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Spaceboi Scaphandre

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My boy. Look how they massacred my boy.

In the era of the boomer shooter revivals thanks to Doom 2016 and Eternal as well as New Blood's Dusk, Bungie decides to turn their Boomer Shooter series into yet another extraction shooter, a market Call of Duty Warzone 2 and Tarkov have cornered.

Well hey that's Post-Destiny Bungie for you. Say what you will about 343 Industries, because hooo boy there's a lot to say, but at least they didn't turn Halo into a trend following battle royale or extraction shooter.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
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May 3, 2009
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least they didn't turn Halo into a trend following battle royale or extraction shooter.
Yep, they definitely won't follow the trends like Sony/Bungie, LOL

'Halo Infinite' Battle Royale Mode Seemingly Leaks Ahead of Xbox Showcase
1685019309661.png
 

Spaceboi Scaphandre

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Shhhhhh not listening! 🤫

Though I have to ask why Marathon is being turned into an extraction shooter when Sony has ZERO single player FPS games. The Killzone series has been dead since Shadow Fall and Guerrilla has made it clear they're done with Killzone since Horizon is making them a lot more money than Killzone did, and Insomniac was finished with Resistance and are making a killing with Marvel games instead, so a Marathon revival would've been perfect for Sony, reinventing the series similarly to how Doom 2016 did with Doom. Instead they turned it into yet another full priced god damn multiplayer game that will die within a year or two.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
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May 3, 2009
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Though I have to ask why Marathon is being turned into an extraction shooter
I have no idea, though the trend has been for a while for multiplayer type games. I thought though rebooting the game as a true reboot would have been better - more so to include the core audience that loved this game, i.e., Mac owners.
 

Spaceboi Scaphandre

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I have no idea, though the trend has been for a while for multiplayer type games. I thought though rebooting the game as a true reboot would have been better - more so to include the core audience that loved this game, i.e., Mac owners.

This is the core problem from yesterday's Showcase. There were waaaaaaay too many multiplayer live services, and hardly any new single player games. Sony's audience primarily cares about single player, so seeing Marathon as...this...it stings, it really does.
 
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maflynn

macrumors Haswell
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There were waaaaaaay too many multiplayer live services
I agree, my play style is more solo (fallout 76 is the exception for me). The live service games don't generally appeal to me, and so far more live service games have failed then succeeded. As a side note, fallout 76 found a niche and has been active since 2018 - even though the rollout was horrible
 

Spaceboi Scaphandre

macrumors 68040
Jun 8, 2022
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I agree, my play style is more solo (fallout 76 is the exception for me). The live service games don't generally appeal to me, and so far more live service games have failed then succeeded. As a side note, fallout 76 found a niche and has been active since 2018 - even though the rollout was horrible

Nice try buddy I still ain't playing 76. 🥴
 

rampancy

macrumors 6502a
Jul 22, 2002
663
896
Wow. This looks bad. I mean, I dig the whole robotic/cyborg caterpillars laying down the substrate for the skin of this...er, Battleroid Simulated Life Doll Mjolnir Mark IV android, and it reminds me somewhat of the intro sequence for Ghost In The Shell, but the white, minimalist design aesthetic shown here somewhat reminds me of other games like Brink and Mirror's Edge.

And then I remember that this is just an animated cutscene with no gameplay footage. The game could look and feel drastically different compared to this.

What I do find offensive is how Bungie just shoved in a whole bunch of references into a game that has nothing at all to do with the Marathon Trilogy except it being a multiplayer FPS. Look! They mentioned Traxus! The guy who gets shot has "UESC" on their chest! There's something that looks like a Sph't Compiler! The game's logo is a modified version of the original logo that we've seen in the Marathon modding community for years!

And it's a multiplayer-only FPS, because of course.

I'll wager 10 F'lickta sludge projectiles that it's going to be a hero-based lootbox-heavy free-to-play shooter that will launched in "Early Access" but with microtransactions fully implemented and ready to go, and it'll make just as much of a splash as all of the other online multiplayer shooters that have come and gone, like Battleborn, LawBreakers, or Crucible.

Sigh.
 

rampancy

macrumors 6502a
Jul 22, 2002
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I have no idea, though the trend has been for a while for multiplayer type games. I thought though rebooting the game as a true reboot would have been better - more so to include the core audience that loved this game, i.e., Mac owners.

