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engineerben

macrumors regular
Jul 2, 2010
140
79
Greenville Tx
And what exactly is a "full fledged laptop bottom"? Something additional to a keyboard which makes everyone say that this is a "pro" tablet? I don't get it. It's a keyboard.
I think Maflynn was talking about the Surface Book bottom, which contains a couple of USB ports, a display port connector, an SD card slot and a battery in addition to the GPU. The screen has the CPU and a battery.

Be interesting to see what a teardown reveals: it seems like an odd division of labor between the screen/CPU and the "full fledged laptop bottom."
 

sk1wbw

Suspended
May 28, 2011
3,483
1,010
Williamsburg, Virginia
I think Maflynn was talking about the Surface Book bottom, which contains a couple of USB ports, a display port connector, an SD card slot and a battery in addition to the GPU. The screen has the CPU and a battery.

Be interesting to see what a teardown reveals: it seems like an odd division of labor between the screen/CPU and the "full fledged laptop bottom."

As big as that tablet is, they couldn't fit the GPU inside of it like the iPad Pro? If Apple did that, this place would be at DEFCON 1.
 

MadeByApple

macrumors regular
Oct 8, 2015
162
149
The interesting question to me is this: now that Apple has a home-brew ARM processor that has the processing throughput of some well-regarded Intel cores, where do they go with IOS? The next couple of years are going to be a fun ride!

I totally agree. I am equally excited to see where Apple takes iOS over the next couple years.

There's a lot of posts on this forum saying Apple needs to merge iOS and OS X together, but I disagree. Like Apple, I believe each operating system is meant for two completely different usages - merging them would compromise the UX.

I think Apple will eventually build up iOS to more desktop level capabilities. The keyboard and pencil support is just the beginning. I also think the continuity built into ios/OS X is a glimpse into the future for Apple OS.
 

rowspaxe

macrumors 68020
Jan 29, 2010
2,214
1,009
As big as that tablet is, they couldn't fit the GPU inside of it like the iPad Pro? If Apple did that, this place would be at DEFCON 1.

The SB tablet has intel hd graphics--the base has, in certain models, a dedicated nvidia gpu. The ipad pro has similar integrated graphics, except designed by apple, of course.
 

rowspaxe

macrumors 68020
Jan 29, 2010
2,214
1,009
I totally agree. I am equally excited to see where Apple takes iOS over the next couple years.

There's a lot of posts on this forum saying Apple needs to merge iOS and OS X together, but I disagree. Like Apple, I believe each operating system is meant for two completely different usages - merging them would compromise the UX.

I think Apple will eventually build up iOS to more desktop level capabilities. The keyboard and pencil support is just the beginning. I also think the continuity built into ios/OS X is a glimpse into the future for Apple OS.

Its not all up to Apple. Ios might be enhanced, but its up to developers to decide whether or not to port desktop level applications to ios. Who will be the first to buy or subscribe to a full application in ios at full application prices? So you'll continue to see "lite" versions of applications in ios which will not satisfy many users. If you go to you tube you can find many videos of artists using surface with photoshop via touch--its not that big of deal, really
 

merkinmuffley

macrumors 6502a
Dec 3, 2010
615
582
No interest in the laptop that doesn't close. I do have interest in the SP4, I am a photographer and whatever I carry with me has to run Photoshop and the SP4 might do it in a lighter package than my MBP. I'm going to be looking at it, my only concern is the OS is very foreign, I've been using Apple products since 1984 and am very comfortable with OSX (not so much with IOS). I looked at a SP3 in one of those mall kiosks MS sells their stuff in, I had no idea how to get it to anything, it was very frustrating. IPad Pro is a waste of time for what I do - Photoshop is a must have. Apple really needs to get moving on Skylake integration, others have it.
 

engineerben

macrumors regular
Jul 2, 2010
140
79
Greenville Tx
Its not all up to Apple. Ios might be enhanced, but its up to developers to decide whether or not to port desktop level applications to ios. Who will be the first to buy or subscribe to a full application in ios at full application prices? So you'll continue to see "lite" versions of applications in ios which will not satisfy many users. If you go to you tube you can find many videos of artists using surface with photoshop via touch--its not that big of deal, really
You've packed a lot into five sentences - and there's quite a bit to think about there!

First, you're right on the money that it's not all up to Apple, but I was really thinking about where the IOS platform is destined to go, given the more capable CPUs that Apple is creating. I don't think there will be a merger of IOS and OS X although it's not beyond the realm of possibility that we'd see a Macbook with some kind of touch capability as a secondary interaction method somewhere along the line. Nevertheless, I think Apple is committed to a two-path strategy: improving and refining the desktop/laptop experience by evolving the iMac/Mac Pro/Macbook lines as technology permits, and on the other fork making IOS devices the best phone/tablet they can be. But if IOS isn't going to become more desktop-like, then what? That's what I'm curious about: how does the software and hardware IOS platform evolve, if not toward more desktop-centricity?

