Can We Put the 16GB "Pro" Myth to Rest?

[MattSeven]

Maybe Apple should just put a handle on the mac pro. People could carry it around like a giant cup of coffee that can render video like a boss.

Everyone complaining about a laptop not being powerful enough should maybe consider the iMac with an iLugger. They're getting refreshed, and the 21" is only 12lbs. For the "Obviously all us professionals keep it plugged in, anyway" crowd.

"Oh...you care about portability...well...have I got a dream of portability for you. It's called the Mac Book Pro."

 

[Antairez]

Yeah that's kinda true, although oversimplified. If your SSD was fast enough you technically wouldn't need any RAM. The reason we have tiered memory (L1, L2, L3, L4 cache, RAM, Disk) is simply because large amounts of fast memory is very expensive. The bottleneck presently is most likely the disk and then the AES-NI encryption accelerator. NVMe SSD is so fast now a days that you could in theory dedicate a whole drive just for memory swap space and essentially increase your RAM to hundreds of gigabytes.

Which means knowing that RAM is limited, most software don't overuse it unless they really need to. Again, having 32GB RAM doesn't mean they can all be utilized. On the other hand, having a faster RAM (like DDR5, who knows when thats gonna come out), does make a significant difference. Reducing the tiers between different speed of storages "might" help, assuming its IO can match or surpass both the bandwidth and latency of current RAM. Size is not the only bottleneck.

 

[spacebro]

Everyone complaining about a laptop not being powerful enough should maybe consider the iMac with an iLugger. They're getting refreshed, and the 21" is only 12lbs. For the "Obviously all us professionals keep it plugged in, anyway" crowd.

"Oh...you care about portability...well...have I got a dream of portability for you. It's called the Mac Book Pro."

They should put a battery in imacs- even imacs that never move need a ups.

 

[Zwhaler]

Excellent and true article.

https://www.zdziarski.com/blog/?p=6355

I am not a fanboy defending Apple, this is just how things are. I am a professional working in the game development industry for 10 years. I do everything from working in demanding 3D software, working on huge 8k textures (that's 8192x8129, almost 70 megapixel images) in Photoshop with lots of layers and sculpting in Zbrush and 3D Coat to running 3ds Max and Windows 10 in Parallels. I have 16Gb of RAM on my iMac, on my MacBook Pro, on my Windows 10 machine at work. I never ran out of memory.

I am not saying that no one needs more than 16. Some people do. Apple should give us the option to have 32Gb and hopefully - it will be available next year. What I am saying is that for a lot.... A LOT of "pros" - 16Gb is enough. And most people just think they need more, arbitrarily.

To quote the article:

"The MacBook Pro, as I’ve demonstrated, is more than capable of running a ridiculous number of “pro” apps without crossing the 16GB limit. It is, without a doubt, capable of adequately serving a vast majority of resource-hungry professionals such as myself, without breaking a sweat. The only thing, incidentally, breaking a sweat, are the people complaining about the number 16 on social media without actually understanding just how far that number gets you."

Meh. Final Cut Pro X has been chewing up memory since 2011. There are times when it could easily exceed 48GB in my usage. So 16GB is not enough for me to be comfortable on a $4,199 machine. I'm not bashing Apple; I understand why they did it (although I would prefer a thicker laptop with more battery and better performance). Apple knows that their pro customers wanted more than 16GB, but they weren't willing to sacrifice thinness. It's all about priorities. The debate stems from Apple claiming to represent professional interests, when in fact they are compromising in the name of aesthetics.

 

[jjjoseph]

Maybe Apple should just put a handle on the mac pro. People could carry it around like a giant cup of coffee that can render video like a boss.

The MacPro that came out over 3 years ago? The Dual D700s, their high end option of that day is surpassed by at least a factor of 3 if not 4 or 5 by the GTX 1080, and they haven't even done the GTX 1080 ti.

The MacPro was another "as small as possible" build option just to be "different" or "brave" where is the MacPro now? Technology purgatory! Because of the extreme build.

Hopefully that purgatory is not the fate of all Apples products that run MacOS.

 

[spacebro]

The MacPro that came out over 3 years ago? The Dual D700s, their high end option of that day is surpassed by at least a factor of 3 if not 4 or 5 by the GTX 1080, and they haven't even done the GTX 1080 ti.

