Does the Surface Book have any one second thinking the iPad Pro?

[fieldsphotos]

If it has Wacom level of sensitivity/functionality then that is a different story, then I would have to re-evaluate it on that premise. I am not sure it has that though.


The dgpu will likely make it perform faster than the 13" and 15" igpu macbook pros (substantially so in the case of the 13") but it will lag in productivity against the 15" quad core and probably just match the 13" broadwell MBP. It is an improvement and I would agree that it should increase the price, but not by 800-1000$. The base price of that dgpu version is $100 short of the Xeon-based Mac Pro. That is excessive.


My rhetoric may be a bit overblown but my qualitative assessment of this product remains valid. I don't see why you wouldn't just go Surface Pro 4. To game?

I totally agree that the sensitivity of the stylus and digitizer is pretty critical. If it sucks it isn't worth it IMHO.

As far as needing the dGPU goes, Photoshop can benefit from GPU acceleration for several features such as liquify, smart sharpen, perspective warp, and some of the newer blur filters. When you are trying to apply a perspective warp to a 5 exposure HDR merged RAW file from a full frame 20 megapixel DSLR, you are gonna see some significant lag. I do a lot of HDR imagery as well as a lot of stitched panorama HDRs. Those tend to drag even my desktop PC to its knees when I am applying some of the more complicated filters to them.

I also do some video (mostly of the time-lapse sort) and that is also a laptop killer. I believe Premier can also benefit from GPU acceleration for rendering as well. I remember once trying to process some time-lapse videos on my MBA while I was traveling, and it was an overnight process. My poor MBA fired up its fan and chugged on those for numerous hours.

Admittedly it is a very expensive machine. But if that stylus is good it will be worth the extra cost over a dGPU macbook pro for me.

 

[fieldsphotos]

As an interesting aside I found this very good article comparing microsoft's N-trig digitizer technology to Wacom's.

http://www.ticktakashi.com/2014/05/wacom-vs-n-trig-modern-comparison.html?m=1

It seems like they each have pros and cons depending on your style. I wonder what Apple is using in the iPad Pro?

 

[Renzatic]

If it has Wacom level of sensitivity/functionality then that is a different story, then I would have to re-evaluate it on that premise. I am not sure it has that though.

The Pencil is probably a little closer to the Wacom, since it has the tilt functionality, which the Surface pen lacks. But otherwise, both are plenty sensitive, and lag free from what I hear.

The biggest advantage goes to the Surface for now though, since it has access to PS, Illustrator, and all that good stuff. The iPad Pro could end up with them eventually, but it doesn't have them yet.

 

[Renzatic]

It seems like they each have pros and cons depending on your style. I wonder what Apple is using in the iPad Pro?

They're using their own in-house tech. Apple would never use Wacom's tablet stuff, since it adds a good bit of thickness to the screen stack. That's also the major reason why MS dropped them for the SP3.

Though one update, the new SP4 pen has 1024 levels of pressure. Not sure what the Pencil has, but it's likely comparable.

 

[pat500000]

If MS makes SP tablet compatible with OS X....or ability to use it like Bluetooth with mac....that's A+++ right there.

 

[pat500000]

No interest in the laptop that doesn't close. I do have interest in the SP4, I am a photographer and whatever I carry with me has to run Photoshop and the SP4 might do it in a lighter package than my MBP. I'm going to be looking at it, my only concern is the OS is very foreign, I've been using Apple products since 1984 and am very comfortable with OSX (not so much with IOS). I looked at a SP3 in one of those mall kiosks MS sells their stuff in, I had no idea how to get it to anything, it was very frustrating. IPad Pro is a waste of time for what I do - Photoshop is a must have. Apple really needs to get moving on Skylake integration, others have it.

It maybe foreign to you...but just like any newcomers to mac...it takes time.

 

[Atomic Walrus]

As an interesting aside I found this very good article comparing microsoft's N-trig digitizer technology to Wacom's.

http://www.ticktakashi.com/2014/05/wacom-vs-n-trig-modern-comparison.html?m=1

It seems like they each have pros and cons depending on your style. I wonder what Apple is using in the iPad Pro?

I've read that before and generally don't agree. My experience was that the N-trig tech of the SP3 is vastly inferior due to its high minimum activation pressure and poor linearity at anything other than fast stroke speeds. The common advice given to reduce "wobble" (use more interpolation) isn't helpful because that introduces a lot more lag.

The early reports are saying that the pressure issue is resolved completely with SP4, and that the linearity is improved but not perfect. That would basically make it comparable to the Wacom "penabled" tech you see on many non-Wacom devices (SP1/2, Samsung Note devices). Cintiq-class digitizers have effectively perfect linearity, but are not sold to 3rd parties so you can only get that performance on a CC1/2.

