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OS X Deus Ex: Mankind Divided on Metal!
- Thread starter imacken
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I thought it was due to the failures of GPUs in the nvidia MBP. This caused a pretty big mainboard replacement program that was embarasssing to Apple. Rumor was that NVidia wouldn't pay for the replacement and Apple footed the bill. Apple probably was vexed and vowed to not use their GPUs again.
What failures, specifically? If you're referring to the 8600M, these mostly occurred in 2009 IIRC.
At any rate, nVidia and Apple aren't in a good relationship, at all. To the point that nVidia CEO used MacBook Pros to compare to the power of the latest GPU (which was meaningless). There's probably a good reason why nVidia proposes separate drivers. Apple may not want them in macOS. IMO, Apple have sided with AMD because it sees nVidia as a competitor (specifically in respect to its mobile GPUs). Granted, competition with Samsung did prevent Apple from using Samsung parts, but they probably didn't have a choice (and they are moving to TSMC).
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Vulkan never pretended to replace OpenCL (any more than OpenGL 4.3 with its compute shaders did), but apparently Apple wants Metal to be used everywhere.
I admit that Vuklan may not be that useful for pro apps after all, although I still believe it would have been more future proof to support Vulkan than porting some IOS framework to the Mac.
OpenCL support is more important to pros. What Apple did with OpenCL is inexcusable.
At any rate, nVidia and Apple aren't in a good relationship, at all. To the point that nVidia CEO used MacBook Pros to compare to the power of the latest GPU (which was meaningless). There's probably a good reason why nVidia proposes separate drivers. Apple may not want them in macOS. IMO, Apple have sided with AMD because it sees nVidia as a competitor (specifically in respect to its mobile GPUs). Granted, competition with Samsung did prevent Apple from using Samsung parts, but they probably didn't have a choice (and they are moving to TSMC).
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If even Apple itself doesn't use Metal in its pro apps, it's not a good sign. Metal may be a good replacement for OpenGL in games, but I've read from developers that it's not a good replacement for OpenCL. It cannot use the CPU and, most importantly, it is harder to use for no clear performance gains. There wasn't an issue with driver overhead in GPGPU.
Vulkan never pretended to replace OpenCL (any more than OpenGL 4.3 with its compute shaders did), but apparently Apple wants Metal to be used everywhere.
I admit that Vuklan may not be that useful for pro apps after all, although I still believe it would have been more future proof to support Vulkan than porting some IOS framework to the Mac.
OpenCL support is more important to pros. What Apple did with OpenCL is inexcusable.
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It would be a very dumb move if the new (and so-called modular) mac pro excluded one of the two gpu manufacturers, especially since now nvidia does not only offer the fastest gpus but also the most efficient ones. Laptops (and this includes imac, of course) is another story, but locking a workstation with a specific gpu vendor can never be a good idea, especially since apple - better late than never - admitted their mistakes with the current machine and apologized for it on every aspect.
Besides, what was the great benefit from AMD ? As the time passed, current mac pro proved to have gpu burn-out problems and drivers-wise crossfire never happened on macOS which is a failure on its own (considering that mac pro's crossfire works on windows side).
On the APIs side, however, I don't think there will be any changes on the foreseeable future . Apple has taken their decisions, and they will go Metal all the way, for better or worst.
Besides, what was the great benefit from AMD ? As the time passed, current mac pro proved to have gpu burn-out problems and drivers-wise crossfire never happened on macOS which is a failure on its own (considering that mac pro's crossfire works on windows side).
On the APIs side, however, I don't think there will be any changes on the foreseeable future . Apple has taken their decisions, and they will go Metal all the way, for better or worst.
And is there anything to report now? I mean you guys said it would release by the end of the year. and that was last year.
Nvidia sleeper too much time. AMD drivers are faster on macOS, eGPU support, Metal and OpenCL shine. Nvidia are super slow on mac side. Vega 56 and 64 can beat even1080 in OpenCL and some games. Radeon has returned to its glory.
There is a lot of activity on steamDB, and the Mac version of the game is a "qa_branch", so I guess they're testing for bugs on various configs.
It seems clearly you have not seen this page:
http://barefeats.com/index.html
Please make a proper research before posting anything.
Take it easy. The link you posted shows Vega 64 beating the GTX 1080 easily in OpenCL. I would not look at the geebench tests as they are meaningless when it comes to the GPU.
I'd be more curious to see how these GPUs compare on recent games, where driver optimisations make a bigger difference.
I'd be more curious to see how these GPUs compare on recent games, where driver optimisations make a bigger difference.