You raise a second issue, though, and I share your concern: can developers be sufficiently rewarded to create full-featured applications that can go head-to-head with their desktop counterparts? I think the outlook is frankly mixed here, for this reason: is there a market for a full-up version of (say) Photoshop on a tablet? Not "it would be nice" but "is there a critical mass of users ready to part with $500 for the privilege?" I suspect the answer is no, which means Windows portables (Surface Pro, certainly, and likely the Surface Book as well) will have a long and profitable run regardless of what Apple does with IOS.

Next question: Is there a market for a program that covers 80% of Photoshop use cases, runs on the iPad Pro, and sells for, say, $50? Certainly there's no interest from the professional who already lives in Photoshop, has invested in Creative Suite and has years of muscle memory built up. But for the serious amateur, the curious with disposable income and the professional willing to take a flyer on a new platform? Maybe.

I'm thinking that the next big move in IOS software won't come from Microsoft or Adobe porting cut-down apps from their portfolio to IOS. That's just the big guys trying to protect their turf. It'll come, in my opinion, from a surprising quarter: an Evernote, or a Fifty-Three, or an Omni Group, or from perhaps any of the other companies that have come of age in the IOS era. Or maybe from a completely unknown company - who knows?

But that does raise the question: without the "big apps," is the iPad Pro really "pro?" It's as 'pro' as you want it to be, I suppose, and one 'professional' may look at it and decide it's a toy, while the next 'professional' uses it to make amazing, wonderful content that thrills the client. Same thing can be said for the Surface: one 'professional' loves it and another loathes it.

But it's Apple's job to prove that the IPP is everything they say it is, which explains the videos of the 'demo day' at Disney. If they can make their case, then they'll sell a critical mass of the IPP and word of mouth will make it successful.

But I'll take a look at the Surface videos - it sounds interesting!
 
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shanson27

macrumors 68020
Nov 27, 2011
2,200
20,668
So which one is better, the iPad Pro, or the new Microsoft Surface Book ? What a terrible name ......
 

rowspaxe

macrumors 68020
Jan 29, 2010
2,214
1,009
But that does raise the question: without the "big apps," is the iPad Pro really "pro?" It's as 'pro' as you want it to be, I suppose, and one 'professional' may look at it and decide it's a toy, while the next 'professional' uses it to make amazing, wonderful content that thrills the client. Same thing can be said for the Surface: one 'professional' loves it and another loathes it.

I've written in favor of Surface here but I reject the idea that an ipad pro that doesn't run Adobe cc applications is a "toy". If the ipad pro and pencil provide a markedly better drawing experience, many "pros" might adopt as a sketch tool and choose to finish artwork in full applications. You really dont need photoshop to blueline artwork. Add in the ipp's light form factor and access to the app ecosystem --including "fun" apps like 53 paper"--and you have an attractive work space--although perhaps not for finaling

On the other hand--this is an example of using photoshop with surface (on you tube)
Photoshop demo Sketch 2 - yasidDESIGN
 
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Nebrie

macrumors 6502a
Jan 5, 2002
616
150
There is a certain danger to saying that the iPad Pro is a 'toy' because it can't run Photoshop because very few people actually have 'use Photoshop' as a job description. It's usually something like "Creative Director" or "Artist". It's a mistake to say that the tools define the job. Apple has a history of shipping products without 'xyz' followed by people screaming about "needing" xyz to do their jobs only for Apple to be proven right after a year or two when they stop screaming and keep buying because most of them have discovered that they don't actually need it to do their job or that alternative workflows have materialized.

How technology adoption works is that first you add the new tool to your existing workflow, then after time, you change your life to work around the tool. The iPhone is a good example. First, people bought it because it was an easy to use phone that replaced their existing phone with the bonus capability of being able to go on the web. Now our whole lives revolve around what the phone does for us.

The difference between the Surface and the iPad Pro is that the Surface allows people to do the same things that they've always done in somewhat-new ways while the iPad Pro encourages people to do new things in new ways. We're already seeing this bifurcation of the computing market take place.
 

Dave245

macrumors G3
Sep 15, 2013
9,763
8,007
I think a lot of people are missing a point, not everyone want's to combine their tablet and laptop (which results in the Surface) myself included. Their are certain tasks that i want to do on a laptop and their are other tasks that i want to do on a tablet. Personally i'm happy to own an iPad and a Mac. Yes i will be buying the iPad Pro with Apple Pencil, and yea maybe it will replace some of the tasks i do on my laptop, but i don't think a full blown OSX on tablet (like Microsoft's Surface) is the answer.