You'd need to have (a) the corporate will and (b) a studio with the experience and chops to pull it off. Does Sony/Bungie have either of those?

The real dream situation would have been for Marathon to be brought back like Doom, with both Doom (2016) and Doom Eternal. As it happens, we're getting another trend-chasing, cookie-cutter live service FPS that will face an uphill battle trying to justify itself in a hugely crowded market.

What, do they think people are all of a sudden going to drop playing Overwatch 2, Destiny 2, APEX Legends, or The Division for this?
 
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Huntn

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Marathon, it kicked (the original) Doom’s buttocks all over the place, it was just on the more expensive, less popular platform.

I have no idea, though the trend has been for a while for multiplayer type games. I thought though rebooting the game as a true reboot would have been better - more so to include the core audience that loved this game, i.e., Mac owners.

How about if they revived the original story, and kept it solo or coop? Then the question is will it be unique or just another space shooter? Think Doom 3 or Dead Space.

When I was doing reviews for a MacGaming site I wrote this about 2005ish:

Ode to Marathon
The world is normal, life is good, until reality comes to a screeching halt. Feebly, I raise my arm and point. Gibberish drools from my mouth as I see a vision. The music vibrates my soul and the army choir sings- “da...da da-da-da......MARATHON”! A fleeting alien figure comes hurtling up the long corridor zapping me with electric shocks. And with just a pistol, I rise to the occasion- blam! blam! to take care of this menace. Despite my wife rolling her eyes, life just got better.

Where am I? The Year: 1994. My Mac Performa (68030 processor) is in the shop to be upgraded to a brand new PowerMac 7100. The dark corridores of the Starship Marathon reveal themselves on the Marathon demo. Besieged with Pfhor, S’pht (no, I don’t have a speech impediment), a rogue-personality-construct named Durandal, and assorted alien critters, it could be argued that Marathon is the single most influential game series ever to grace the Mac’s desktop. With an ancestry dating back to Castle Wolfenstein, Doom, and Pathways Into Darkness, Marathon was the first good looking First Person Shooter (FPS). It had textures, atmosphere, a story, maximum action, lots of alien scum to shoot, it ran without any special graphics hardware, and Mac users had it! Although it did require a PowerPC processor. While the PC minions were drooling over Doom (the poor deluded fools), Mac users were truely blessed with a superior gaming experience.

The first series started with little fanfare, as you arrive on the Starship Marathon. Something is terribly wrong here. And immediately you are assulted. The series is a story of heroism (yours), manipulation (Durandal’s), and target practise, lots of it as you search and explore exotic environments, search and destroy hostile aliens. The series wisked you from the vacuum of space, to planetside vistas, cool blue waters and sometimes, the bubbly green slime of the sewers. Marathon never dissapointed.

And greater than the solo story was the J-O-Y, yes the joy of multiplayer gaming. It’s multiplayer capabilities brought gamers together for countless LAN parties. I have probably forgotten more memorable moments than I can remember, there are so many of them. I remember my amazement that 4-8 players and their computers could be syncronized in a common arena for such good-willed carnage. Grenade hopping. The Bobs running around getting in your way, while shouting “they’re everywhere!”. The pesky floating bots that collapsed in a plume of smoke. The over grown, sludge-throwing sewer rats. The easy long shots when we were all new to this game. The splat of guts on the wall after a dead-on rocket impact. The juggernauts. The insane adreniline rush of double sawed-off shotguns in a small arena.

My list of favorite arenas is a huge one, but here are a few - Circular Death, Mutiny is Good, For a Few Shotguns More, Hata, Egan-rac, Mars Needs Women, B’rak Station, and most of the Randall Shaw (FrigidMan) maps (not already mentioned).

This outstanding game fulfilled my gaming needs for a good 7 years. Quite a run! At the last LAN party I attended (July 2002), we broke out Marathon and gave it one last shot. And sadly, the MacOS (classic v9.2) has seemed to have left Marathon behind. No one could get decent mouse performance from it. Although the Sun is setting is Marathon, its influence and spirit lives on in games such as Unreal Tournament (with it’s Marathon Mods), Quake 3 Arena, and most significantly in the Microsoft/Bungie X-Box consol game, “Halo”, where you can still play “skull” games. I think I’m getting teary. So I’ll wrap this up by saying, “Marathon- thanks for the memories! You got me addicted to computer gaming and my wife (whom I’m still happily married to) will never forgive you.”
 

rampancy

macrumors 6502a
Jul 22, 2002
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People are pissed regarding overwatch 2, so that could happen.
That's fair, but most times, when I see fellow gamers getting angry at a big-budget AAA game – especially one with an established brand – it rarely translates into losses significant enough to impact its bottom line and long term viability. The only cases coming to my mind where it actually has done that, came out of severely botched and mismanaged releases (Evolve and Anthem come to mind here).

