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BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
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Lol coding isn’t speech any more than being forced to have the FCC logo or CE to be allowed to sell it or any other of the Millions of safety regulations that exist.
But apple is more told to stop providing code harming the broader market
Software code was ruled to be protected by the first amendment in the US in the 90s in a case argued by the EFF.

There's nothing unreasonable about considering it speech.

That’s your opinion, and not factual considering in Netflix and appleTV both refuse to provide you the ability to purchase a subscription in order to not have to pay 30% to the play store.
You can purchase both Netflix and Apple TV+ subscriptions without paying 30% to the Play Store.

It’s not about a company taking power from another company. It’s about EU removing power from bigger companies and giving it to smaller ones.
I think it's naive to consider that there is a significant difference between this quote and what I said. Lobbying works.

Secondly EU doesn’t collect taxes.
I never said it did. But it certainly benefits Europe to keep more tax dollars in Europe.

You obviously don’t know how messaging works or what the bill is saying about this.

Hint zero content to kill encryption
Interoperability requirements themselves will harm encryption. Sharing the keys between networks necessarily adds complications and points of failure. It will also add opportunities for spam and abuse since identities will no longer be verifiable.
 
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Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68020
May 2, 2021
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Software code was ruled to be protected by the first amendment in the US in the 90s in a case argued by the EFF.

There's nothing unreasonable about considering it speech.
It’s extraordinary unreasonable. Perhaps why EU doesn’t recognize it.
You can purchase both Netflix and Apple TV+ subscriptions without paying 30% to the Play Store.
Untill very recently you could purchase it directly in the app. Untill apple become as greedy as everyone else.
I think it's naive to consider that there is a significant difference between this quote and what I said. Lobbying works.
It isn’t. In EU elected politicians aren’t the ones who make legislation. And we have 27 nations competing adversarially. Just because someone is lobbying doesn’t mean other unrelated groups will benefit. We have had the same thing with the biggest car manufacturers and they got suplexed by EU, including domestic companies such as Volvo or BMW
I never said it did. But it certainly benefits Europe to keep more tax dollars in Europe.
That’s why they pushed for a global minimum tax to prevent US companies exploiting tax loopholes.
Interoperability requirements themselves will harm encryption. Sharing the keys between networks necessarily adds complications and points of failure. It will also add opportunities for spam and abuse since identities will no longer be verifiable.
We have hundreds of solutions that already exist to solve all these problems. And I again recommend you actually read the bill of what it actually demand.
 
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BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
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It’s extraordinary unreasonable. Perhaps why EU doesn’t recognize it.
The EU doesn't recognize it because the first amendment doesn't apply to the EU.

Untill very recently you could purchase it directly in the app. Untill apple become as greedy as everyone else.
Which has nothing to do with what I said.

It isn’t. In EU elected politicians aren’t the ones who make legislation. And we have 27 nations competing adversarially. Just because someone is lobbying doesn’t mean other unrelated groups will benefit. We have had the same thing with the biggest car manufacturers and they got suplexed by EU, including domestic companies such as Volvo or BMW
Ahh. You were referring to the fantasy EU where business interest are not represented in legislation.

That’s why they pushed for a global minimum tax to prevent US companies exploiting tax loopholes.
So, now you agree that they have an interest in keeping tax dollars in Europe.. And, of course, US companies aren't the only ones that use tax loopholes.

We have hundreds of solutions that already exist to solve all these problems.
No, we don't.
 

Sophisticatednut

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The EU doesn't recognize it because the first amendment doesn't apply to the EU.
I’m talking about the concept. Not that American laws not being recognized.
Ahh. You were referring to the fantasy EU where business interest are not represented in legislation.
There’s a difference between one business interest being represented in legislation and multiple ones being recognized and broadened. You are just annoyed that apple is negatively affected and a billion dollar company like epic is positively affected. Missing the important part that millions of smaller businesses are also positively affected.
So, now you agree that they have an interest in keeping tax dollars in Europe.. And, of course, US companies aren't the only ones that use tax loopholes.
Universal minimum tax is separate from these bills having zero relevance.
No, we don't.
Yes we do, same way we have hundreds of propitiatory solutions between every bank in Europe and different cards and payment systems. We have managed to use different protocols maximizing user privacy and security and still have interoperability on basic levels.