The MacPro was another "as small as possible" build option just to be "different" or "brave" where is the MacPro now? Technology purgatory! Because of the extreme build.

Hopefully that purgatory is not the fate of all Apples products that run MacOS.

Its not like apple doesn't have the resources to refresh the mac pro because its too hard or expensive. It is because they chose not to do it.

 

[zedsdeadbaby]

Where did I - or the article I linked - mention that 16Gb is enough for ALL people? I clearly said, and that article clearly said - that it's more than enough for MOST professionals today. You're not "most".

You people keep mentioning your specific usage cases - but the fact is - for a LOT of people, this is the best compromise between mobility and power. I don't see how "but I need more than 16Gb" has anything to do with that statement.
[doublepost=1478822331][/doublepost]

It's been made apparently clear that it is a physical limitation of the hardware. More than 16Gb would require a larger battery because they couldn't use LPDDR4, and that would mean the laptop would be heavier, even more than the previous generation, and - as someone noticed on these forums - you wouldn't be able to take it on airplanes because of regulations. Unless they made the battery life significantly worse - and that's a compromise Apple is not ready to make. Others are, so you'll have to either wait, or get a Dell/HP/Whatever.

Uh where did I say that that ALL people needed 16 GB? Just as you said some do and some don't, I said the same thing. Just because I'm not you doesn't mean my own needs don't reflect the reality of others, and you wouldn't see regular requests for this if it weren't useful for some.

 

[Karnicopia]

The MacPro that came out over 3 years ago? The Dual D700s, their high end option of that day is surpassed by at least a factor of 3 if not 4 or 5 by the GTX 1080, and they haven't even done the GTX 1080 ti.

The MacPro was another "as small as possible" build option just to be "different" or "brave" where is the MacPro now? Technology purgatory! Because of the extreme build.

Hopefully that purgatory is not the fate of all Apples products that run MacOS.

Which is kind of ironic because what a lot of people seem to be looking for is basically a mobile desktop.

 

[BarracksSi]

if you're editing 4k and 8k, why are you doing it on a laptop.

I'd be looking at a more powerful suitable desktop for that work.

Never mind editing it -- how are any of us consumers going to see 4k and 8k? Bandwidth still sucks enough that 1080p is the highest resolution I can select with a reasonably low chance of buffering (720 streams better and, frankly, is just as watchable).

16k video?? What for? Now you want me to install an IMAX screen at home?

 

[burgman]

And a again, in what scenario are you looking at where a desktop doesn't make sense but a 32GB Ram workflow is required? You are talking about some cloud computing scenarios where multiple CPUs would be accessing the RAM at the same time, your laptop is just the commander in control in this scenario, and all it needs is just a web browser so that you could login to your AWS account.

I'm not saying having the limit capped at 16GB is a good thing, but in reality maybe only 0.001% of the prospective buyers would actually need it, while 100% of the consumers will benefit from the 3mms thinner unibody.

The choice is very obvious to me even I know nothing about user experience or industrial design.

Most of the whining about these machines try to convince us that the bell shape curve doesn't exist and their possible use case is the norm. If there was an expanding market for their niche you can bet Apple would still be there.

 

[jjjoseph]

Its not like apple doesn't have the resources to refresh the mac pro because its too hard or expensive. It is because they chose not to do it.

Obviously it's not where they make their money. Tim the bean counter isn't making his margins on desktops. There's not really a need to keep the desktop user happy. I helped setup an animation company at one point. All MacPros. Last gen silver towers, 4,1 and 5,1. I checked in with them recently and the whole company is PCs now. No one is animating on OS X anymore all Windows. They couldn't upgrade past the 5,1s. This is happening all over the country. Doesn't hurt Apples profit margins at all. That's why they don't really care.

Never mind editing it -- how are any of us consumers going to see 4k and 8k? Bandwidth still sucks enough that 1080p is the highest resolution I can select with a reasonably low chance of buffering (720 streams better and, frankly, is just as watchable).

16k video?? What for? Now you want me to install an IMAX screen at home?

Those are acquisition formats. Even back in the days of 35mm celluloid, when you watched Batmas on a VHS tape the source of the media you where watching could be considered 16k, but your final viewing was only 640x480 or 720x480. So just because people are saying 16k doesn't mean that's the final distribution resolution. Cameras will always want more imagery information. Both still and moving.