But back to my original point, I don't see annoyed OW2 players suddenly moving en masse to "NuMarathon", unless it has a flawless, relatively bug-free launch, high amounts of polish and excellent game play, and a player-friendly monetization scheme.
 
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dmccloud

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Sep 7, 2009
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Anchorage, AK
Their recent road map showed that there will not be any PvE where that was heavily promoted and now people are losing their collective minds over that.

I think that was less of a Blizzard call and more of an Activision/Bobby Kotick call. ABK higher-ups have been kneecapping Blizzard at seemingly every opportunity, and even more so in preparation for a possible Microsoft acquisition. I do know several Blizzard employees, and most of them are not happy with how ABK execs have handled the company since the acquisition.
 
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rampancy

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Jul 22, 2002
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Marathon, it kicked (the original) Doom’s buttocks all over the place, it was just on the more expensive, less popular platform.

I honestly feel like Doom and Marathon were very different games; they just happened to be the marquee titles for their respective platforms. I still the comparison is somewhat unfair. IMHO in its moment-to-moment gameplay Marathon 1 resembled System Shock (or even Doom 3!) more than say, Doom or DN3D. When Marathon 2 came out, people actually complained that Marathon had been turned into an violent shooter, vs. a more atmospheric game.

Apart from the collective bane of our existence that is A Converted Church in Venice, Italy, Marathon Infinity arguably was a much stronger game as it returned to the same type of gameplay as Marathon 1.

How about if they revived the original story, and kept it solo or coop? Then the question is will it be unique or just another space shooter? Think Doom 3 or Dead Space.

I think it definitely would be more unique. The popularity of the newer Doom franchise and, to a lesser extent, the re-revived Wolfenstein franchise proves that you can revive the story of an older FPS and keep it fresh or interesting.

Marathon Infinity would be an especially interesting game to see revived. Could you imagine if the branching timelines and divergent universes of the game were really brought to the fore in a modern engine? You could really mess around with the player's understanding of what's going on, like in the game Control.
 

rampancy

macrumors 6502a
Jul 22, 2002
663
896
This outstanding game fulfilled my gaming needs for a good 7 years. Quite a run! At the last LAN party I attended (July 2002), we broke out Marathon and gave it one last shot. And sadly, the MacOS (classic v9.2) has seemed to have left Marathon behind. No one could get decent mouse performance from it. Although the Sun is setting is Marathon, its influence and spirit lives on in games such as Unreal Tournament (with it’s Marathon Mods), Quake 3 Arena, and most significantly in the Microsoft/Bungie X-Box consol game, “Halo”, where you can still play “skull” games. I think I’m getting teary. So I’ll wrap this up by saying, “Marathon- thanks for the memories! You got me addicted to computer gaming and my wife (whom I’m still happily married to) will never forgive you.”

While the scene isn't nearly as active as it once was, the Marathon modding community is still putting out work of phenomenal quality. Marathon Rubicon was a marvel almost on par with the Marathon Trilogy itself, the relatively new re-imagined Apotheosis X is simply amazing, and Forrest Cameranesi and the Eternal team continue to soldier on with Marathon Eternal. By the end of the year, we're also hoping to see the alpha release of the long-awaited scenario Where Monsters Are In Dreams, as well as Tempus Irae Redux.
 
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Huntn

macrumors Core
May 5, 2008
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The Misty Mountains
While the scene isn't nearly as active as it once was, the Marathon modding community is still putting out work of phenomenal quality. Marathon Rubicon was a marvel almost on par with the Marathon Trilogy itself, the relatively new re-imagined Apotheosis X is simply amazing, and Forrest Cameranesi and the Eternal team continue to soldier on with Marathon Eternal. By the end of the year, we're also hoping to see the alpha release of the long-awaited scenario Where Monsters Are In Dreams, as well as Tempus Irae Redux.
I remember Rubicon, but don't think I played it? 🤫 You've kind of got me interested. How would you say these hold up to competition like Dead Space?
I honestly feel like Doom and Marathon were very different games; they just happened to be the marquee titles for their respective platforms. I still the comparison is somewhat unfair. IMHO in its moment-to-moment gameplay Marathon 1 resembled System Shock (or even Doom 3!) more than say, Doom or DN3D. When Marathon 2 came out, people actually complained that Marathon had been turned into an violent shooter, vs. a more atmospheric game.