Same thing exist on the messaging platform that is hundreds of times less vulnerable and millions of times less complicated.

There exist thousands of secure communication protocols and implementations that can be used for interoperability without removing what makes iMessage or WhatsApp uneque to their platform
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,775
10,900
I’m talking about the concept. Not that American laws not being recognized.
Okay. That just leaves you making an unsupported assertion.

There’s a difference between one business interest being represented in legislation and multiple ones being recognized and broadened. You are just annoyed that apple is negatively affected and a billion dollar company like epic is positively affected. Missing the important part that millions of smaller businesses are also positively affected.
Disagreeing with legislation doesn't make me annoyed. Leave the personal stuff out of the conversation.

I claimed lobbying works. You claimed it doesn't in the EU. I stand by my statement.

Universal minimum tax is separate from these bills having zero relevance.
You brought it up. I just said that the EU has an interest in more tax dollars staying in Europe. You laughably claimed that it doesn't because the EU doesn't collect taxes. Then you reversed yourself and said that it does using the example of the Universal minimum tax.

Yes we do, same way we have hundreds of propitiatory solutions between every bank in Europe and different cards and payment systems. We have managed to use different protocols maximizing user privacy and security and still have interoperability on basic levels.

Same thing exist on the messaging platform that is hundreds of times less vulnerable and millions of times less complicated.

There exist thousands of secure communication protocols and implementations that can be used for interoperability without removing what makes iMessage or WhatsApp uneque to their platform
Your examples don't support your argument since transactions are generally decrypted before being moved between providers and institutions.
 

Sophisticatednut

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Okay. That just leaves you making an unsupported assertion.
USA have first amendment. Eu doesn’t and have multiple case laws asserting different.
I claimed lobbying works. You claimed it doesn't in the EU. I stand by my statement.
I think we have simply misunderstood each other. I didn’t claim lobbying doesn’t work. Just that this case isn’t lobbying case.
You brought it up. I just said that the EU has an interest in more tax dollars staying in Europe. You laughably claimed that it doesn't because the EU doesn't collect taxes. Then you reversed yourself and said that it does using the example of the Universal minimum tax.
EU collectively have pushed for this. EU still doesn’t collect the tax, just provide a legal agreement between EU members
Your examples don't support your argument since transactions are generally decrypted before being moved between providers and institutions.
Oh god I hope you’re messing with me. If you mean screen scraping, that’s been illegal for a while for banks to use. And I hope USA have banned it as well.

Transactions are never decrypted before transfer between providers and institutions. I recommend you look up open banking initiative, PSD2 and the NextGenPSD2 banking regulations.


 
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BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,775
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USA have first amendment. Eu doesn’t and have multiple case laws asserting different.
Again, an unsupported assertion that would vary by country.

I think we have simply misunderstood each other. I didn’t claim lobbying doesn’t work. Just that this case isn’t lobbying case.
Sure. But you just made that up without evidence.

EU collectively have pushed for this. EU still doesn’t collect the tax, just provide a legal agreement between EU members
No one is arguing otherwise.

Oh god I hope you’re messing with me. If you mean screen scraping, that’s been illegal for a while for banks to use. And I hope USA have banned it as well.

Transactions are never decrypted before transfer between providers and institutions. I recommend you look up open banking initiative, PSD2 and the NextGenPSD2 banking regulations.


