Can we talk about the fanlessness

[Torty]

Okay. Fair enough. Let's try this another way. The base model of the MBP has the exact same chip as the MBA. There are other differences (screen for example), but the performance is the chip, so same chip, similar performance. That's the assumption for a lot of the Apple Silicon Macs. The MBA does not have a fan. The MBP does. The argument is this makes the MBP so much better, because the chance of it thermal throttling is lower. Note the presence of a fan does NOT add cpu cycles, so performance can not be better than 100%. I assumed people could visualize 100%. Okay my bad.

In this graph, the green shaded area represents available performance over extended stress conditions. It gets less, but not by much. The red, is the theoretical maximum that could be 'reclaimed' IF the MBA had a fan (like the MBP does). Point is it's not a lot. A typical MBA customer never causes the machine to get warm, so it performs close to 100% all the time. But even when pushed hard, the performance degradation (the red area) just isn't a lot (compared to the green area). Does it fall enough to warrant one spending money on the MBP? Might for some, doesn't for a lot.

So. Let the customer decide if they want a fan or not. I have previously outlined the advantages of NOT having a fan. The idea of pushing fans on all of us, as the OP might want and some others, is an opinion not shared by many that currently own a MBA, and I dont think is supported by the facts.

My apologies in advance that the graph isnt as pretty but I ran out of time. I hope it gets the point across. And my thanks again to Mike Boreham for doing the real work in providing the raw data. Data talks in my world.

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Thanks I found it helpful to know the cinebenchmark runs ca. 2 mins so the graph is now very understandable to me.

 

[TheWraith]

That's a great chart, G5.

 

[Tagbert]

Precisely for the reason of thermal throttling I didn’t even look at M1 Air when I bought my M1 MacBook Pro, and I never regret that choice of spending (quite) a bit of extra. Not only M1 CPU/GPU power is lagging behind for me today despite no “heavy usage” (cough, video editing, cough), processor temp easily shoot to 70C range, though if I only use Safari the temp can sometimes go as low as 29C. The fan noise however, is noticeably lower than my Windows PC which ramps up fans often and sound Louder.

With that being said, fan-less design has its place, for example in places where ambient noise must be kept in a minimum, and introducing a fan may impact the acceptable noise level. Combined with longstanding history of Mac being used as machine for music production, fan-less is more preferable when processing power of the machine meets the requirements. I don’t like fan-less design, but that’s just me (and some others).

(Yeah count me also “hate” fan-less design -.-)

If we did video editing daily, then we might want a design with a fan, but that's not the case. I did a small video two months ago. I have no idea if it throttled while rendering that video or not. it did the job and finished quickly enough that I didn't care. It may be months before I do another video. I don't see any point to measuring my CPU speed.

Meanwhile, Firefox works fine in this fanless MBA.


Why would I want a fan in my MBA? It sounds like you bought the machine designed for your needs and I bought the one designed for my needs. Good news all around!

 

[Supermallet]

Meticulously spec'ed, tiered and priced to always have you spending more now or regret that you didn't very soon.

That's literally Tim Cook's expertise and why he's so popular with the shareholders.

Which Macs get fans and which don't most certainly are as much a part of Apple's Mac product strategy as is the fact that the fan equipped but low-value 14" MBP only comes with 8GB RAM and the same SoC as the one MacBooks Air get.

Apple only offers good value and modern specs and hardware in a MacBook once you go beyond $1999. Has been like that for at least 10 years or more.

Tell me that one or two fans in a $1099 MacBook is not something anyone wants if Apple was, hypothetically, generous enough to let you configure one in for free or as a $200-$400 custom configuration?

The issue for Apple is that at least half of all MacBook Pro buyers would spec up and settle for a MacBook Air over a Pro if the Airs came with active cooling.

Incredible how wrong this take is. The Intel era MacBook Airs were truly only good for the lightest workloads: email, word processing, and web surfing. And that was with fans! In the Intel era if you did any computing of consequence you HAD to buy a MBP.

The M series MBA models are so powerful and with such unbelievable battery life that it has prompted many former MBP owners and diehards to switch to the Air line. I’m one of them. The lack of fans is not some el cheapo switcheroo designed to force people to upgrade, it’s a design feature that differentiates the Air models from the Pro models. No fans mean the case can be sealed. A sealed case means no dust getting into the internals. No dust in the internals means one less point of failure. Additionally removing the fans means no moving parts in the entire device! What’s the trade off? A 6-15% performance hit on sustained loads when you get to the point of throttling. And that’s not to mention the lack of noise, which is the most obvious benefit.

You can bet that if Apple could engineer the M series Pro/Max/Ultra chips to stay cool under sustained loads without active cooling, they would ditch fans on the computers that use those chips. Fans are an imperfect solution to a limitation, the limitation being the upper limits of heat the chip can run at without damaging it or degrading its total life. They are a net good for computers with powerful chips that are being used for heavy computational tasks for sustained periods but if you could achieve that same outcome without fans, that’s an even bigger net positive.

