single game that even comes close to producing realistic rain than that game. IIRC they are using a SPE to manage the physics for just the rain.

Ed

 

[gloss]

Have you seen F1 CE in action? There is not a single game that even comes close to producing realistic rain than that game. IIRC they are using a SPE to manage the physics for just the rain.

Ed

F1 CE

PGR4

I kind of wish they'd shown the rain in F1 from outside the player view. It's hard to level a direct comparison otherwise.

 

[steamboat26]

I'd say it's fairly close, F1 CE never shows you the rain falling on the cars. All it has is the trail of vapor from the cars running over the rain, and the water "falling" on your screen.
For PGR4 the rain looks good dropping on the environment and cars, but the rain itself doesn't look amazing. Don't ask me how rain is supposed to look...

 

[e²Studios]

I'd say it's fairly close, F1 CE never shows you the rain falling on the cars. All it has is the trail of vapor from the cars running over the rain, and the water "falling" on your screen.
For PGR4 the rain looks good dropping on the environment and cars, but the rain itself doesn't look amazing. Don't ask me how rain is supposed to look...

F1 CE shows rain falling, it also shows it flying at you at high speeds. I own the game and have played through 1 full season and many races

There isn't a game that beats the rain/water physics that are in F1 CE, this game might come close (albeit I think its nothing like it) but it still falls short.

The weather and physics in F1 are amazing to say the least.

Ed

 

[bobber205]

I dont' care about all this stuff. I just had to comment and say. Whoa. Those are some nice graphics.

 

[sikkinixx]

Vodafone in Quebec huh? Judging from the F1 GP I went to I would say more like Bud and Bell And those flags look like ass... But I nit-pick too much, the cars look crazy good and PGR is a lot more fun than Forza so I'm a happy camper.