These source aqusition formats will always be increasing in size. Just because 720p webcam looks fine for chatting, Netflix or iTunes doesn't mean that digital download or Netflix movie your watching wasn't shot at 16k.

 

[aevan]

Its funny that people are arguing against someones choice. The fact that I need 32Gb of RAM for video, doesn't mean that a programmer needs 32GB of RAM, but because some people running VM's and other programmers don't need 32GB, then I don't 32GB, and if I do need 32GB of RAM, I don't need a laptop!

Why don't we let the consumer decide... A laptop with an i7 should be able to have 32GB of RAM. I think the point is that if people want 32GB of RAM let them have it!! If you don't need 32GB of RAM, don't get it and get 16GB, don't tell me I don't need it. No one can say that their is not a reason for them to have 32GB. If I want a laptop with 32GB of RAM, then I should be able to get one.

Apple agrees. And as soon as they're able to offer it with good portability while maintaining good battery life, they will give you that option. Sadly, this is not possible today for various reasons (and anyone who says "just to make them 3mm thinner" doesn't understand the real issue and is grossly oversimplifying) - maybe next year, though.

 

[jjjoseph]

Most of the whining about these machines try to convince us that the bell shape curve doesn't exist and their possible use case is the norm. If there was an expanding market for their niche you can bet Apple would still be there.

I would say that technology moving forward is not a NICHE, but progress, spec wise this MacBook Pro is borderline dated on its release date, then when Kaby Lake comes out, it will be dated even more. Apple does hold its resale value, but now that they are more expensive for a smaller build, you should be able to get a BEEFED out one so your a little more future proof.

 

[Freida]

Excellent and true article.

https://www.zdziarski.com/blog/?p=6355

I am not a fanboy defending Apple, this is just how things are. I am a professional working in the game development industry for 10 years. I do everything from working in demanding 3D software, working on huge 8k textures (that's 8192x8129, almost 70 megapixel images) in Photoshop with lots of layers and sculpting in Zbrush and 3D Coat to running 3ds Max and Windows 10 in Parallels. I have 16Gb of RAM on my iMac, on my MacBook Pro, on my Windows 10 machine at work. I never ran out of memory.

I am not saying that no one needs more than 16. Some people do. Apple should give us the option to have 32Gb and hopefully - it will be available next year. What I am saying is that for a lot.... A LOT of "pros" - 16Gb is enough. And most people just think they need more, arbitrarily.

To quote the article:

"The MacBook Pro, as I’ve demonstrated, is more than capable of running a ridiculous number of “pro” apps without crossing the 16GB limit. It is, without a doubt, capable of adequately serving a vast majority of resource-hungry professionals such as myself, without breaking a sweat. The only thing, incidentally, breaking a sweat, are the people complaining about the number 16 on social media without actually understanding just how far that number gets you."

I wonder how can you do any work on 16GB ram. I work in VFX and my machine at work is 48GB or 64GB (depending on a show). I would not be able to do anything with 16GB. My 2010 mac pro had 24-32GB (can't remember now) anyway, 16GB for some people is laughable for a PRO laptop. Yes, you can get desktop or Mac Pro but if you market MBP as PRO then the CTO should reflect. And I think those people won't even care that their battery life is shorter my 2 hours a day as they don't edit on battery most likely!
Its not a myth, its reality for some so please don't dismiss it.

Last year I worked on a major blockbuster and initially we started with 32GB machines but soon found out that some of the scenes were not even loading in Maya as Maya would crash. It was until they upgraded us to 64GB that we were able to do any work. 16GB works for you? Fine, your work is less demanding. Wasn't fine for us.
(not saying that we were on MBP but just staying on point with your 16GB Myth - its reality for some)

 

[spacebro]

Most of the whining about these machines try to convince us that the bell shape curve doesn't exist and their possible use case is the norm. If there was an expanding market for their niche you can bet Apple would still be there.

I don't make a lot of money on ios projects but I take them because it would be harder to market myself with "I do hardware, software, web applications, and apps- except for ios".

