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Traverse

macrumors 604
Mar 11, 2013
7,697
4,441
Here
This is going to come down to how fast this device REALLY is.

Irrespective of Apple's marketing speak, lets put an iPad Pro up against, say an Intel i5 CPU. A very very common medium range chips these days, which can run full desktop apps very well.
Photoshop, Autocad etc etc.

Would this then show just how slow the iPad Pro is?
Not slow for a tablet, but slow when up against a normal household PC or iMac?

Can't be THAT hard for someone to write the same/similar code to do various tasks under iOS and on a windows Machine so we can all get a idea of where we are in reality.

I'm sure we'd all love to know the truth.


The "speed" is irrelevant when they're based on different architectures. As fast ARM still can't compete with an equivalent Intel chip.

That's what I don't get about people begging for an ARM Mac. Just because geek bench scores are comparable doesn't meant you can just switch them out. Even if the software still ran, there is years of interl architects optimizations and hyper threading technology.
 

temna

macrumors 6502a
May 5, 2008
713
410
The thing is that the iPad Pro has the potential to blow all the PC tablets out of the water. It has the speed. It has the ram. It has the connection speeds between wifi and LTE. It just needs the apps. And I'm fairly sure that with the Pencil and the new keyboard, there has to be different development tools. I guess I see people thinking Windows or OSX apps when we talk about desktop apps. You can have full desktop apps on ARM. There are ARM implementations of Linux with full desktop apps. IT just takes a programmer sitting down with the new tools and deciding to do it.
 

Piggie

macrumors G3
Feb 23, 2010
9,128
4,033
The "speed" is irrelevant when they're based on different architectures. As fast ARM still can't compete with an equivalent Intel chip.

That's what I don't get about people begging for an ARM Mac. Just because geek bench scores are comparable doesn't meant you can just switch them out. Even if the software still ran, there is years of interl architects optimizations and hyper threading technology.

Indeed that's what I think.

Intel i5 photoshop = runs fine
Apple iPad Arm = would grind to a halt.

So why is anyone here even suggesting anything different?

Note: I'm not saying apps can't run quick if they are written specifically for the Arm, and perhaps are very cut down on the computer requirements needed to perform their operations.
 

Piggie

macrumors G3
Feb 23, 2010
9,128
4,033
The thing is that the iPad Pro has the potential to blow all the PC tablets out of the water. It has the speed. It has the ram. It has the connection speeds between wifi and LTE. It just needs the apps. And I'm fairly sure that with the Pencil and the new keyboard, there has to be different development tools. I guess I see people thinking Windows or OSX apps when we talk about desktop apps. You can have full desktop apps on ARM. There are ARM implementations of Linux with full desktop apps. IT just takes a programmer sitting down with the new tools and deciding to do it.

Errrr, you are saying an iPad Pro will blow a Intel i7 Based surface tablet out the water speed wise?
 
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sracer

macrumors G4
Apr 9, 2010
10,309
13,076
where hip is spoken
The thing is that the iPad Pro has the potential to blow all the PC tablets out of the water. It has the speed. It has the ram. It has the connection speeds between wifi and LTE. It just needs the apps. And I'm fairly sure that with the Pencil and the new keyboard, there has to be different development tools. I guess I see people thinking Windows or OSX apps when we talk about desktop apps. You can have full desktop apps on ARM. There are ARM implementations of Linux with full desktop apps. IT just takes a programmer sitting down with the new tools and deciding to do it.
The iPad Pro is not lacking in the apps, but in the hardware... in particular, support for accessories/peripherals. No support for generic USB devices and support for pointing devices (mice/trackpads) are the big two.
 

thewap

macrumors 6502a
Jun 19, 2012
555
1,360
So the ipad pro will run full desktop apps in the cloud thru some sort of emulation? Dont you need a desktop processor to run desktop applications. Just trying to understand

Thats what I am thinking the creative cloud direction is heading to - online desktop application emulation. All the subscribers would need is an apparatus to connect to the internet..albeit a pretty one.
 

EthanNixon

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2007
645
97
New Jersey
The A9x seems likely to compare well against an i5, but will probably have better graphics than the current intel on chip HD graphics. Pushing around 3 4k video streams suggests either a lot of cpu power or a lot of optimization. Unclear to me why anyone would want to video edit on a tablet--ergonomic disaster

The A9x is not comparable to an Intel i5, of any generation. The iGPU on the early i5s might be a little bit slower than the A9x, but CPU computation is a heck of a lot better in any i5 than the A9x.
 

rowspaxe

macrumors 68020
Jan 29, 2010
2,214
1,009
Indeed that's what I think.

Intel i5 photoshop = runs fine
Apple iPad Arm = would grind to a halt.