So both the MBA and MBP are compromises. The MBA gets the benefits of having no fans, at the cost of thermal throttling under heavy load. The MBP gets the benefit of active cooling, at the cost of having a case with openings to let dust in, moving parts inside that can break down, and noise. If someone values the benefits of no fans and can live with the possibility of throttling, then having a fanless option is to Apple’s benefit. The lack of fan isn’t just there to force people to upgrade. It’s there because a segment of the customer base actively wants a fanless computer.

And the idea that Apple only offers good value in MacBooks above $1999 is absurd. For many people the base model MBA will be the best computer they’ve ever had. Even if you say you need to bump the RAM, storage, or both, you’re still under $2K for both sizes of MBA if you bump RAM, storage, or both up one from the base (8/512, 16/256, or 16/512). These are incredible computers, in part because they have no fans.

 

[Makisupa Policeman]

Ok! Didn't know the 12-inch had passive cooling, ut must've been heavily affected by throttling

But last part is what I mean, of course you can buy a laptop with a fan, Apple are so kind to offer you that, but for a price that is next level.


Yeah, I completely understand you if you never do anything that pushes the CPU or GPU. Of course the laptop will be nice and cool

And no, that analogy is just silly. It's not like the laptop would cost 1000 bucks more or be twice the size if there was a small fan inside. A more precise analogy would be that you buy a "lightweight" motorcycle which can only be driven short distances since the manufacturer has made it "radiator free". It's a perfectly capable bike but since the manufacturer want you to pay for their more expensive bikes, they have decided to hamper it.


Sure, no argument there. Would they be unhappy if it had a fan?


It is not good design if heat lowers the performance of the device. Even the M1 Air throttled heavily under load, especially with high GPU usage. And it gets so hot that it is not comfortable to touch.

The performance hit is even bigger with the M2 and M3.

You have to be pushing the M1 Air under pretty heavy sustained loads for it to get hot—I’m talking close to 100% CPU usage over 30 minutes or more. My M3 Pro gets almost as warm with a fan under less sustained load.

 

[engbren]

The M series MBA models are so powerful and with such unbelievable battery life that it has prompted many former MBP owners and diehards to switch to the Air line.

I went from MBA 11 inch 2011, MBA 11 inch 2014, MBA 13 inch 2017 to a MBP 13 inch in 2019. The earlier MBA's definitely spun up fans but fan noise was only noticeable under quite a lot of load. My MBP was the first Mac I owned with a Retina display and the first to noticeably have fan noise almost constantly. It was my least favourite Mac ever. Join a Teams meeting and the fans would spin up full blast, try to do it on battery and it would be a nail biter if you could finish the meeting without reaching for the charger. I returned to MBA with m1 and it has been phenomenal, silent, powerful and light. I'm yet to upgrade, there's really no need to at the moment as I haven't found anything that will stress it in my regular workload. The only reason I'd like a new one is for the slightly larger screen.

 

[Makisupa Policeman]

Apple isn't above criticism. But praising Huawei for stealing Apple's design language for the Air is some kind of irony. You undermine an otherwise interesting comment.

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EDIT: Reading the review on Notebookcheck.... The Huawei Matebook X Pro performance doesn't seem much better than a MacBook Air. And the average load fan noise is 42 db which is 68% higher than a MacBook Pro—and I would imagine the pitch is worse. You want that put into our fanless and silent MacBook Air? The case gets warm even when idling or performing light tasks. The display is 90Hz and only 90% DCI-P3 color space—where as the Air and MBP are at 99% DCI-P3. I interpret your comment to say that Apple leans toward the conservative side and has room to push it further should they choose. Valid opinion. I lean towards Apple's design decisions over Huawei, but everyone is allowed a preference.

EDIT 2: Notebook check says with their WLAN test, the Huawei Matebook X Pro 2023 version gets 4 hours at full brightness—where as the M3 Air gets 7 hours at full brightness—and the M3 Pro 14-inch MacBook Pro does 6:21 hours at full brightness. Oof. I'm going to slowly back away from this conversation and hug my MacBook Air.

I don't agree with your perspective.

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EDIT 3: Why does this supposed "metal laptop" look like a plastic piece of doo-doo.

Holy cow…has there ever been a product that tried to copy another one this hard? The design, color, and even the name? (Matebook sounds an awful lot like MacBook, and I’m sure that’s the point!) Yeeesh!

 

[Shirasaki]

You have to be pushing the M1 Air under pretty heavy sustained loads for it to get hot—I’m talking close to 100% CPU usage over 30 minutes or more. My M3 Pro gets almost as warm with a fan under less sustained load.

All it needs to let M1 run hot is running 2 games simultaneously or running one demanding game, well, mostly hot (71C according to sensors).
But that’s just me.

