EU Plans to Hit Apple With Antitrust Charges Over Apple Pay

[Unregistered 4U]

Yeah, no. The EU typically takes years to build up a case and bring charges, occasionally dropping heavy hints along the way but businesses rarely listen until it's too late and then play the victim.

Yeah, yeah. So, you’re saying that if customers in the EU weren’t buying iPhones, if they were ALL being sold in other countries, the EU would still be interested in regulating Apple’s NFC use? Totally makes sense. It has NOTHING to do with the fact that the iPhone is selling well in the region.

I guess I’ll Google for these “heavy hints” along the way that, I would wager, started to occur as iPhone sales continued to rise.

 

[laptech]

Apple pay works with various credit cards. What is the EU smoking. You don’t have to use the credit card of Apple to use it.

You've missed the point and more importantly, not understood the issue. The other 'payment systems' want to have access to the NFC chip outside of Apple pay. In doing so this would allow the other payment systems to make their own apps so customers and consumers could use their app instead of having to use Apple pay. The makers of other mobile phones allow Android OS to have access to the NFC chip in their phones, Apple does not allow anyone to have access to it's iphones NFC chip accept Apple.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

Without the iPhone, I think Facebook would have been the next MySpace and YouTube would have been an early Vine.

It does not take much brains to figure that one out. Social networks (Facebook, WhatsApp, Intagram) were indeed the iPhone killer apps. Next Audio and Video, Spotify (was streaming way before moved from selling digital copies to streaming) and Youtube. Of course Messaging, Safari & Email were key but these were self evident from start. Right after … games … lots of touchy games.

Anyone saying otherwise … oh well … some people actually have the opinion earth is flat.

PS: I remember one time Flickr was big … but got surpassed by Instagram … after being bought by Facebook of course.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

As was YouTube and Twitter. But they took off with the iPhone.

Without the iPhone, I think Facebook would have been the next MySpace and YouTube would have been an early Vine.

I still don’t think so. The iPhone was and is a smaller market than Android if you’re talking about mobile devices with capable browsers suitable for showing Facebook content. I guess at a stretch, one could say that if there was no iPhone there wouldn’t have been Android in it’s current state.

Otherwise, Apple’s played a significant but, ultimately, minority role in the spread of social media. The only one I think Apple devices would get credit for, at least for a short while, is Flickr. Because there was a time when the majority of pictures posted switched from cameras to iPhones.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

It does not take much brains to figure that one out. Social networks (Facebook, WhatsApp, Intagram) were indeed the iPhone killer apps. Next Audio and Video, Spotify (was streaming way before moved from selling digital copies to streaming) and Youtube. Of course Messaging, Safari & Email were key but these were self evident from start. Right after … games … lots of touchy games.

I could see that ONLY from the view of someone that’s likely based only in the US and are in Apple’s ecosystem. Take even a half step away from that, and there’s literally nothing you can do on Facebook with an iPhone that you can’t do on a whole range of often cheaper Android phones, and those Android phones outnumber iPhones by a pretty good margin worldwide.

Even in the US, Android still has a greater marketshare and there’s nothing that you’ll be able to do on Instagram, WhatsApp, Spotify, YouTube (and, for most of the time, Android had YouTube features the iPhone didn’t) that you can’t be done by millions and millions of Android users.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

I could see that ONLY from the view of someone that’s likely based only in the US and are in Apple’s ecosystem. Take even a half step away from that, and there’s literally nothing you can do on Facebook with an iPhone that you can’t do on a whole range of often cheaper Android phones, and those Android phones outnumber iPhones by a pretty good margin worldwide

Absolute nonsense. Social networking was key to the iPhone success world wide and vice versa. It is still leading the tech. Now you may argue the same for Android … but that does not invalidate such an assessment.

I’m an iPhone user from the time the iPhone 3G, when the iPhone was the tech leader in every category and remember battles being played between Flickr and Instagram, between Facebook and Twitter. In fact for some time Twitter was leading the pack.

All this thing of better cameras, cinema mode and face beautifying AIs and is for … TikTok and … next gen social networks.

Given how this can also be used for creativity as well for frivolous things such as vanity and entertainment, why do arrive to this conclusion?

Well, just have a look at the App Store financing structure. All this social network apps pay 0 to Apple … all for free for them. No IP to Apple, no infrastructure costs … zilch. Even though Apple must have, I mean this as a certain, dedicated infrastructure just to serve these apps to handle the load of new releases … That is what any engineer would do to load balance things.

While have the entire infrastructure is given form Free to the social networks, Apple is taxing whom? Well the creators and productivity apps. Remote teachers, training apps and so on. The guys that bet on non frivolous behaviors.