So why is anyone here even suggesting anything different?

Note: I'm not saying apps can't run quick if they are written specifically for the Arm, and perhaps are very cut down on the computer requirements needed to perform their operations.

Apple claims that the new A9X processor is not only desktop class, but also faster than a roughly equal priced Surface pro 3 with the i5-4300U. They are claiming it is 2x faster than the A8X and faster than 80% of portable PCs released in the past year.

https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/3k9vie/apple_claims_the_new_a9x_faster_than_an_intel/
 

Krevnik

macrumors 601
Sep 8, 2003
4,100
1,309
The thing is that the iPad Pro has the potential to blow all the PC tablets out of the water. It has the speed. It has the ram. It has the connection speeds between wifi and LTE. It just needs the apps. And I'm fairly sure that with the Pencil and the new keyboard, there has to be different development tools. I guess I see people thinking Windows or OSX apps when we talk about desktop apps. You can have full desktop apps on ARM. There are ARM implementations of Linux with full desktop apps. IT just takes a programmer sitting down with the new tools and deciding to do it.

So, I wonder about what "Desktop style apps" even means in this context myself. Are we talking about the mouse/keyboard UI? The more complete feature set that laptop/desktop versions of the apps have? The windowing system? Because iOS itself is a "desktop OS" with the windowing system (Window Server) replaced with Springboard. There isn't any magic in the code, really. The difference is in how you interact with the app, and what features you cut because it is work to reimplement a big, old, legacy app on a platform that doesn't have the same UI concepts.

The first and third are a real long shot. They undermine the key identity of the device, and add complications that benefit specific workflows that are laptop/desktop centric.

The second one is to me the more interesting one, as that can be done. There are still limitations with how you can enable certain workflows on a touch-only device, and there are a lot of features that spawn dialogs on the desktop today which seem to be a no-no on iOS. Extensibility is a hurdle once you've sandboxed the OS like iOS, since any extensibility basically has to be blessed by the OS. I'd argue that neither Apple nor Microsoft has really done a good job of demonstrating what a fully-featured app looks like on the tablet. Nobody seems terribly interested in cracking that nut right now, oddly. Apple has the biggest incentive, and they are about as disinterested as anybody.

The "speed" is irrelevant when they're based on different architectures. As fast ARM still can't compete with an equivalent Intel chip.

That's what I don't get about people begging for an ARM Mac. Just because geek bench scores are comparable doesn't meant you can just switch them out. Even if the software still ran, there is years of interl architects optimizations and hyper threading technology.

Except, at the end of the day, when you look at a geek bench score, you are looking at some snippet of code, running on the CPU in some amount of time. It is measuring real work, even if it isn't the exact same kind of work users actually do. The code to test something like "how fast can the CPU compress/encrypt this block of data" is likely identical for both CPUs. So if that test shows similar time, you are looking at similar CPU performance for that particular bit of code.

And honestly, HT tech is a bit of a trade-off. It helps in some situations (many threads, low CPU utilization), and hurts in others (high CPU utilization in apps that are properly parallel already). I really wouldn't call it something that lets Intel keep ahead of ARM. Where Intel beats the crap out of ARM is that it can just scale out to large TDPs and crush a CPU running at a fraction of the power draw through sheer force. But when the TDP is low, Intel's advantage evaporates.

It should also be pointed out that 32-bit ARM has been around since the 1980s. And compared favorably to Intel's 286 that was available, while also drawing less power. The main difference is that at some point, ARM stopped trying to compete with Intel directly, and stayed in the low-power space where Intel hasn't been a big player in until very recently. It isn't like Intel is the only one with decades of history and design work in their chip line. But when looking at the low-power regime, Intel is not the one with the track record in its favor.
 
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eyeseeyou

macrumors 68040
Feb 4, 2011
3,383
1,591
For designers or users of Adobe Illustrator iDraw is the closest thing you'll get to running Illustrator on your iPad.

Can open up both illustrator and photoshop files.

Good for concepts, designing, and maybe some light editing of existing illustrator files.

Definitely not fully featured enough for print production.
 

EthanNixon

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2007
645
97
New Jersey

Source for you claiming it is?

My source is common sense. There is no ARM chipset that is close to Intel's Core series. Why would you think otherwise, could you provide some insight to me? Where has anyone ever said the A9x is comparable to an Intel i5.

Apple sad it is "desktop class" performance. There are hundreds of desktop CPUs. I'm sure it has the computational performance of a modern Pentium processor though.
 

mattoligy

macrumors 6502
May 15, 2010
396
191
Cloud 9
I won't be able to load updates to my Escort Radar detector or my Garmin GPS. So no, it can't replace a laptop for me.

