Can we talk about the fanlessness

[6749974]

A personal computer is meant for heavier, more resource intensive tasks than a tablet and smartphone (which is essentially a miniature tablet). Secondly, the iPhone and iPad both run slower and hotter a couple of years after they were released if they are running one of the last versions of iOS/iPadOS that support them.

What about now, Thomas? The first iPhone came out in 2007, Apple designed their first ARM chip in 2010, and its now 14 years of Apple Silicon becoming more and more powerful yet more efficient. Why don't iPhones have fans now? Can you answer that?

Do you think that the intensity of tasks can be plotted on a chart along an axis with different customer types; where maybe theres a segment of customers on the left that don't need to edit 8K RAW or train a large language model?

Thomas, are you able to discern various categories of customer that maybe doesn't need their laptop to act as an enterprise-class workstation? And maybe because of that, those devices don't need fans?

 

[MayaUser]

What about now, Thomas? The first iPhone came out in 2007 but its now 17 years later Thomas. Why don't iPhones have fans now? Can you answer that?

Do you think that the intensity of tasks can be plotted on a chart along an axis with different customer types; where maybe theres a segment of customers on the left that don't need to edit 8K RAW or train a large language model?

Thomas, are you able to discern various categories of customer that maybe doesn't need their laptop to act as an enterprise-class workstation? And maybe because of that, those devices don't need fans?

if you told him 15 years ago that the iphone will be 50 times more powerful without any active cooling ...probably he was making fun and call us names
Some people dont understand tech, and device categories thats fine but dont act like one, better ask questions and learn
Thats applies for ipads and also even for the both Macbook Airs that are smaller, thinner without a fan now and still 10 times more powerful in any tasks and with far better battery life

 

[ApplesAreSweet&Sour]

Meticulously spec'ed, tiered and priced to always have you spending more now or regret that you didn't very soon.

That's literally Tim Cook's expertise and why he's so popular with the shareholders.

Which Macs get fans and which don't most certainly are as much a part of Apple's Mac product strategy as is the fact that the fan equipped but low-value 14" MBP only comes with 8GB RAM and the same SoC as the one MacBooks Air get.

Apple only offers good value and modern specs and hardware in a MacBook once you go beyond $1999. Has been like that for at least 10 years or more.

Tell me that one or two fans in a $1099 MacBook is not something anyone wants if Apple was, hypothetically, generous enough to let you configure one in for free or as a $200-$400 custom configuration?

The issue for Apple is that at least half of all MacBook Pro buyers would spec up and settle for a MacBook Air over a Pro if the Airs came with active cooling.

 

[Torty]

Am I the only one who hates that Apple removed the fans on the MacBook Airs when they transitioned to Apple Silicon?

How could any one see it as a "feature" having no active cooling at all, what is the good in that? I only feel that people has been tricked into thinking that this is a good feature.

I don't like computers that makes unnecessary noise, sure, but even with our 2015 Air noise isn't really a problem (even though it has an old Intel processor). During light work you never hear the fan. Imagine it having a M{1,2,3}, the computer would handle much heavier work before you would notice the fan.

To me, the real reasons for Apple to remove the fan and market it as a feature are (1) forcing people to buy more than what they need (MacBook Pro) and (2) save 1 or 2 bucks in the manufacturing of these laptops.

Of course no. 1 is more important to Apple.

What do you think?

Fanless design was a big selling point for me. No noise, no dust inside the machine.

 

[G5isAlive]

Tell me that one or two fans in a $1099 MacBook is not something anyone wants if Apple was, hypothetically, generous enough to let you configure one in for free or as a $200-$400 custom configuration?

I don’t have to tell you, read this thread. Most of those that replied here that actually own an mba said not having a fan was a feature , a reason to buy the mba, not a deficit. If they wanted a fan they would’ve bought the MBP. That’s not just my words, though I agree, that’s their thoughts. But here’s the fallacy in your statement, it ignores that a mba with a fan would have to be re-engineered to accommodate them including case mods to strengthen them to accommodate the new vent holes, and sizing to hold the fans. What would you have then? Not an MBA, but a MBP case. Before Tim Cook pricing arguments comes physics and material engineering. It’s not magic.