Again, you're just posting unrelated facts that have nothing to do with e2e encryption across unrelated providers.
 

deevey

macrumors 65816
Dec 4, 2004
1,342
1,412
While there are many good ideas, like being able to cancel a subscription easier (I once subscribed to the NYT and had to call them from Germany to cancel the subscription - never again!), I’m really interested how on earth the message interoperability should work. I use Signal and iMessage. How can Signal still be secure and end to end encrypted if it has to be able to work with WhatsApp?
Gatekeepers (Apple) will need to allow it. But would the likes of WhatsApp really want to implement it? It's in their best interest to keep their message community completely separate and force people to download it in order to talk to other whatsapp users.
 

RadioHedgeFund

Cancelled
Sep 11, 2018
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m.x said:
While there are many good ideas, like being able to cancel a subscription easier (I once subscribed to the NYT and had to call them from Germany to cancel the subscription - never again!), I’m really interested how on earth the message interoperability should work. I use Signal and iMessage. How can Signal still be secure and end to end encrypted if it has to be able to work with WhatsApp?

Gatekeepers (Apple) will need to allow it. But would the likes of WhatsApp really want to implement it? It's in their best interest to keep their message community completely separate and force people to download it in order to talk to other whatsapp users.

Its not about interoperability but rather the adopting of an open standard that any app can subsequently have access to, like how email works. We have this in RCS, it just needs Apple to openly admit iMessage is a terrible failure and adopt it as their messaging standard.

If anything Apple's adoption of RCS and the subsequent 100% interoperability of it with Android's default messaging app would likely kill off every 3rd party messaging app.
 

dk001

macrumors demi-god
Oct 3, 2014
10,601
14,942
Sage, Lightning, and Mountains
Its not about interoperability but rather the adopting of an open standard that any app can subsequently have access to, like how email works. We have this in RCS, it just needs Apple to openly admit iMessage is a terrible failure and adopt it as their messaging standard.

If anything Apple's adoption of RCS and the subsequent 100% interoperability of it with Android's default messaging app would likely kill off every 3rd party messaging app.

I wonder if it would expand instead instead - kind of like all the various email front ends (and packages) we see today.
 

rhett7660

macrumors G5
Jan 9, 2008
14,225
4,307
Sunny, Southern California
Its what the EU should really be pushing for. There is no need for closed-off messaging services anymore.
Why??? Because it doesn't benefit you and as an android user? As an end user, I like the fact it is closed off. Maybe the ability to set a default app for messaging, but then again, I don't need that either. If I want to use a different app to talk to someone I can... I don't want it to be my default... I can receive notifications etc. So why is this so important to you?

I wonder who is really behind all of this, who is really pushing for all of this.
 

Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68020
May 2, 2021
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Its what the EU should really be pushing for. There is no need for closed-off messaging services anymore.
Eu are pushing for the market to choose. As long as interoperability is the result then they don’t mind. EU don’t care to dictate how things are done as long as the result is the same.
I completely disagree. I do not want my private messaging data shared among random companies. I also don't want to have to deal with spam from an infinite number of unverified accounts.
You won’t need to worry about it. If it’s E2EE then it’s private.

You need to pair the public encryption keys with the correct private key. And this is quite hard.
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,775
10,900
You won’t need to worry about it. If it’s E2EE then it’s private.

You need to pair the public encryption keys with the correct private key. And this is quite hard.
We've already had this conversation. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how e2e encryption works. If my keys are shared with a third party, than the third-party can break the encryption. That's not e2e encryption.

It also doesn't address the spam issue.
 

CarlJ

macrumors 604
Feb 23, 2004
6,971
12,135
San Diego, CA, USA
Its not about interoperability but rather the adopting of an open standard that any app can subsequently have access to, like how email works. We have this in RCS, it just needs Apple to openly admit iMessage is a terrible failure and adopt it as their messaging standard.