 

[Makisupa Policeman]

All it needs to let M1 run hot is running 2 games simultaneously or running one demanding game, well, mostly hot (71C according to sensors).
But that’s just me.

71 is definitely warm but hot-to-the- touch hot for our Air is like 85-90C and it has to be that high for at least a few minutes, not spiking up and down. I’m sure YMMV

 

[AlastorKatriona]

The MacBook Air doesn't need a fan. And without a fan, it can be a lot smaller, lighter and more portable. It's not a mystery if you're honest about it.

 

[Sowelu]

I have three M2 MacBook Airs and I have not once felt that they were held back or throttling in any way based on my use-cases. I do not push them as if they are Pros. If more power is needed (video editing, etc.), that's not what the Airs are for (though I am sure it can handle 'light' pro work in a pinch).

I want silent, impossibly thin and very light Airs. The 15" is perfect with its big screen, perfectly sized icons and text without having to adjust resolution, more desktop real-estate than a 14" Pro, and a great, comfortable balanced feel on your lap while typing.

 

[Torty]

For gaming it would make sense to have a fan cause in games every fps more might be useful.
But here I would prefer getting a MBP with at least a pro processor over the MBA.

 

[za9ra22]

For gaming it would make sense to have a fan cause in games every fps more might be useful.
But here I would prefer getting a MBP with at least a pro processor over the MBA.

I'd say that's real progress right there, because a few years ago you'd have got burned at the stake for even suggesting using a Mac of any kind for gaming!

 

[geta]

All it needs to let M1 run hot is running 2 games simultaneously or running one demanding game, well, mostly hot (71C according to sensors).
But that’s just me.

If gaming is your first priority, then MBA is the wrong device for your needs.

 

[Mike Boreham]

No fans mean the case can be sealed. A sealed case means no dust getting into the internals. No dust in the internals means one less point of failure.

I don't know whether it is actually sealed (feel it would need a vent?) but I once had a discussion with someone who claimed the MBP was better for dust because it had fans to blow the dust out. Out of curiosity I took the bottom off my 2 yr old M1 MBA and it was absolutely pristine. I know what MBPs look like inside after a bit of use.

 

[krspkbl]

I don't know whether it is actually sealed (feel it would need a vent?) but I once had a discussion with someone who claimed the MBP was better for dust because it had fans to blow the dust out. Out of curiosity I took the bottom off my 2 yr old M1 MBA and it was absolutely pristine. I know what MBPs look like inside after a bit of use.

air is passively cooled. dust can get in but it's only going to go in by external forces as there is nothing sucking dust in. i doubt a lot of dust would build up.

the mbp will do the same but because there is a fan(s) it will suck in and blow out some of the dust. so you could argue the MBP is better but you're going to need to deal with dust build up on the fan which could eventually affect it's cooling potential.

 

[Mike Boreham]

air is passively cooled. dust can get in but it's only going to go in by external forces as there is nothing sucking dust in. i doubt a lot of dust would build up.

It doesn't. As above, my M1 Air was like a new machine inside after two years.

the mbp will do the same but because there is a fan(s) it will suck in and blow out some of the dust. so you could argue the MBP is better

You are thinking like the person I had the debate with....yes of course the MBP will blow out more dust, because the MBA has no dust to blow out and no fan to blow it out with. If "quantity of dust blown out" is the criteria, MBP wins hands down. If internal cleanliness is the criteria MBA wins.

but you're going to need to deal with dust build up on the fan which could eventually affect it's cooling potential.

Not just the fan !

 

[krspkbl]

It doesn't. As above, my M1 Air was like a new machine inside after two years.


You are thinking like the person I had the debate with....yes of course the MBP will blow out more dust, because the MBA has no dust to blow out and no fan to blow it out with. If quantity of dust blown out is the criteria, MBP wins hands down. If Internal cleanliness is the criteria MBA wins.


Not just the fan !

as i said, i doubted it.

all i said was that the fan would blow some dust out. not that there would be more or less in either machine but you didn't include my entire post.

dust can affect other components too, yes, but as the fan is sucking dust in then most of the dust will build up there.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

I love my base M1 MBA. I just bought it at Walmart - $699 was too hard to resist! I use an XPS 13 for work. It's a pretty good laptop, but it gets HOT and it's LOUD! I love how quiet my MBA is.

I saw that at my Walmart as well and thought it was intelligent of Apple. It's a fair price and will attract a whole new set of customers that always thought Macs are overpriced.

Take my dad. Dude will complain about a mac being overpriced, and I look at what he buys and its a piece of junk from Wally World from $299. I know he will complain it is slow within weeks/months and buy another one in a year. I try to explain that if I pay $1.3k every 4 years, I am only spending $25 more a year to have a far superior experience....and better for the environment.

That guy could buy the $699 MBA and be saving money in 3 years.

 

[DeepSix]

What do the M3 13” Airs run at for temps? I read in a review that it can get up to 110C, seems rather hot?