You say: “Hey, Google does the same”. Along the history we can clearly see a pattern. Google does whatever Apple does at the macro level. Apple takes a step, a few months later Google takes the same steps. Literally.

To end this on my part … I don’t see anything wrong with this, companies are built for profit. But you seam to be somewhat bothered with it … so here we go … a reality check.

Follow me on Instagram kekekek (@nunomoz)

Cheers.
PS: I which Apple built its own social network but also open to other platforms (Web). It would be interesting to see how Apple would deal with the problems these social networks are facing.Today‘s solution is not to build one, let other take the heat on the problems while feeding them with tech for free and $banking$ on them indirectly. Still would be interesting if they did it. There was once talk about Apple coming up with one in 2013 or so … IMHO they did well not to go for it and catch the fish in the “backend”.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Social networking was key to the iPhone success world wide and vice versa.

Social networking was key to the iPhone success, but, when more folks accessing social media are doing it from NON-APPLE platforms, you can’t say vice versa. Even TODAY, from here:

45 Facebook Statistics Marketers Need to Know in 2024

This list of Facebook statistics has all the data you need to craft a smart strategy and build reports, presentations, and more.

blog.hootsuite.com

11. Only 8.9% of Facebook’s audience is in the U.S.

Yes, we just told you the majority of Americans use Facebook: the network reaches 190,000,000 users in the United States.

But compare that to 310,000,000 users in India. The vast majority of Facebook’s audience lives outside of the United States.


and

17. 80.5% of mobile Facebook users access the app on Android

Only 14.3% use iOS. This is likely related to the small percentage of Facebook users who live in the United States.

So, as I was saying, if you’re IN the US and primarily use Apple products to access the web, you likely have a skewed view of Apple’s importance to social media.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

Social networking was key to the iPhone success, but, when more folks accessing social media are doing it from NON-APPLE platforms, you can’t say vice versa.

Well today, as ever, each participate with their market share of course.

To fully understand it you have to revert back to the history of the smarphone revolution. There was a time where the Facebook app was way more advanced in iOS than Android … Heck in Windows Phone was a joke …

With the growth of Facebook users and their growth speed, Facebook than improved the Facebook app on Android … took months of development to be on par with the iPhone. I remember Microsoft even building itself a Facebook app because Facebook was not that inclined.

Facebook Mobile User Counts Revealed: 192M Android, 147M iPhone, 48M iPad, 56M Messenger | TechCrunch

Facebook keeps user counts for its mobile apps hidden, but researcher Benedict Evans found a way to uncover them and they provide critical insight into the direction and performance of Facebook's mobile efforts. Most interestingly, Facebook's Android user count is growing much faster than its...

techcrunch.com

I remember those days. Maybe you don’t.

Apple was heading the smarphone revolution so much so that Samsung CEO called the iPhone a virus to design a strategy for its devices … The process was so powerful and fast that destroyed Nokia … caught off guard. With the smarphone revolution came the rise of social networks.

The iPhone was key to this.

So that talk of some businesses, fundamentally creators businesses, trying to abuse Apple IP by wanting everything for free … don’t really stand any ground. Apple is obviously entitled to be payed for their tech an IPs. But has it stands it’s definitely penalizing creators and creators tools in favor of subsidizing infrastructure for social networks. The money taxed to the first is being used to subsidize on dedicated servers to the second and still with huge profits. Apple, Google and Facebook go very well together. This is a fact.

While people may think there is some kind of competition between these companies, the fact is they hardly compete with each other. Instead … greatly feed on each other for free … helping each other business models. The rest is folk.

PS: Apple was pissed with Google by getting into the smartphone platform business … that is also a fact … it was simply for show. They seam to compete here but they do not at all given how each align their products … almost complementary in the market. Only Samsung is trying to take a bite in the high end from the get go. Apple never tried to get a bite in the medium to low end … never. It kept it self in the high end … The iPhone SE is simply not competitive with the other options on its price range.

Apple tech, even though discretely, in the back end, is right at the epicenter of the social network revolution. Offering their IP and infrastructure and market share to these for free while taxing creators (tools and work) on the App Store. This is a fact.

 

[I7guy]

[...]

Well, just have a look at the App Store financing structure. All this social network apps pay 0 to Apple … all for free for them. No IP to Apple, no infrastructure costs … zilch. Even though Apple must have, I mean this as a certain, dedicated infrastructure just to serve these apps to handle the load of new releases … That is what any engineer would do to load balance things.

While have the entire infrastructure is given form Free to the social networks, Apple is taxing whom? Well the creators and productivity apps. Remote teachers, training apps and so on. The guys that bet on non frivolous behaviors.