They're using their own in-house tech. Apple would never use Wacom's tablet stuff, since it adds a good bit of thickness to the screen stack. That's also the major reason why MS dropped them for the SP3.

Though one update, the new SP4 pen has 1024 levels of pressure. Not sure what the Pencil has, but it's likely comparable.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to those pressure sensitivity stats in general. Seems strange that they're always powers of 2, right? These numbers only tell you how many bits are used to handle the values from the sensor, but it says nothing about the actual resolution of the sensor. It was MS's engineers who wanted to make this clear to everyone last year.

In the case of the SP4 they obviously did improve pressure sensor resolution and needed the extra bits (people who've gone hands-on confirm that pressure sensitivity is subjectively improved), but basically you can't really be sure that a "2048" system has finer pressure sensitivity resolution than a "512" unless you know more about the actual sensor hardware (or trust marketing stats).

 

[fieldsphotos]

No interest in the laptop that doesn't close. I do have interest in the SP4, I am a photographer and whatever I carry with me has to run Photoshop and the SP4 might do it in a lighter package than my MBP. I'm going to be looking at it, my only concern is the OS is very foreign, I've been using Apple products since 1984 and am very comfortable with OSX (not so much with IOS). I looked at a SP3 in one of those mall kiosks MS sells their stuff in, I had no idea how to get it to anything, it was very frustrating. IPad Pro is a waste of time for what I do - Photoshop is a must have. Apple really needs to get moving on Skylake integration, others have it.

Hah! This reminds me of my first Macbook Air purchase just a few years ago. I had been using Windows since the mid-90s and bought my first Macbook Air just a few years ago. It was SOOOOO frustrating! I couldn't find anything, couldn't figure out where files were stored, how to install programs, connect to network drives etc. The worst was what I called "disappearing windows" where an email I was writing would get hidden behind the main Mail program and I could not for the life of me figure out how to get it back to the front. All of my Windows tricks to bring a background page to the front didn't work at all. I got to the point where I would just start the email all over again if it did that until I finally found the menu option that let me bring the hidden window to the front. There were a lot of unfinished emails back there once I did find the option, LOL!

BUT it did get better over time and I can sort of get around OSX well enough now. So, I can feel your pain for switching to an entirely new OS ecosystem. It is daunting.

 

[fieldsphotos]

I've read that before and generally don't agree. My experience was that the N-trig tech of the SP3 is vastly inferior due to its high minimum activation pressure and poor linearity at anything other than fast stroke speeds. The common advice given to reduce "wobble" (use more interpolation) isn't helpful because that introduces a lot more lag.

The early reports are saying that the pressure issue is resolved completely with SP4, and that the linearity is improved but not perfect. That would basically make it comparable to the Wacom "penabled" tech you see on many non-Wacom devices (SP1/2, Samsung Note devices). Cintiq-class digitizers have effectively perfect linearity, but are not sold to 3rd parties so you can only get that performance on a CC1/2.



I wouldn't pay too much attention to those pressure sensitivity stats in general. Seems strange that they're always powers of 2, right? These numbers only tell you how many bits are used to handle the values from the sensor, but it says nothing about the actual resolution of the sensor. It was MS's engineers who wanted to make this clear to everyone last year.

In the case of the SP4 they obviously did improve pressure sensor resolution and needed the extra bits (people who've gone hands-on confirm that pressure sensitivity is subjectively improved), but basically you can't really be sure that a "2048" system has finer pressure sensitivity resolution than a "512" unless you know more about the actual sensor hardware (or trust marketing stats).

This is good stuff - I like getting feedback about the various digitizer technologies. It should be VERY interesting to see how the iPad Pro really compares once it gets out in the wild.

I haven't actually used an N-trig digitizer as of yet, so I am interested to see how well it works. I do own a Samsung S-pen tablet which is using a Wacom digitizer, and I do like the performance of that. I just wish I could get the Adobe apps on Android. The only other digitizer I own is an older Intuos 3 for my main PC.

So if the Surface is equivalent to an S-pen I will be very happy with its performance.

 

[Faelan]

Basically, the Surface Pro and iPad Pro are very different devices that happen to bear some resemblance and have "Pro" in the name.