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I'm surprised that nvidia keeps releasing drivers for macOS at first place, since there is no nvidia gpu in any current mac, for a few years now. Regardless, openCL is irrelevant when talking about games, and nvidia has their own api to support rather than optimize openCL. nvidia supports egpu for a long time on PCs so this is not an issue either. AMD on the other hand has major issues with their power efficiency with their gpus.
However, the bottom line remains; A machine that will be called 'modular' and 'upgradeable' why should it be locked to one gpu manufacturer ?
Here is a example Metal benchmark running Total War: WARHAMMER where
http://barefeats.com/imac5K_metal.html
Unfortunately there is no Vega in this case.
There are OpenCL benchmark results where 1080 is slightly slower than Vega 64 while 1080Ti is the fastest from all or slightly slower:
http://barefeats.com/vega_resolve.html
http://barefeats.com/early_vega.html
... but comparing OpenCL capabilities of both competitors does not make any sense here as most games are using OpenGL or/and Metal API.
Saying that Nvidia is "superslow" without any proper evidence seems unfair and misleading.
It may be a case where Nvidia cards run slower but its because Classic Mac Pro PCI-e and Thunderblot connectors are not fast enough to match the lane speed of those cards.
Classic Mac Pro and eGPU owners use Nvidia products. How many such users are there nobody knows but it's cool that Nvidia keeps supporting them. I won't count Hackintosh users which might be a hight number but they don's use apple hardware.
Thanks for all your questions about Mankind Divided. In response, we now have some big news for this thread. 
We know you are hotly anticipating Deus Ex: Mankind Divided on macOS. So we are pleased to confirm that not only are we now in the final stages of development, but also that Deus Ex: Mankind Divided will be polished with Apple’s Metal 2 graphics technology.
Please be aware that despite our best efforts, we couldn’t get Mankind Divided to run well enough on Intel and Nvidia graphics cards. Therefore, the initial release will support AMD graphics cards only.
The game is coming to the Feral Store and Steam. Full system requirements and a release date will be revealed closer to launch.
We know you are hotly anticipating Deus Ex: Mankind Divided on macOS. So we are pleased to confirm that not only are we now in the final stages of development, but also that Deus Ex: Mankind Divided will be polished with Apple’s Metal 2 graphics technology.
Please be aware that despite our best efforts, we couldn’t get Mankind Divided to run well enough on Intel and Nvidia graphics cards. Therefore, the initial release will support AMD graphics cards only.
The game is coming to the Feral Store and Steam. Full system requirements and a release date will be revealed closer to launch.
Thanks for all your questions about Mankind Divided. In response, we now have some big news for this thread.
We know you are hotly anticipating Deus Ex: Mankind Divided on macOS. So we are pleased to confirm that not only are we now in the final stages of development, but also that Deus Ex: Mankind Divided will be polished with Apple’s Metal 2 graphics technology.
Please be aware that despite our best efforts, we couldn’t get Mankind Divided to run well enough on Intel and Nvidia graphics cards. Therefore, the initial release will support AMD graphics cards only.
The game is coming to the Feral Store and Steam. Full system requirements and a release date will be revealed closer to launch.
Ah, great news to hear that the game is finally coming to macOS! Sad to hear about the lack of support for Intel and Nvidia, though. I guess that I've been given yet another incentive to start saving for an eGPU upgrade for my late 2012 iMac. Maybe I could start a gofundme or kickstarter page to raise money for an Akitio Node Box and an 8GB RX 580?
Well, the most powerful nVidia GPU in a Mac is already quite old, so the absence of nVidia support is not surprising.
But according to reports I've read, Pascal cards run Hitman and other Metal AMD-only games fine.
Let's hope that Metal Deus-Ex is as well optimised as Hitman, which is almost as fast as the DX11 version.
But according to reports I've read, Pascal cards run Hitman and other Metal AMD-only games fine.
Let's hope that Metal Deus-Ex is as well optimised as Hitman, which is almost as fast as the DX11 version.
Well, the most powerful nVidia GPU in a Mac is already quite old, so the absence of nVidia support is not surprising.
But according to reports I've read, Pascal cards run Hitman and other Metal AMD-only games fine.
Let's hope that Metal Deus-Ex is as well optimised as Hitman, which is almost as fast as the DX11 version.