[...]

Correct. With facebook you are the product and that is why it costs $0 to open a facebook account. Since facebook gets its' revenue from your data, there is no fee associated with the app. Apple happily allows apps to not charge for download or IAP. It's t&c does not look at revenue or user base.

With a paid for app or IAP you become the product to the app and hence for certain apps the fees...the app gets it's revenue from your wallet.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

Correct. With facebook you are the product and that is why it costs $0 to open a facebook account. Since facebook gets its' revenue from your data, there is no fee associated with the app. Apple happily allows apps to not charge for download or IAP. It's t&c does not look at revenue or user base.

I know I am Correct.

But as a side note: In the App Store you also are the product. Devs share revenue with Apple to access you even with restrictions. It’s the iPhone and its users that support the existence of the App Store, not the other way around. On the other hand there is also Ads (payed and free) which are in this realm “suggestions”.

I guess for Apple the exception within their ecosystem is if you are already a product of a social network …

Apple is quite happy with this arrangement. Apple markets your data, case in case the use of your credit card in app but not only, except if you are being marketed by someone else already. They do the exception for data, it’s just a matter of doing the same for apps and digital services … I guess not.

Someone being a product to sell access to or target and privacy are different things. Privacy depends on how thing is done.

PS: The App Store does not have to compete for users … like usually stores / shops have. That is the job of the iPhone … case in case the reason of the iPhone Conference and not the App Store conference. In the last sales pitch the App Store wasn’t even mentioned once simply because it’s irrelevant in getting its customers.

 

[I7guy]

I know I am Correct.

100%. With facebook you are the product. Your data goes everywhere, and your data drives advertising. Apple uses your data, not to deliver advertising, but suggestions to the ecosystem. There might be some instances you allow apple to share your data with 3rd parties.

But as a side note: In the App Store you also are the product. Devs share revenue with Apple to access you even with restrictions. It’s the iPhone and its users that support the existence of the App Store, not the other way around. On the other hand there is also Ads (payed and free) which are in this realm “suggestions”.

There is no side note. The app collects revenue from you, your money is the product, while you are the purchaser. In 2021, there is no differentiation between what's an iphone and what's an app store? The app store is a marketplace. As far as "suggestions", I'm good with apps as suggestions, I'm not worried that I will receive ads for vaginal cremes.

I guess for Apple the exception within their ecosystem is if you are already a product of a social network …

Sure, from safari I can logon to facebook by: www.face.... now what were you saying?

Apple is quite happy with this arrangement. They market you except if you are being marketed by someone else already.

No they don't, especially if one doesn't use the app. And if your contention is there is some nefarious arrangement because as a user the app developer and apple both know you downloaded an app...that's the way she goes. Which is why I use: www.face.....

PS: The App Store does not have to compete for users … like usually stores / shops have. That is the job of the iPhone … case in case the reason of the iPhone Conference and not the App Store conference. In the last sales pitch the App Store wasn’t even mentioned once simply because it’s irrelevant to the conversion.

The app store is just one thing in a laundry list of considerations of whether or not to purchase an iphone. Whether or not that is your belief or not.....

 

[Nuno Lopes]

The app store is just one thing in a laundry list of considerations …

Exactly. Right there at the bottom along with Apple Pay yet you do become a product to be sold access to.

PS: Yes, there is a backdoor to this called Safari, yet it does not work to avoid Apple Pay. Safari works as well for Facebook by the way.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

No they don't, especially if one doesn't use the app.

Hehehe, you are stumbling now. Of course your not an App Store product to be sold access to if you don’t need to use it. Otherwise you are. But why would one buy an iPhone if not to use apps in which case one needs to use it? Its one of those nature mysteries.

Apple can do whatever they want. If they are so concerned about its user being products of social networks maybe they should bite the bull and demand it to be accessed through the browser and remove them from the App Store. Technically there is no reason why Stadia and xCloud are required to do so otherwise share the the revenue and the curation process while Instagram, Facebook, WhatApp, Twitter and all not.

No. I’m not saying that there is a formal arrangement. But that the relationship seams to be symbiotic hence the reason why Apple supplies their infrastructure for free to social networks and not to creators and creators tool builders … less frivolous applications of the iPhone.

 

[I7guy]

Hehehe, you are stumbling now.

You're the one that stubbed your big toe.

Of course your not an App Store product to be sold access to if you don’t need to use it. Otherwise you are. But why would one buy an iPhone if not to use apps in which case one needs to use it? Its one of those nature mysteries.