 

[za9ra22]

Tell me that one or two fans in a $1099 MacBook is not something anyone wants if Apple was, hypothetically, generous enough to let you configure one in for free or as a $200-$400 custom configuration?

The issue for Apple is that at least half of all MacBook Pro buyers would spec up and settle for a MacBook Air over a Pro if the Airs came with active cooling.

Pretty much nobody has said they'd want an Air with a fan, so claiming out of thin air that we want exactly that if Apple made one is nonsense based on a total lack of evidence.

Nor would it seem remotely possible to realistically speak for a volume of buyers in such a sweeping generalization, when it seems entirely logical to put it the other way around, that if so many people actually did want an actively cooled machine, Apple would more than likely make it.

Incredibly, for such a vast and successful business as Apple undoubtedly is, you can only be saying that they haven't much idea of who their customers are and what they want, yet you, with your personal insights, actually do. I find that hard to believe, but I'm willing to read through your sources if you'd care to post them for us to review. I'm sure that with such absolute certainty, there must be something other than guesswork to base your assertions upon?

 

[AcornHat]

Tell me that one or two fans in a $1099 MacBook is not something anyone wants if Apple was, hypothetically, generous enough to let you configure one in for free or as a $200-$400 custom configuration?

The issue for Apple is that at least half of all MacBook Pro buyers would spec up and settle for a MacBook Air over a Pro if the Airs came with active cooling.

I just made an account to post this.

I have been pining for a fully fanless computer since the 486 days, so pushing 30 years. Not quiet, fanless. I used to scour catalogs looking for the biggest, quietest, fanless heat sinks and PSUs available. I would run my computer caseless to keep it cool enough to not need a fan. I despise computer fans.

Now that I FINALLY have a fanless computer, I will never go back. I will never purchase a computer with a fan ever again, absolutely no exceptions...and if Apple puts one back in the Air, I'll move on to something else. I don't care how quiet they are or if they never spin up. No thank you.

After my M1 Air, fans are a dealbreaker. Fan = no buy.

An iPad is not an option. The OS sucks.

 

[raythompsontn]

Secondly, the iPhone and iPad both run slower and hotter a couple of years after they were released if they are running one of the last versions of iOS/iPadOS that support them.

My two year old iPad runs fine on the latest IOS. Even runs cool. Amazing.

 

[cheesygrin]

I actually like what Apple did with this. The SoC on MacBooks is built on the same platform as the iPhone - I’m guessing you’re pretty grateful your phone doesn’t need an active cooling fan.

Fans are now the only active moving mechanical part in a laptop, and therefore the most susceptible component to damage and wear. They also add a lot of bulk and space to the design, and actively draw dust from the environment into the chassis.

These would be compromises worth making if the chip really needed active cooling - but it doesn’t. For all the needs of a standard M-series user (non Pro or Max) the chip runs absolutely fine without it, and the Airs are better machines for it.

 

[Torty]

Those who praise Tim Cook's anti-consumer actions of removing the fan in order to maximize profits, will likely regret it in a couple of years when their MacBook Air is running slow on one of the last versions of macOS that supports it, since those versions will demand significantly more system resources.

The alternative would be permanent active fans with only a small performance gain. Wouldn’t help at all to make the device “usable”.

 

[6749974]

Which Macs get fans and which don't most certainly are as much a part of Apple's Mac product strategy as is the fact that the fan equipped but low-value 14" MBP only comes with 8GB RAM and the same SoC as the one MacBooks Air get.

Before:

• Intel MacBook Airs were weak email machines

Now:

• Fanless MacBook Airs are so powerful they cause tradition-MacBook Pro buyers to consider the less expensive MacBook Air instead

As I stated here, I used to buy MacBook Pros that (adjusted for inflation) cost me $3200-3900. I'm now buying MacBook Airs that cost me $1700-2100. I'm getting a 46% discount on price. And the Air has no dust so its less prone to failure.

So if anything, Tim Cook is losing money!

 

[SkweeBop]

Having worked for a few years now with a fanless M1 Mini at home, I am planning to get that fanless Air as my next laptop. The noiseless option for remote audio/recording work is a game-changer. I have had to use sound barriers with my 2015 MBP because the fan was getting so loud.