I wonder how can you do any work on 16GB ram. I work in VFX and my machine at work is 48GB or 64GB (depending on a show). I would not be able to do anything with 16GB. My 2010 mac pro had 24-32GB (can't remember now) anyway, 16GB for some people is laughable for a PRO laptop. Yes, you can get desktop or Mac Pro but if you market MBP as PRO then the CTO should reflect. And I think those people won't even care that their battery life is shorter my 2 hours a day as they don't edit on battery most likely!
Its not a myth, its reality for some so please don't dismiss it.

Last year I worked on a major blockbuster and initially we started with 32GB machines but soon found out that some of the scenes were not even loading in Maya as Maya would crash. It was until they upgraded us to 64GB that we were able to do any work. 16GB works for you? Fine, your work is less demanding. Wasn't fine for us.
(not saying that we were on MBP but just staying on point with your 16GB Myth - its reality for some)

Look at this machine that just came out- $3000 for 64gb fast ram, good cpu, and a gtx1080. This thing looks like a muscle car. I like how they don't try to hide the exhaust port, instead they styled the exhaust port. This thing is like a mustang where the macbook pro is more like a hyndai tiberon- marketed as a sports car but under the hood it is underpowered.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/asus-g752vs-oc-edition-gaming-laptop,4777.html

 

[New_Mac_Smell]

I don't make a lot of money on ios projects but I take them because it would be harder to market myself with "I do hardware, software, web applications, and apps- except for ios".


Look at this machine that just came out- $3000 for 64gb fast ram, good cpu, and a gtx1080. This thing looks like a muscle car. I like how they don't try to hide the exhaust port, instead they styled the exhaust port. This thing is like a mustang where the macbook pro is more like a hyndai tiberon- marketed as a sports car but under the hood it is underpowered.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/asus-g752vs-oc-edition-gaming-laptop,4777.html

That's one ugly machine! Looks like a Cylon and Kitt had a head on collision with the 1980s.

 

[aevan]

Wasn't fine for us.
(not saying that we were on MBP but just staying on point with your 16GB Myth - its reality for some)

For SOME. Not fot majority. That's the point. Are you really trying to tell me people work on major blockbusters.... on laptops?!

 

[zhenya]

Look at this machine that just came out- $3000 for 64gb fast ram, good cpu, and a gtx1080. This thing looks like a muscle car. I like how they don't try to hide the exhaust port, instead they styled the exhaust port. This thing is like a mustang where the macbook pro is more like a hyndai tiberon- marketed as a sports car but under the hood it is underpowered.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/asus-g752vs-oc-edition-gaming-laptop,4777.html

I'd argue you got the analogy wrong. That Asus is the Tiburon - lots of specs, lots of flash, with no taste. The MBP is an M3. Plenty of power in an understated package, and all about the balance.

 

[New_Mac_Smell]

I'd argue you got the analogy wrong. That Asus is the Tiburon - lots of specs, lots of flash, with no taste. The MBP is an M3. Plenty of power in an understated package, and all about the balance.

Points for the obligatory car references guys, took longer than I thought!

 

[aevan]

I don't make a lot of money on ios projects but I take them because it would be harder to market myself with "I do hardware, software, web applications, and apps- except for ios".


Look at this machine that just came out- $3000 for 64gb fast ram, good cpu, and a gtx1080. This thing looks like a muscle car. I like how they don't try to hide the exhaust port, instead they styled the exhaust port. This thing is like a mustang where the macbook pro is more like a hyndai tiberon- marketed as a sports car but under the hood it is underpowered.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/asus-g752vs-oc-edition-gaming-laptop,4777.html

I think it's great you have a choice. If you want to lug that thing around and you don't need more than 3 hours of battery life - it's good you have that option.

For me - it's a laptop I would never buy. You mention it as if it's somehow objectively better. It's not. Specs aren't everything and that monstrosity is the perfect example. Fortunately, I have a choice too - it's the MacBook Pro.

 

[jackoatmon]

my eyes are burning

was that thing designed based on a drawing of a spaceship done by an 11-yr old ?

 

[aevan]

my eyes are burning

was that thing designed based on a drawing of a spaceship done by an 11-yr old ?

You don't understand it because you're not a true pro.

 

[spacebro]

What is professional about putting form over function?

 

[aevan]

What is professional about putting form over function?

What is professional about putting overclocked gaming specs over build quality, autonomy and mobility?

 

[spacebro]

Anything less than the macbook pro is a "total dog" and anything more is a "poor quality gaming machine". Got it.