It's this exact kind of thing that is holding the iPad pro back! Even if one was to buy an Apple lightning to USB adapter, it's iOS that is limited in functionality... Although, manufacturers could develop apps that can update the firmware on their hardware via said USB adapter. If the iPad pro was to have included a USB port I think more apps would include this type of functionality...

Where has anyone ever said the A9x is comparable to an Intel i5. Apple sad it is "desktop class" performance. There are hundreds of desktop CPUs.

And you're saying the i series only makes up less than 20% of them?
 

EthanNixon

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2007
645
97
New Jersey
It's this exact kind of thing that is holding the iPad pro back! Even if one was to buy an Apple lightning to USB adapter, it's iOS that is limited in functionality... Although, manufacturers could develop apps that can update the firmware on their hardware via said USB adapter. If the iPad pro was to have included a USB port I think more apps would include this type of functionality...



And you're saying the i series only makes up less than 20% of them?

We don't know what Apple's definition of a "mobile PC" is. If it's a laptop, then there is no way the iPad Pro is faster than 80% shipped in the last year. If it is tablet PCs, yes I can agree with it. Most Windows tablets are powered by Intel Atom processors, and I cam see the A9x being marginally faster in computational tasks and exceptionally faster in GPU tasks.

However, I can guarantee it is no where near as fast as an Intel i5. Also, there won't be a benchmark that can properly compare them. There is a huge architecture difference, and an application that runs on ARM cannot stress an x86/x64 CPU the same. There are instruction sets that an Intel CPU can handle, while ARM CPUs can't even run them.

There is a reason the iPad Pro runs iOS and not OS X. I can give you a hint, it has nothing to do with the experience being "better" on iOS.
 

rowspaxe

macrumors 68020
Jan 29, 2010
2,214
1,009
We don't know what Apple's definition of a "mobile PC" is. If it's a laptop, then there is no way the iPad Pro is faster than 80% shipped in the last year. If it is tablet PCs, yes I can agree with it. Most Windows tablets are powered by Intel Atom processors, and I cam see the A9x being marginally faster in computational tasks and exceptionally faster in GPU tasks.

The "faster than 80%" claim seems abit dodgey--I'll agree
 

EthanNixon

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2007
645
97
New Jersey
My source for saying the A9x is likely at mobile i5 performance is the chip performing edits in realtime on 3 streams of 4k video. This would seem to suggest surface like i5 performance.

If Windows or Mac OS X had virtually no background tasks, an i5 could do a whole lot more than that. However, since an i5 is doing millions of processing in the background on desktop platforms, it will struggle to do that. Plus, Apple has the opportunity to code iMovie to take advantage of Metal, which will boost performance a lot.

The "faster than 80%" claim seems abit dodgey--I'll agree

I'd say Apple is considering a mobile PC less than a certain size. So if they say that anything less than a 12.9" is a mobile PC, I would agree with them. However, that is super vague.

We will only see the performance when the iPad Pro comes out. I initially dismissed it at first, but it is growing on me a bit.

Also, I'm sure an i5 can edit multiple 4K videos at the same time. However, I'm very certain when it comes to compiling the videos, the i5 would fair a bit better.
 

temna

macrumors 6502a
May 5, 2008
713
410
Source for you claiming it is?

My source is common sense. There is no ARM chipset that is close to Intel's Core series. Why would you think otherwise, could you provide some insight to me? Where has anyone ever said the A9x is comparable to an Intel i5.

Apple sad it is "desktop class" performance. There are hundreds of desktop CPUs. I'm sure it has the computational performance of a modern Pentium processor though.

Actually, I think that in native apps, the A9X might be faster than i5 native apps. If you compare them equally. Looking at Geekbench, which is one of those apps designed to be native, you can see how the A9X is as fast, and in some cases faster, than the i3/i5 processors. It all depends on the software guys.
 
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iSee

macrumors 68040
Oct 25, 2004
3,539
272
The "speed" is irrelevant when they're based on different architectures. As fast ARM still can't compete with an equivalent Intel chip.

That's what I don't get about people begging for an ARM Mac. Just because geek bench scores are comparable doesn't meant you can just switch them out. Even if the software still ran, there is years of interl architects optimizations and hyper threading technology.
Geek bench tests the overall processing power of the CPU and memory system. Geek bench scores reflect architecture optimization and hyper threading technology.

It can't tell you how well some specific piece of software is optimized for a particular platform, and generally won't tell you how well specific problems could be optimized for a platform based on the availability of specialized instructions.

But if the question is whether some ARM processor is generally a viable alternative for some Intel CPU, then, yes, it can answer that.
 
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