If anything Apple's adoption of RCS and the subsequent 100% interoperability of it with Android's default messaging app would likely kill off every 3rd party messaging app.
Except, if I understand the discussion and reporting correctly, the regulations in question don't require any single open standard, it requires messaging companies to provide some sort of messaging API to any other messaging company that requests it. There's not even a requirement for a given company to provide the same API to every other company that requests one, so a given company could very well decide to tailor versions of the API to each requestor. The regulation lays the groundwork for the adoption of a bunch of different point-to-point gateways, not some universal standard. This would mean each connection from company A to company B would support the least common denominator of the features that are common between the two (and the least common denominator of all of the limitations on each feature). It doesn't take long before the least common denominator of feature sets that are uniform across all the platforms approaches... SMS. A universal standard we already have in place.

I lived through the beginnings of the internet (and the time before that, with email and Usenet over UUCP), and all the different addressing schemes one had to use to get from any given system to another system. Not really interested in going back to that mess.

Email addressing, exchange, and forwarding only works as it does today because of a whole host of standards that were worked out, debated, and agreed upon by a whole host of companies, researchers/universities, and other interested parties. They didn't do it because of some government mandate or on some government timetable, they did it because they saw that it was mutually beneficial to everyone involved. This led, in particular, to RFC 821 "Simple Mail Transfer Protocol" and RFC 822 "Standard for the format of ARPA internet text messages" (the latter uses older naming for what we'd call email, and both have been subsequently superseded by newer revisions). And, notably, they devised a single standard that anyone could adopt and use to interoperate with the rest of the (expanding) group, they didn't build a collection of dozens of different ad-hoc "standards" connecting each pair of companies to each other (that's what they were getting away from), which is what this upcoming regulation is requiring (that is, the regulation isn't requiring separate/unique APIs for each pairing, but it isn't laying out one single standard, it's only mandating that any given company can require any other company to provide an API of some sort or another).

This is what you get when bureaucrats who do not possess the proper depth of technical knowledge, start writing laws dictating particular technology as if they did have that understanding. You get crap regulations. They either insist on fantastical technologically unsound things, or they have someone whispering in their ear telling them things to write that just happen to greatly benefit those who are whispering.

Assuming that the regulation in question is going to cause Apple to adopt RCS seems like a vast overreach in your assumptions. Your "100% interoperability" is never going to happen - there will always be things each system can do that the other can't... unless you expect Apple to entirely drop their own system and 100% switch over to RCS. I expect that will never happen - if it did, iOS users would be pretty damn unhappy (because of all the niceties they'd lose - doesn't matter if RCS has other nice things to offer or not). And RCS is, objectively, a bad standard - designed to drive control and profits back into the hands of the wireless carriers, rather than to benefit the end users.
 
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CarlJ

macrumors 604
Feb 23, 2004
6,971
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San Diego, CA, USA
Its what the EU should really be pushing for. There is no need for closed-off messaging services anymore.
It is your opinion, then, that anything that is not strictly needed (defined by some governing group's definition of "need") should be prohibited or made untenable, by legislation?

I mean, entertainment isn't "needed". Music isn't "needed". Ice cream isn't "needed". Emoji aren't "needed". (I could keep going, until I hit something you care about and feel is "needed"...).
 
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Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68020
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We've already had this conversation. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how e2e encryption works. If my keys are shared with a third party, than the third-party can break the encryption. That's not e2e encryption.

It also doesn't address the spam issue.
Your “keys” aren’t shared to anyone. Only 1 key of two are shared. one public and one private. And as long as the private key(never leaves your phone) aren’t shared it’s not possible to decrypt the messages.
 

RadioHedgeFund

Cancelled
Sep 11, 2018
422
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It is your opinion, then, that anything that is not strictly needed (defined by some governing group's definition of "need") should be prohibited or made untenable, by legislation?