Hey, could you link up to the article or forum where you read about Pascal cards running AMD-only games? I'm guessing that limitation is only on macOS, not on Windows 10? I was thinking about how different game engines are optimized differently. The Dawn Engine seems to be the engine powering DEMD, whereas Square Enix built Hitman on its own Glacier 2 engine. On my late 2012 iMac on which I have installed and have been playing Windows 10 games via Bootcamp for about a year now, Doom 2016 gets a frame rate that can run from the mid-20's on outdoor maps with lots of enemies, to 60 fps on indoor maps with same. That is a lot of optimization for a game that I never expected to be enjoying in 2017. The Hitman demo in macOS won't start anymore after the last update (and only got about 10-15fps before that). If only these other engines could do as well in Windows (much less macOS).
There's a lot of room for improvement across oSs and across hardware.
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I cannot remember where I read reports of nVidia cards running Hitman or Mafia III. Yes, the restriction to AMD is specific to Mac versions.
The dawn engine is based on the Glacier engine. I measured that Hitman is 15% to 0% slower than the DX11 version on my 2017 iMac (depending on the screen resolution). What's you config?
The dawn engine is based on the Glacier engine. I measured that Hitman is 15% to 0% slower than the DX11 version on my 2017 iMac (depending on the screen resolution). What's you config?
Sure:
iMac (21.5-inch, Late 2012)
2.9 GHz Intel Core i5
8 GB 1600 MHz DDR3
NVIDIA GeForce GT 650M 512 MB
Thanks for all your questions about Mankind Divided. In response, we now have some big news for this thread.
We know you are hotly anticipating Deus Ex: Mankind Divided on macOS. So we are pleased to confirm that not only are we now in the final stages of development, but also that Deus Ex: Mankind Divided will be polished with Apple’s Metal 2 graphics technology.
Please be aware that despite our best efforts, we couldn’t get Mankind Divided to run well enough on Intel and Nvidia graphics cards. Therefore, the initial release will support AMD graphics cards only.
The game is coming to the Feral Store and Steam. Full system requirements and a release date will be revealed closer to launch.
The wait is over!
Wasn't worth it for me though – with AMD-support only I'll have to resort to Boot Camp anyway.
But hey – I can at least make it count as a macOS-purchase now.
And one can hope that maybe some day, Nvidia support will be added.
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Thanks for all your questions about Mankind Divided. In response, we now have some big news for this thread.
We know you are hotly anticipating Deus Ex: Mankind Divided on macOS. So we are pleased to confirm that not only are we now in the final stages of development, but also that Deus Ex: Mankind Divided will be polished with Apple’s Metal 2 graphics technology.
Please be aware that despite our best efforts, we couldn’t get Mankind Divided to run well enough on Intel and Nvidia graphics cards. Therefore, the initial release will support AMD graphics cards only.
The game is coming to the Feral Store and Steam. Full system requirements and a release date will be revealed closer to launch.
I have to wonder though... Is it a driver-related issue with Nvidia GPUs in general, or is it just that GTX 680MX and 780M (the most powerful Nvidia GPUs that Apple built into a Mac to date) aren't deemed powerful enough for official support?
Because while on the Windows side a GTX 660 is required, which 680MX and 780M do surpass, the Linux version requires a beefier GTX 680 (which is the same chip as 680MX or 780M, but clocked significantly higher and thus quite a bit more powerful), I think the latter might be the case. Can you confirm/deny @EllieFeral?
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Funny thing is, the Linux version is restricted to Nvidia.
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Thanks for all your questions about Mankind Divided. In response, we now have some big news for this thread.
We know you are hotly anticipating Deus Ex: Mankind Divided on macOS. So we are pleased to confirm that not only are we now in the final stages of development, but also that Deus Ex: Mankind Divided will be polished with Apple’s Metal 2 graphics technology.
Please be aware that despite our best efforts, we couldn’t get Mankind Divided to run well enough on Intel and Nvidia graphics cards. Therefore, the initial release will support AMD graphics cards only.
The game is coming to the Feral Store and Steam. Full system requirements and a release date will be revealed closer to launch.
Does this restriction apply to Maxwell and Pascal cards? I find it surprising that I wouldn't be able to play this game on my GTX 1080 Ti, which tends to be massive overkill for most games as I don't have a 4K monitor yet (still waiting for the ASUS PG27UQ). Have you been working with NVIDIA to resolve whatever issues you have? Is it strictly performance of the ancient Kepler-based GPUs in official Apple systems, or are there other problems that might affect a modern GPU as well?
Wasn't my experience as noted in another thread. On my late 2015 27" iMac with M395X, the macOS hitman was a resolution below the Windows version, i.e. I was getting the same performance in 1440p (Windows) as 1080p (Mac).Let's hope that Metal Deus-Ex is as well optimised as Hitman, which is almost as fast as the DX11 version.
The same is the case in F1 2017.
December 12 is the day. The requirements are… steep.