Well I like the iphone better. While I believe (and maybe many more believe as well) many "equivalent" apps are "better" on ios, I have come to like ios better than android. There really is less and less incentive for apps as native HTML5, javascript etc provides many of the functionalities. But that is one thing to consider, the app developer may not know your name, but it does know some things about you.

Apple can do whatever they want. If they are so concerned about its user being products of social networks maybe they should bite the bull and demand it to be accessed through the browser and remove them from the App Store.

Being concerned doesn't necessarily imply that draconian measures should follow.

Technically there is no reason why Stadia and xCloud are required to do so otherwise share the the revenue and the curation process while Instagram, Facebook, WhatApp, Twitter and all not.

Okay, not clear on the point.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

Well I like the iphone…

Precisely. But what is under scrutiny is not the iPhone but Apple Pay and the App Store and it’s ties to the iPhone. As you notes the laundry list is long so this aren’t really opted in by users per si … it just goes with the flow … sales pitch in the latest conference … 120hz, super CPU, cinema mode, Grammy revelations … so on and so forth. Some might consider that an abusive a tactic to compete and pressure banks (payment) and digital services in general.

 

[I7guy]

Precisely. But what is under scrutiny is not the iPhone but Apple Pay and the App Store and it’s ties to the iPhone. As you notes the laundry list is long.

Again, I'm not in favor of governmental micro regulation of business practices at this level. So telling any company how to use it's NFC chip is gross-overreach in my opinion. But we will see.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Since Apple wouldn’t even exist as a company if it weren’t for the Apple I, it can be said that the Apple I is really the origin of social media. See, as long as “a thing came before” is the story that’s being told, one can ignore wide swaths of tech to build any conclusion one likes.

If only the Apple I had happened earlier leading to the iPhone happening earlier, MySpace would still be around! MySpace didn’t fail because of rising competition, a poor and inconsistent product, heavy spending, as well as ongoing legal battles. They failed because iPHONE!

And, if that’s a person’s opinion, (perhaps based on a strong belief that Apple is the center of the computing universe given that they’ve primarily only used Apple products for years) they’re free to hold it and I am not in a position to change anyone’s mind on that point.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

Again, I'm not in favor of governmental micro regulation of business practices at this level. So telling any company how to use it's NFC chip is gross-overreach in my opinion. But we will see.

It’s not about telling Apple how to use its NFC tech, but how it is using its business across the board to press on multiple markets, case in case banking and financial services.

In the Anti Trust scene there is a thing called Tying that is frowned upon for very good reason: “Tying” can occur when a seller who has market power over one product (the “tying product”) will only sell that product to buyers who agree to also buy a different product from the seller (the “tied product”) so that the buyers are effectively coerced to purchase that tied product from the seller rather than from any competitor.

tying arrangement

www.law.cornell.edu

Want to use Cinematic Mode, what was pitched in the last conference? Ok but you also need to buy into Apple Pay for contactless payment when using the phone. One bares no practical or technical relationship with the other. Get the picture? This is how Apple is competing with the digital payment market … and now is entering the space of financing.

”Where a tying arrangement is unlawful, it may be illegal per se or illegal under the rule of reason. The requirements for a per se violation are: the forced purchase of one commodity in order to obtain a separate desired commodity or service; possession by the seller of sufficient economic power with respect to the tying product to restrain free trade in the market for the tied product; and that the arrangement affects a not insubstantial amount of commerce in the market for the tied product. If the requirements for a per se violation are not met, a tying arrangement may be illegal under the rule of reason if: it results in an unreasonable restraint on trade in the relevant market under § 1 of the Sherman Act; or its probable effect is a substantial lessening of competition in the relevant market under § 3 of the Clayton Act.”

”Tying” is all over the place in the iPhone and iPad. The question is all of it legal or not? That is under scrutiny, being analyzed by regulators across the globe. From the US to South Korea, EU, Australia, UK, Italy and other countries.

Now keeping with the mantra that companies can do whatever, you may be of the opinion that “Tying” should be always legal, voting through wallet etc etc. But that is not what the law says. Some are ok, others are abusive to the point of being illegal.

Will see indeed.

Cheers.

 

[I7guy]

It’s not about telling Apple how to use its NFC tech, but how it is using its business across the board to press on multiple markets, case in case banking and financial services.

In the Anti Trust scene there is a thing called Tying that is frowned upon for very good reason: “Tying” can occur when a seller who has market power over one product (the “tying product”) will only sell that product to buyers who agree to also buy a different product from the seller (the “tied product”) so that the buyers are effectively coerced to purchase that tied product from the seller rather than from any competitor.