I mean, entertainment isn't "needed". Music isn't "needed". Ice cream isn't "needed". Emoji aren't "needed". (I could keep going, until I hit something you care about and feel is "needed"...).
That is the complete opposite of what I said. 25 years ago there were no closed messaging systems and SMS was the only IM system on mobile. RCS offers all the benefits of modern IM systems like groups, media, threaded chats etc but without the need for a closed system like Telegram or WhatApp controlling all the throughput.

I liken it to the Gutenberg Press: prior to this the clergy had an effective monopoly on the Bible. This was partly because it took so long to hand-write copies of the gospels but also because it represented the power of the church. The press made bibles (and many other texts) more readily available and allowed anyone to set up their own business making pamphlets, newsletters and making literature more easily accessible, effectively using an early example of open-source technology as Gutenberg didn't have exclusive access to the technology. This kick-started the renaissance.

I'll put it another way: printed pamphlets and newspapers became a key tool in undermining British authority during the American Revolution. Had this technology been exclusively under the control of the crown (or non-existant, with all copies being hand-written) it is likely the colonies would have remained under British rule and the USA would be a very different place.

RCS, like email remains an open-source method of communication. You can set up an email provider and it works 100% with every other provider out there. Nobody has a monopoly on the underlying technology of email. The same thing applies to RCS (as applied to SMS): because the underlying technology is an open standard there is nothing stopping Apple, Meta or whoever else from creating a client app but it remains an open standard, standards on which the internet and its principles were built.

Closed messaging services like iMessage, WhatsApp and Telegram are outdated but the people in control of them are dragging their heals because they want to maintain control. What is therefore needed is a friendly reminder from the representitives of the people that closed-off, monopolised services are anti-consumer.
 
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RadioHedgeFund

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Except, if I understand the discussion and reporting correctly, the regulations in question don't require any single open standard, it requires messaging companies to provide some sort of messaging API to any other messaging company that requests it. There's not even a requirement for a given company to provide the same API to every other company that requests one, so a given company could very well decide to tailor versions of the API to each requestor.
The EU aren't saying Apple or anyone else should adopt RCS; they are wanting interoperability between services. I am saying this is a terrible idea to start with and the EU should be pushing for the mass adoption of RCS as an underlying messaging standard, of which anyone can built a client (like email) instead.
 
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RadioHedgeFund

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Why??? Because it doesn't benefit you and as an android user? As an end user, I like the fact it is closed off. Maybe the ability to set a default app for messaging, but then again, I don't need that either. If I want to use a different app to talk to someone I can... I don't want it to be my default... I can receive notifications etc. So why is this so important to you?

I wonder who is really behind all of this, who is really pushing for all of this.
I'm not going to repeat my above reply to CarlJ about early open-source technology like the printing press revolutionising the whole of society so I won't. Imagine if 25 years ago each carrier had its own SMS standard which would have led to one network controlling the entire market and therefore being able to dictate its own prices without consumer choice or competition. Imagine if you could only post letters written on a specific type of paper delivered by a specific type of postman to specific customers who paid for it. The idea of such a system in the real world is laughably absurd.

The internet itself was built on a set of open standards, from HTML to email and it benefited everybody.

The adoption of RCS and the binning of closed-off messaging platforms is to the benefit of everyone.
 
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BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,775
10,900
Your “keys” aren’t shared to anyone. Only 1 key of two are shared. one public and one private. And as long as the private key(never leaves your phone) aren’t shared it’s not possible to decrypt the messages.
When I send a e2ee message to Bob, I use Bob's public key to encrypt the message. Bob uses a combination of his password and his private key to decrypt the message.

If interoperability is required, than I have no reason to trust that the public key used to "encrypt" my message to Bob is actually valid because Bob could be using any number of service providers. There is also a trust issue with the handoff of my public key between my service provider and Bob's. I also have to trust that Bob's service provider is actually delivering my message to Bob and not Fred! Another problem is it exposes the metadata about my conversation (timestamps, participants, etc.) to an untrusted third-party.

And, again, that's a separate issue than the spam issue which is also a major concern.
 
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