Very true. One can argue that the iPad Pro is just a bigger iPad with more performance and a few extra features, but the same is true of the Surface 3 vs. the Surface Pro 3/4. The Surface 3 runs full Windows as well and even has a pen, but if you need to do more than simple media consumption and word processing on a frequent basis, you really want the more capable Surface Pro. They resemble each other in the sense that they're both fruits, but comparing the iPad to the Surface is like comparing apples to oranges. Both have their pros and cons, but because of the versatility of Windows and the large selection of high end professional software, the Surface Pro seems more professional when compared to the iPad Pro. Hopefully that will change, but it's going to take time. The iOS apps needed to close that gap won't appear overnight.

 

[sfwalter]

Now that the iPad Pro is just about here what iOS really needs "pro" level apps. I keep hearing that the iPad Air 2 and the iPad Pro have desktop class cpu's. However so far I haven't seen any desktop class apps for iOS.

I guess there's a couple rare exceptions such as Pixelmator.

 

[Dave245]

Now that the iPad Pro is just about here what iOS really needs "pro" level apps. I keep hearing that the iPad Air 2 and the iPad Pro have desktop class cpu's. However so far I haven't seen any desktop class apps for iOS.

I guess there's a couple rare exceptions such as Pixelmator.

The Adobe apps are looking good, maybe they are desktop class, who knows maybe Apple will have a iPad Pro section on the App Store where some exclusive apps will be available. So far the apps I've seen in videos on YouTube are looking very good, there mainly drawing ones tho.

 

[sjleworthy]

The Adobe apps are looking good, maybe they are desktop class, who knows maybe Apple will have a iPad Pro section on the App Store where some exclusive apps will be available. So far the apps I've seen in videos on YouTube are looking very good, there mainly drawing ones tho.

yes. i agree.

and i think as time develops, and especially if the Pro looks to be a hit (ie, viable and commercial) , we'll soon see more and more desktop level apps and actual desk top apps converted and released for it. why wouldn't there be if there's good money to be made? this will help not only the Pro but the ios take future direction too.

 

[sfwalter]

I still have the dream for when I go on my photography trips to backup all my photos (raw files) onto my iPad or an external hard drive connected to my iPad.

Right now the Surface can do this. However I don't want to use Windows.

 

[rowspaxe]

yes. i agree.

and i think as time develops, and especially if the Pro looks to be a hit (ie, viable and commercial) , we'll soon see more and more desktop level apps and actual desk top apps converted and released for it. why wouldn't there be if there's good money to be made? this will help not only the Pro but the ios take future direction too.

I doubt it--its a smaller market that supports lower price points. Adobe seems interested in porting lite and alternate versions of some its products to ios, but full scale apps seem less likely. Thought experiment--where does the extensive menus of photoshop live in an ios app?

However, either adobe sees potential in ios or is being paid/partnered by apple--or both.

 

[Renzatic]

I doubt it--its a smaller market that supports lower price points. Adobe seems interested in porting lite and alternate versions of some its products to ios, but full scale apps seem less likely. Thought experiment--where does the extensive menus of photoshop live in an ios app?

They'd have to reorganize some things, but if they can make Photoshop work well with a touch based interface on the Surface, they could do it on the iPad Pro.

 

[kdoug]

Just posted this in another thread. anandTech just finished testing one and it's impressive. I'll have to give windows another try.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/9727/the-microsoft-surface-pro-4-review-raising-the-bar

 

[akuma13]

The Verge review of the Surface Pro 4 pen did point out that there is still a slight lag when using the pen. I noticed it on the Surface Pro 3 a little bit but it wasn't a deal breaker. From the YouTube videos of the Apple Pencil I noticed no lag and the reviewers mentioned it too. I'm still leaning towards the IPad Pro especially for the eventual optimized apps.

 

[kdoug]

The Verge review of the Surface Pro 4 pen did point out that there is still a slight lag when using the pen. I noticed it on the Surface Pro 3 a little bit but it wasn't a deal breaker. From the YouTube videos of the Apple Pencil I noticed no lag and the reviewers mentioned it too. I'm still leaning towards the IPad Pro especially for the eventual optimized apps.

I just sold my iPad Air 2 and would've kept it had I not had to reset the memory constantly and the highlight text function worked. I'm going to give the SP4 a go until Apple comes out with something amazing down the road. The iPad Pro aint it though.

 

[rowspaxe]

They'd have to reorganize some things, but if they can make Photoshop work well with a touch based interface on the Surface, they could do it on the iPad Pro.

There is no "touch" photoshop for windows, however the default interface with some hot keys can be very touch useable

 

[Renzatic]

There is no "touch" photoshop for windows, however the default interface with some hot keys can be very touch useable

There is since Adobe went a'courtin the SP3 back when it first came out. PS and (especially) Illustrator have some pretty solid touch based interfaces these days with gesture controls, larger buttons, and all that good stuff.