Flip Flopping between macOS and Windows

[powertube]

What macOS offers in terms of scaling is really ridiculous, if you are not senile or almost blind, you are more or less forced to use at least a 27" 4K monitor. But then macOS is actually really good.
Windows generally does a better job, of course, although we have some issues when the scaling doesn't work quite as cleanly, especially when windows are moved between a 1080p display (notebook display) and the external display (4K).

Windows is much better for sure, but not perfect.

 

[Technerd108]

What he’s getting at is the software side

If Apple put some software effort in, all chosen resolutions at all screen sizes (within reason) could look “perfect”. If they truly cared about “accessibility” they would..

My scaled resolutions in Windows all look “perfect” … Apples way of handling high resolution screens hasn’t really evolved much in 13 years now

Since Apple has a much smaller set of hardware to support and introduces new hardware as part of their software. This leads to much less need to offer more resolutions simply because their is less hardware available. I am not wording this correctly but I feel like Apple doesn't have to innovate as much as PC OEM's simply because their is only one OEM-Apple.

PC OEM's have a lot of pressure to set themselves apart from other OEM's and they can't really customize Windows or make the software unique so they have to innovate on the hardware side. Microsoft has to be able to satisfy a very broad range of hardware. OEM's are given a hardware layer to wrote drivers and must meet certain requirements by Microsoft. So Microsoft has to be able to support a wide variety of monitors and resolutions because there is so much different hardware available for windows.

I think you get better hardware with innovative features with Windows laptops and desktops for less money because there is so much competition on the hardware side between venders. On the Apple side of things you have no competition on the hardware since Apple is the sole manufacturer which leads to less innovation and higher pricing.

Apple is in a unique position though. Since it is such a huge OEM and has such cheap exclusive manufacturing in China they are set up to make the most profit possible while staying competitive on price. The business model Apple is using is simply a profit generator. How to extract as much money as possible from consumers while making them feel they have something exclusive and special that not everyone can afford.

Apple is making money off classism more than on their hardware and software and most people don't see it or realize it and are instead caught up in it defending whatever Apple does because their self worth is tied into the products they own and Apple markets their products to enhance this effect. They like the fact that teens in the US are getting bullied if they don't have an iPhone or made to feel they are poor. This sells more iPhones and continues to reinforce the idea that Apple is exclusive and only for the "in" crowd.

Apple sells an image more than a product and if you own Apple products you can be a part of that image. You can be cool and think different while all the sheep have to use Windows and Android. Pretty powerful psychological manipulation but most marketing is that now a days. Nobody sells a product based on the attributes of the product rather they sell you a lifestyle the product is a part of and you can join if you buy. I wish more people would wake up from this commercialization and emotional manipulation and started to reject lifestyle marketing.

 

[jakey rolling]

I simply said you need 5K 27" to have a perfect 1-to-1 1440p, which is true.

Sure, that is an absolutely true little tidbit of information. It's also about as useful a statement as me saying you need Dolby NR to get the best sound out of a cassette tape. It is absolutely irrelevant to anybody not actually using that kind of outdated technology.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

I'm not sure what point you're making?

I simply said you need 5K 27" to have a perfect 1-to-1 1440p, which is true. That doesn't mean 4K 27" 1440p doesn't look good, that's what I used prior and it was nice a clear too.

This! So much this. In fact, due to the way that Mac handles aliasing and how it renders overall (First it will do the 4k then render at 1440p.)

Where Windows will mostly do fine, but it requires apps all to work perfectly. There are admin and development apps (here's looking at you Visual Studio 2022) that will be fine at 150% and then suddenly a menu will be SUPER TINY.

Windows is not better at this, I am sorry.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Since Apple has a much smaller set of hardware to support and introduces new hardware as part of their software. This leads to much less need to offer more resolutions simply because their is less hardware available. I am not wording this correctly but I feel like Apple doesn't have to innovate as much as PC OEM's simply because their is only one OEM-Apple.

PC OEM's have a lot of pressure to set themselves apart from other OEM's and they can't really customize Windows or make the software unique so they have to innovate on the hardware side. Microsoft has to be able to satisfy a very broad range of hardware. OEM's are given a hardware layer to wrote drivers and must meet certain requirements by Microsoft. So Microsoft has to be able to support a wide variety of monitors and resolutions because there is so much different hardware available for windows.

I think you get better hardware with innovative features with Windows laptops and desktops for less money because there is so much competition on the hardware side between venders. On the Apple side of things you have no competition on the hardware since Apple is the sole manufacturer which leads to less innovation and higher pricing.