From review's that I've seen hybrids do not perfect anything, let's not forget that the Surface made a massive loss initially, it is only recently that Microsoft has started making profit on the device, maybe this is why Apple don't see a future in hybrids, whatever the reason i have to say personally that i agree with Apple not producing a hybrid and sticking to the iPad and Mac.
 

emembee

macrumors 6502
Oct 31, 2013
315
93
Surrey,UK
I think a lot of people are missing a point, not everyone want's to combine their tablet and laptop (which results in the Surface) myself included. Their are certain tasks that i want to do on a laptop and their are other tasks that i want to do on a tablet. Personally i'm happy to own an iPad and a Mac. Yes i will be buying the iPad Pro with Apple Pencil, and yea maybe it will replace some of the tasks i do on my laptop, but i don't think a full blown OSX on tablet (like Microsoft's Surface) is the answer.

The other issue is maintenance. Troubleshooting is a big issue on both Macs and PCs, they are insanely complex underneath all that candy. Today, my son's iPod stopped working but a simple reset was enough to get it up and running. Same issue yesterday with Word and Excel new versions on the iPad. On a Mac I would simply get annoyed and just junk them swearing never to use again. On iOs, I simply deleted the apps, then re downloaded and all ok.
I realise this is a simplistic comparison but it's still worth considering.
 

rowspaxe

macrumors 68020
Jan 29, 2010
2,214
1,009
There is a certain danger to saying that the iPad Pro is a 'toy' because it can't run Photoshop because very few people actually have 'use Photoshop' as a job description. It's usually something like "Creative Director" or "Artist". It's a mistake to say that the tools define the job. Apple has a history of shipping products without 'xyz' followed by people screaming about "needing" xyz to do their jobs only for Apple to be proven right after a year or two when they stop screaming and keep buying because most of them have discovered that they don't actually need it to do their job or that alternative workflows have materialized.

Of course--thats why no one uses office anymore? Of course not. The technology flow you describe has never happened in software.
 

engineerben

macrumors regular
Jul 2, 2010
140
79
Greenville Tx
I've written in favor of Surface here but I reject the idea that an ipad pro that doesn't run Adobe cc applications is a "toy". If the ipad pro and pencil provide a markedly better drawing experience, many "pros" might adopt as a sketch tool and choose to finish artwork in full applications. You really dont need photoshop to blueline artwork. Add in the ipp's light form factor and access to the app ecosystem --including "fun" apps like 53 paper"--and you have an attractive work space--although perhaps not for finaling

On the other hand--this is an example of using photoshop with surface (on you tube)
Photoshop demo Sketch 2 - yasidDESIGN
Had a look at that video, and a couple of other from Yasid. Fascinating to see the artist take the sketch from a blank page to a fully-rendered drawing in a beautiful time-lapse! Anyone interested to see what can be done on a Surface by someone with a whole lot of talent, check it out - it's pretty wonderful!

A few observations:

First, this person is a true artist! More than that, this person is an artist very familiar with the tools available - the various options, modes, brushes and more that are available within Photoshop. Forcing a different platform on this artist would be like amputating the dominant arm - a severe handicap.

Second, I notice that there is something like a mouse cursor that follows the action around. If I'm drawing directly on the screen, do I need that? Yes, the shape and characteristics of the cursor remind me of the mode I'm in, but if I'm trying to emulate the effect of drawing directly on a canvas, do I actually need that? When I draw on paper with a pencil, there's no artifact following my motions. I think that's a vestige of being designed first for a mouse.

Third, as good as the finished product clearly is, I've seen art of a similar quality created on iPads. A quick Google search for "iPad art" brought up lots of pages of art created on iPad using a variety of apps. Again, I think the talent is in the artist; the tool is secondary.

Finally, I tend to think of Photoshop as a tool for manipulating photographs as source material, not as a medium for original art creation. Obviously (as the video above amply illustrates) Photoshop can be used to create works of art, but I suspect if one were going to adopt a piece of software for creating illustrations, it might be something either more purpose-built or lighter-weight than full-up Photoshop.

In any event, the video illustrates what can be done with a Windows tablet equipped with Photoshop, even if the soundtrack does annoy after about the first five minutes. Thanks for the pointer!
 

engineerben

macrumors regular
Jul 2, 2010
140
79
Greenville Tx
I'll relate a story that illustrates why a secondary pointer (like a trackpad) may be a good idea...

A couple of nights ago my wife's Facebook account suffered what's come to be known as the "white screen of death". No matter what browser, on several computers, logging into her account via the web brought up a white browser screen and nothing else. Bummer.

So, in an inspired moment (rare, I know) I tried the Facebook app on her iPad. It worked! So I grabbed my Logitech keyboard/cover, paired it to her iPad and gave her the whole arrangement to use until Facebook got their act together.