Apart from the collective bane of our existence that is A Converted Church in Venice, Italy, Marathon Infinity arguably was a much stronger game as it returned to the same type of gameplay as Marathon 1.



I think it definitely would be more unique. The popularity of the newer Doom franchise and, to a lesser extent, the re-revived Wolfenstein franchise proves that you can revive the story of an older FPS and keep it fresh or interesting.

Marathon Infinity would be an especially interesting game to see revived. Could you imagine if the branching timelines and divergent universes of the game were really brought to the fore in a modern engine? You could really mess around with the player's understanding of what's going on, like in the game Control.
I'd love to see something like this. Both Doom 3 and Dead Space have outstanding spooky atmospheres, which I feel came straight from Marathon. :D However, the Doom 3 end game boss fight was a bust...

BTW, you can buy Dead Space (2008), Dead Space 2 (20011?), and Dead Space 3 (2020) on sale at Steam for $10. None of these are the 2023 release. Look at the bundles on this link:
 
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Spaceboi Scaphandre

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I'd love to see something like this. Both Doom 3 and Dead Space have outstanding spooky atmospheres, which I feel came straight from Marathon. :D However, the Doom 3 end game boss fight was a bust...

Okay gotta be honest: Doom 3 isn't scary. Aside from some predictable jumpscares the game is more tedious than scary, like the fact you couldn't hold the flashlight while using a gun, a problem so bad that in BFG Edition they had to rework the flashlight mechanic, but more egregious is the fact it's shotgun just suuuuuuuuuucks, and they intentionally made it suck to "increase tension."

 

rampancy

macrumors 6502a
Jul 22, 2002
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Okay gotta be honest: Doom 3 isn't scary. Aside from some predictable jumpscares the game is more tedious than scary...

Doom 3.

Sigh.

I think probably LGR and GManLives' YouTube videos on Doom 3 capture my feelings about this game the best. I like it. I like it a lot actually. It knows exactly what it is, exactly what it's trying to do, and it executes on it almost flawlessly. In much the same way as you could argue that Paul Verhoeven's original 1987 RoboCop was a perfect movie, you could argue that Doom 3 is a perfect game.

Almost.

The problem is that the game ruins its fright factor by being excessively tedious, predictable, and downright annoying. I got to the point where I could predict monster ambushes just by seeing a Security Armour lying there right in the open. Oh, I have to backtrack now? Of course they'll spawn in some Imps...

The worst of it though are the cheap enemies and even cheaper enemy placement. I've lost track of how many times the game's thrown a rear admiral (e.g. spawning enemies right behind you) at me. I feel the shotgun is the best weapon to use against Imps and Maggots since I want to conserve assault rifle/chain gun ammo and plasma rounds, but since the RNG on its spread is so wild I have no idea if it's actually going to hit anything, much less kill it. Plus the whole lights-going-out-before-introducing-a-scary-enemy thing feels so overused. Even Unreal in 1999 learned not to overuse that effect. And while I love the design of the new Lost Souls, they're among the most annoying enemies I've ever fought in an FPS.

And when enemies do hit me, the screen shake effect and my loss of aim is so severe that it makes what should be a tense enemy encounter just irritating.

And yet, I can't stop playing it. I've had a lot of fun with Doom 3, much more than another big budget AAA FPS in recent memory. I just love this game.

I remember Rubicon, but don't think I played it? 🤫 You've kind of got me interested. How would you say these hold up to competition like Dead Space?

So here's my quick and dirty guide to the world of Marathon Total Conversion scenarios - these aren't just mods, they're essentially standalone games that hold up on their own, some almost to the point of being commercial-quality...

Marathon EVIL - A quasi-horror-ish game that was one of the first TCs for Marathon Infinity. The Devlins are a legendary enemy that lead to some tense moments and Doom 3-esque jump scares. Most notable for a plot involving the Pfhor Mystics, which I think had some Lovecraftian elements to it.