What to use Cinematic Mode? Ok but you also need to use Apple Pay for contactless payment. One bares no practical relationship with the other. Get the picture?

Laws can also be rendered inapplicable for certain applications. As shown in the US trial that many expected apple to be smoked.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

As shown in the US trial that many expected apple to be smoked.

I think I’ve written to you in our exchange that I did not expected that at all. In the end the result was what I’ve expected considering the contender arguments. Basically the judge ruled Apple to allow third party payment processing options in app (link to external systems) and Apple to change its policies regarding dev communication with its users, a freer form of communication. Much as South Korea ruled.

What I think is funny is that when the news came out regarding South Korea regulatory decision some in this forum considered nonsense … foreign interference, foreign “attack” on an American company. Maybe when the US regulatory board reach to the same conclusion as the EU, some judge will than rule the same way and EU will not be accused of ”attacking” American companies by some around here? Who knows. Again … Apple will not be smoked if EU requires Apple not to Tie Apple Pay with everything else on the iPhone and instead allow third parties to use the phone features, such as NFC capabilities, for the purpose … much like others smartphone vendors do. Hence have Apple Pay compete with other payment system in the iPhone altogether.

None of this smokes Apple from profits, that is not the objective of regulators either, profit is good … I’ve written about that also. But it does forces the company to change its practice and adopt less anti-competitive practices if that is the case found.

 

[weckart]

Yeah, yeah. So, you’re saying that if customers in the EU weren’t buying iPhones, if they were ALL being sold in other countries, the EU would still be interested in regulating Apple’s NFC use? Totally makes sense. It has NOTHING to do with the fact that the iPhone is selling well in the region.

I guess I’ll Google for these “heavy hints” along the way that, I would wager, started to occur as iPhone sales continued to rise.

Nope. This is your strawman that you built all by yourself. Congrats, I suppose.

Of course, government should regulate a companies business model. /s

That should be a vote with your dollars not legislate a business model. While I don't know what Apple do, the EU tech community will get what it deserves, which is no innovation. (imo)

Did you really write that, read it and then STILL decide to click on Post reply?

Governments don't micromanage businesses unless they are left with wreckages to salvage at the taxpayer's expense. Governments pass laws and regulations - including those pertaining to commerce and trade. They even have ministries dedicated to ensure the smooth, safe and fair running of trade. Why is this news to you?

If a business decides that its "model" is to play fast and loose with those, then it is going to get beaten up pretty badly. Apparently, this also comes as a complete shock to you.

 

[I7guy]

Nope. This is your strawman that you built all by yourself. Congrats, I suppose.

Did you really write that, read it and then STILL decide to click on Post reply?

Do you really not see how bad this is and ultimately where this will go? Or is there some hidden lala land that people belong to where people want Apple to turn into Android?

Governments don't micromanage businesses unless they are left with wreckages to salvage at the taxpayer's expense.

Exactly what Apple Pay wreckage is there?

Governments pass laws and regulations - including those pertaining to commerce and trade. They even have ministries dedicated to ensure the smooth, safe and fair running of trade. Why is this news to you?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Governments can do what they want. We know that.

If a business decides that its "model" is to play fast and loose with those, then it is going to get beaten up pretty badly. Apparently, this also comes as a complete shock to you.

Apparently you are not aware the biggest (US) government bust up of AT&T, really was the litmus test of how a government can screw things up. Government is perfectly capable of screwing things up.

 

[weckart]

Do you really not see how bad this is and ultimately where this will go? Or is there some hidden lala land that people belong to where people want Apple to turn into Android?

Exactly what Apple Pay wreckage is there?

a) I can see how bad it is for Apple that it actually has to follow the laws of the land. How dreadful. Thoughts and prayers.

b) Did I say that Apple had gone bust? Why even raise a point I never made?

 

[I7guy]

a) I can see how bad it is for Apple that it actually has to follow the laws of the land. How dreadful. Thoughts and prayers.

b) Did I say that Apple had gone bust? Why even raise a point I never made?

What’s laws of the land? The government dictates the hardware use?

 

[Nuno Lopes]

Apparently you are not aware the biggest (US) government bust up of AT&T, really was the litmus test of how a government can screw things up. Government is perfectly capable of screwing things up.

Oh dear that one again. How many market crashes after that. I mean, The market can be run by a bunch of crooks and corrupts at one time and lead people to misery and some to new highs … its all part of the game … state money to the rescue … the state makes a not so good decision it’s a sin that hunts the org for ever. Geee

Hehehe.

How bad it can get? To whom? I mean, regulation is working as it ever worked across all industries. There is no special process going on because it’s Apple, or because it’s big tech.