 

[6749974]

Having worked for a few years now with a fanless M1 Mini at home, I am planning to get that fanless Air as my next laptop. The noiseless option for remote audio/recording work is a game-changer. I have had to use sound barriers with my 2015 MBP because the fan was getting so loud.

M1 Mac mini (2020) does have a single fan. Here's a video with timestamp showing where it is.

 

[SkweeBop]

[gasps] Well, it has never kicked on! The machine has only ever gotten warm when I played Tomb Raider 2013 through Steam!

 

[uller6]

Before:

• Intel MacBook Airs were weak email machines

Now:

• Fanless MacBook Airs are so powerful they cause tradition-MacBook Pro buyers to consider the less expensive MacBook Air instead

As I stated here, I used to buy MacBook Pros that (adjusted for inflation) cost me $3200-3900. I'm now buying MacBook Airs that cost me $1700-2100. I'm getting a 46% discount on price. And the Air has no dust so its less prone to failure.

So if anything, Tim Cook is losing money!

I was in the same boat! I once paid $4500 for a top spec MBP just to get the best single-threaded speeds. Now the air has the same single core speed as the top end MBP, and even the M1 single core speed is way faster than I need anymore. Quality of life is majorly improved.

Having worked for a few years now with a fanless M1 Mini at home, I am planning to get that fanless Air as my next laptop. The noiseless option for remote audio/recording work is a game-changer. I have had to use sound barriers with my 2015 MBP because the fan was getting so loud.

Quality of life! This game of squeezing for the absolute top cpu speeds no matter the cost is just silly.

Computers are tools, they should get out of your way and let you get work done. And nothing gets out of my way like silence.

 

[SkweeBop]

I was in the same boat! I once paid $4500 for a top spec MBP just to get the best single-threaded speeds. Now the air has the same single core speed as the top end MBP, and even the M1 single core speed is way faster than I need anymore. Quality of life is majorly improved.

Quality of life! This game of squeezing for the absolute top cpu speeds no matter the cost is just silly.

Computers are tools, they should get out of your way and let you get work done. And nothing gets out of my way like silence.

Yeah, my SLEEPING Macbook Pro is making more noise than my Mini. The fact that the mini screams through the audio and video editing I do is the deal.

 

[za9ra22]

Yeah, my SLEEPING Macbook Pro is making more noise than my Mini. The fact that the mini screams through the audio and video editing I do is the deal.

I'm not sure that 'screaming' through the work you do is necessarily the exact meaning you intended! But certainly the first and biggest improvement I noticed when migrating from a MacBook Pro to an M1 Air was the absolute peace and quiet.

Seriously though, I can't make any sense out of the argument that a fan is needed because what we need more than anything is sheer power and performance. This was true once, but since the majority of users could work quite comfortably with the performance levels of a few years ago, and an AS Mac can outdo that even with no fan, there just doesn't seem to be any advantage in shoving one in, just so those who love the whining noise can continue to enjoy it.

I suspect some people opt not to believe in the laws of physics, and assume system designers can't work out rates of thermal resistance and heat dissipation with a simple calculator. It is, quite literally, not rocket science.

 

[NewOldStock]

There is going to be more fanless designs using Ai to control heat settings.
With advanced heat removing technologies like heat pipes and vapor chambers fans not really needed in a lot of use cases anymore. Metallurgy tech also has came a long way to conduct heat away from processors.
Ipad and tablets in general will be paper thin is the idea. Laptops thinner and desktops smaller.
When all the ports on a laptop become wireless imagine how thin they would be.
Just like most tech smaller is always in the plans. Less materials in a product =savings to the mfg.

 

[NewOldStock]

 

[Populus]

Look, I had a 13” 2017 MacBook Pro with the Kaby Lake CPU, I had it for a month, and even tho it had a fan, the fan was most of the time inactive (not moving). I’m not saying at a minimum speed, no, I’m saying zero rpm’s. How do I know? Because I usually install fan/temperature monitoring apps on my Mac.

That wasn’t even an Apple Silicon chip! It was an Intel 14nm++++ CPU, and despite that, the fan wasn’t needed for most tasks. Unless you started to tax it with demanding workloads.