Marathon: Tempus Irae - A game more in the tone of Marathon Infinity with lots of exploration of architectually dense spaces. Its plot also has some Lovecraftian elements to it, with the terminal texts chronicling a certain historical figure's brush with madness.

Marathon RED - A game that goes balls-to-the-wall with its Lovecraftian action horror, with two all-new distinct enemy factions, and chief antagonists that extend the Marathon lore in very unexpected ways. This game goes hard. It's so hard in fact that famed Marathon player Dr. John Sumner found it impossible to vid. (i.e. complete under the rules of the Vidmaster's Challenge). This is probably the closest to Dead Space that I've seen in a Marathon TC. It's also notable for having a surprising mid-game twist that turns the entire game on its head.

Marathon Phoenix - This game also goes balls-to-the-wall, but this time with its combat. A radical overhaul of an earlier scenario called "The Grey Incident". Intended by its author to onboard Doom players to Marathon, it's has a tone styled after Marathon Infinity but with unrelenting moment-to-moment gameplay styled after Doom.

Marathon Rubicon - The closest we will likely ever get to a direct sequel to Marathon 2 and Marathon Infinity, with an all-new arsenal, some new interesting enemies, and a non-linear storyline with two branches. Scott Lund and D. Scott Phoenix went to great lengths to craft a scenario that matched Bungie/Double Aught's original verve with M1 to Infinity, and whether or not they succeeded is a matter of some debate. The "Rubicon X" update added an entirely new third plot branch that has to be seen to be believed.

Marathon Eternal - A sprawling time-travelling epic that attempts to unify the disparate plot threads of Marathon 1 and 2, Marathon Infinity and Pathways into Darkness, even with some oblique Halo references thrown into the mix. It's an utterly massive scenario with some truly interesting set pieces.

Marathon Apotheosis X - A radical rebuild of a stalled scenario called "Gates of Fenris", this 2022 scenario takes full advantage of the features of Aleph One, the open-sourced version of the Marathon 2/Infinity Engine, with monster sprites utilizing additional frames of animation, for very fluid in-game motion. Features an awesome all-new roster of weapons and enemies. Notable for stressing more skill-based gameplay, with a player arsenal that de-emphasizes hitscan weaponry.

Marathon Squadron - If Phoenix attempted to put Doom in Marathon, Squadron attempts to put CoD/MoH in Marathon, with a human antagonist government fighting the UESC for control of the homeworld of the defeated Pfhor. Features a roster of brutal weapons that are almost all hitscan, with the exception of the pistol, shotgun and rocket launcher. (Oh don't worry, your almost all-human enemies have hitscan weapons too :)

Marathon Trojan - A port of a popular total conversion released for the original Marathon. A game with a somewhat darker tone that I think was inspired by Aliens.

Marathon Istoria - An all new short 10-level total conversion released in 2023 which massively changes Marathon's gameplay, introducing player classes, passive/active abilities, dialogue (even with dead people, á la Pathways into Darkness) and other RPG elements.
 

aibloop

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Aug 5, 2020
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unpopular opinion: An extraction shooter where the story develops as players unlock the game... CAN be good, but how does it not become a tedious grind for "artifacts"

No way bungie does Marathon in a sub-optimal way. I loved Marathon Lan parties, one of my most played single player games too.

IF it had been a re-imagining of the Marathon series, it would ofcourse have been incredible... But that is a rough ask, perhaps if this goes well they might go in for it. Who knows.


At the very least it is a new game in the marathon universe...
 
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Spaceboi Scaphandre

macrumors 68040
Jun 8, 2022
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unpopular opinion: An extraction shooter where the story develops as players unlock the game... CAN be good, but how does it not become a tedious grind for "artifacts"

No way bungie does Marathon in a sub-optimal way. I loved Marathon Lan parties, one of my most played single player games too.

IF it had been a re-imagining of the Marathon series, it would ofcourse have been incredible... But that is a rough ask, perhaps if this goes well they might go in for it. Who knows.


At the very least it is a new game in the marathon universe...

Not to mention Sony's gonna have possibly another extraction shooter coming soon with The Last of Us Factions, and there's gonna be a lot more eyes on that since it's The Last of Us and Naughty Dog already said they got a developing narrative planned for that game.
 
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