Watching her browse her news feed was a revelation: she had to reach out with her finger and flick the screen up, and up, and up, then bring her arms down to type, then reach up and flick the screen...really unwieldy. And the revelation was this: a tablet computer docked with a keyboard isn't a tablet any more - it's a notebook. You need some mechanism to scroll from the horizontal surface and affect the display on the vertical surface.

Today, Apple unveiled the new iteration of the Magic Trackpad. I wonder if somewhere along the line they might allow it to pair with the iPad to provide that kind of "lean forward" experience?

And before anyone says it, yes, I know the Surface already does this...
 

t76turbo

macrumors 6502
Sep 20, 2012
299
706
I was 100% sure I was going to get the Ipad Pro. My Ipad 3 is barely used by my family but I could easily justify selling it and passing on my Ipad air to them and getting the Pro for myself. But seeing the lack of any real feature difference and it still using the same ole IOS, I will just keep what I have and am now strongly considering the surface pro 4. I do some tuning on cars and it would be amazing to be able to have a tablet that can do all the things my existing Windows Laptop can do.
 

nikster0029

macrumors 6502a
Jul 21, 2010
698
457
There is a certain danger to saying that the iPad Pro is a 'toy' because it can't run Photoshop because very few people actually have 'use Photoshop' as a job description. It's usually something like "Creative Director" or "Artist". It's a mistake to say that the tools define the job. Apple has a history of shipping products without 'xyz' followed by people screaming about "needing" xyz to do their jobs only for Apple to be proven right after a year or two when they stop screaming and keep buying because most of them have discovered that they don't actually need it to do their job or that alternative workflows have materialized.

How technology adoption works is that first you add the new tool to your existing workflow, then after time, you change your life to work around the tool. The iPhone is a good example. First, people bought it because it was an easy to use phone that replaced their existing phone with the bonus capability of being able to go on the web. Now our whole lives revolve around what the phone does for us.

The difference between the Surface and the iPad Pro is that the Surface allows people to do the same things that they've always done in somewhat-new ways while the iPad Pro encourages people to do new things in new ways. We're already seeing this bifurcation of the computing market take place.


most beautiful thing ever read
 

rowspaxe

macrumors 68020
Jan 29, 2010
2,214
1,009
Windows 10 is a huge advancement for Microsoft. But it is still not there. So I'll stick with my plan to rob a bank to pay for the iPad Pro..

I dont really understand why so many here see Windows 10 as being better than Windows 8.x. Its marginally better as a desktop os. Unless you think cortana is an amazing advance--i don't get it
 
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Krevnik

macrumors 601
Sep 8, 2003
4,100
1,309
I'm thinking that the next big move in IOS software won't come from Microsoft or Adobe porting cut-down apps from their portfolio to IOS. That's just the big guys trying to protect their turf. It'll come, in my opinion, from a surprising quarter: an Evernote, or a Fifty-Three, or an Omni Group, or from perhaps any of the other companies that have come of age in the IOS era. Or maybe from a completely unknown company - who knows?

And this is something I think is really worth considering. Devices like the Surface benefit from inertia on the part of big companies, by letting them do things in very incremental steps. Devices like the iPad don't get the benefit, but they benefit smaller, hungrier, more agile companies who are willing to fill gaps that the big players don't see the money in yet. Either one can be an evolutionary or disruptive product on its own, but the Surface evolves the Windows ecosystem, and the developer environment. The iPad with its own ecosytem (that is shared with the iPhone), disrupts the developer environment since you can't simply evolve your code to make it work there. Disruption always seems to favor the smaller players who aren't already entrenched.
 

Cape Dave

macrumors 68020
Nov 16, 2012
2,302
1,571
Northeast
You know, I have not seen anyone thread mention the obvious thing about the Surface Pro 4. And that is... It can be your MAIN computer! At least for most, with that docking station, it can power an existing monitor, large keyboard, etc etc! It can run any software in the usual fashion, ie with a MOUSE! The iPad Pro cannot do that. Boom! I for one think that is cool.
 
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AJsAWiz

macrumors 68040
Jun 28, 2007
3,262
347
Ohio
Not for a nano second. I see these two as two different devices. Plus I'm rather fond of Apple products, Mac OS and IOS. Wouldn't consider anything but.
I plan on ordering the iPad Pro when it goes on sale next month.
 

Renzatic

Suspended
Drawing is best done with the surface you are drawing on, flat on the desk - or at a slight angle, much like drafting tables provide. Drawing on a screen that is set at an angle, like that of a laptop, is impossible to do with any precision. If you're using the "kickstand" or another cover / case to hold the screen at an angle, it has to be strong enough to support the weight your wrist and pen strokes will put on it

You're right. Drawing on the screen at regular laptop angles would be annoying as hell.

That's why you can flip the screen around, fold it back down, and draw on it at a gentle angle like this...

SurfaceBook.png
 
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