Apple Silicon SoCs are more efficient, better regulate their voltage/temperature, and are much more powerful than Intel dual core CPUs. So, if the Kaby Lake CPU didn’t need a fan to perform well, the M series chip don’t need it either, at least with the use that the MacBook Air is oriented to.

Just to make a final note, if you think you want to extract the most power to your M3 MacBook, and you don’t mind a heavier/bulkier laptop, the M3 MacBook Pro should be a great choice, just don’t pick the 8GB model.

If you still want to get a MacBook Air, then you can always buy a cheap base with a cooling fan pushing air to the bottom of the laptop, you don’t need to open the computer if you don’t want to! Although putting the thermal pad would make it even more efficient.

 

[6749974]

Yeah, my SLEEPING Macbook Pro is making more noise than my Mini. The fact that the mini screams through the audio and video editing I do is the deal.

Silently screams...hehe

 

[Zest28]

Am I the only one who hates that Apple removed the fans on the MacBook Airs when they transitioned to Apple Silicon?

How could any one see it as a "feature" having no active cooling at all, what is the good in that? I only feel that people has been tricked into thinking that this is a good feature.

I don't like computers that makes unnecessary noise, sure, but even with our 2015 Air noise isn't really a problem (even though it has an old Intel processor). During light work you never hear the fan. Imagine it having a M{1,2,3}, the computer would handle much heavier work before you would notice the fan.

To me, the real reasons for Apple to remove the fan and market it as a feature are (1) forcing people to buy more than what they need (MacBook Pro) and (2) save 1 or 2 bucks in the manufacturing of these laptops.

Of course no. 1 is more important to Apple.

What do you think?

Indeed, the fanless design makes no sense. My 13" M2 MacBook Air thermal throttles a lot, it's not even funny. The only reason I got the M2 MacBook Air over the M2 MacBook Pro, was because the MacBook Air had a redesign but the 13" MacBook Pro was still on the old design.

But nowadays, the 13" MBP has been "redesigned" as the entry 14" MBP. I didn't have this choice back then.

And people who complain about fan noise, my 16" M1 Max MacBook Pro is just as quite as my M2 MacBook Air. In cases where the M2 MacBook Air would thermal throttle, only then the fans of the 16" M1 Max MacBook Pro might kick in.

 

[TechnoMonk]

...

That literally was my 2019 MBP. Had to use noise canceling headphones to work on that machine. My M1 Max with 90% CPU and 90% GPU is so quiet, I some time have to check if it is still working, and not frozen or unresponsive.

 

[TechnoMonk]

Indeed, the fanless design makes no sense. My 13" M2 MacBook Air thermal throttles a lot, it's not even funny. The only reason I got the M2 MacBook Air over the M2 MacBook Pro, was because the MacBook Air had a redesign but the 13" MacBook Pro was still on the old design.

But nowadays, the 13" MBP has been "redesigned" as the entry 14" MBP. I didn't have this choice back then.

And people who complain about fan noise, my 16" M1 Max MacBook Pro is just as quite as my M2 MacBook Air. In cases where the M2 MacBook Air would thermal throttle, only then the fans of the 16" M1 Max MacBook Pro might kick in.

I have a base M2 MBA, which my family shares and I have M1 max, 64 GB for my professional use. MBA M1 rarely gets warm/hot for regular use. My M1 runs warm even under heavy load and stays quiet. But, I can’t expect Apple to make MBA like my MBP. You just bought a product that is not designed and targeted for sustained load.

 

[uller6]

Indeed, the fanless design makes no sense. My 13" M2 MacBook Air thermal throttles a lot, it's not even funny.

Ok, let’s change our nomenclature then. The MacBook Air has an extra 10-15% turbo boost speed while cold, then reverts to baseline performance when it heats up. The MacBook Air can sustain turbo boost for at about 10 minutes before it drops back.

MacBook pros can run at turbo boost speeds indefinitely thanks to their fans.

Intel MacBook pros couldn’t even maintain their rated turbo boost speeds for more than a minute or two. OR, literally every single intel MacBook Pro/air since 2010 was severely throttled.

See what I did there? Same end result.