Apple is in a unique position though. Since it is such a huge OEM and has such cheap exclusive manufacturing in China they are set up to make the most profit possible while staying competitive on price. The business model Apple is using is simply a profit generator. How to extract as much money as possible from consumers while making them feel they have something exclusive and special that not everyone can afford.

Apple is making money off classism more than on their hardware and software and most people don't see it or realize it and are instead caught up in it defending whatever Apple does because their self worth is tied into the products they own and Apple markets their products to enhance this effect. They like the fact that teens in the US are getting bullied if they don't have an iPhone or made to feel they are poor. This sells more iPhones and continues to reinforce the idea that Apple is exclusive and only for the "in" crowd.

Apple sells an image more than a product and if you own Apple products you can be a part of that image. You can be cool and think different while all the sheep have to use Windows and Android. Pretty powerful psychological manipulation but most marketing is that now a days. Nobody sells a product based on the attributes of the product rather they sell you a lifestyle the product is a part of and you can join if you buy. I wish more people would wake up from this commercialization and emotional manipulation and started to reject lifestyle marketing.

Okay? I think this is disregarding some basic concepts. The best developers for what I use happen to all want to develop solely in Objective C (and now Swift). For a couple of examples, you have DEVONThink--which means I can scan a utility bill on my phone, send it to DEVONThink, and it will parse key words out that match that bill, put in a date, and place it in the proper group for my power bill. All on its own. Good luck finding a windows equivalent. There isn't one that uses my cloud storage locally (WebDAV), with fill end-to-end encryption, full text searching, etc., etc.,

Take Ulysses. It doesn't have a Windows app either. I can literally start writing a chapter on my phone, and pick up that literal sentence on my mac or iPad.

I can use the default mail app with all my personal accounts in a unified inbox for free. I tried to do that in Windows and they want me to use the new Outlook with tracking and ads.

I have end-to-end encryption built in across the ecosystem with advanced data protection. Google and Microsoft will never allow this. They need that user data more than ever due to Copilot and Gemini, respectively.

Now, Apple sucks at upgrade prices. They are in line with sucky upgrade prices from Microsoft Surface, Dell XPS, and Lenovo and HP. So it isn't like this is just Apple.

These are just a few examples off the top of my head.

If I could game on Apple, then I wouldn't even need Windows at all. As it is, I still have a 4060 gaming laptop. If I could install a version of windows that would have zero telemetry out of the box forever, then maybe I would start using it again--because I don't like paying Apple upgrade prices. But since Microsoft cares so little for Windows that it gutted the entire testing team several years ago, and now that copilot is making all the money, we know that MS loves hoovering user data more than ever.

 

[rin67630]

150% on Windows is good, I agree. But there is still extra levels of crispness to be unlocked at 200% on a 27” 5K monitor.

Why?
Excepted for very old apps, no pixel scaling happens like on a Mac, Windows draws the screen natively at the requested size, 150% and 200% are equally crisp.

 

[rin67630]

Where Windows will mostly do fine, but it requires apps all to work perfectly. There are admin and development apps (here's looking at you Visual Studio 2022) that will be fine at 150% and then suddenly a menu will be SUPER TINY.

I don't have any of those apps. A few very old 32 bit apps are scaled and get slightly burred. I know none that will remain at 100%. Have you got an example?

 

[rin67630]

I simply said you need 5K 27" to have a perfect 1-to-1 1440p, which is true.

...only true on macOS.
All others don't interpolate, but draw natively at any resolution.

 

[rin67630]

I wish more people would wake up from this commercialization and emotional manipulation and started to reject lifestyle marketing.

Absolutely. I love your call to ... think different !

 

[rin67630]

I tried to do that in Windows and they want me to use the new Outlook with tracking and ads.

Only the free Outlook does that.
You are free to use e.g. Thunderbird if you need a 100% free mail app.

Regarding the rest of you post, I wonder that you seem to believe Apple does not track you and serve ads?

 

[Technerd108]

Okay? I think this is disregarding some basic concepts. The best developers for what I use happen to all want to develop solely in Objective C (and now Swift). For a couple of examples, you have DEVONThink--which means I can scan a utility bill on my phone, send it to DEVONThink, and it will parse key words out that match that bill, put in a date, and place it in the proper group for my power bill. All on its own. Good luck finding a windows equivalent. There isn't one that uses my cloud storage locally (WebDAV), with fill end-to-end encryption, full text searching, etc., etc.,

Take Ulysses. It doesn't have a Windows app either. I can literally start writing a chapter on my phone, and pick up that literal sentence on my mac or iPad.

I can use the default mail app with all my personal accounts in a unified inbox for free. I tried to do that in Windows and they want me to use the new Outlook with tracking and ads.

I have end-to-end encryption built in across the ecosystem with advanced data protection. Google and Microsoft will never allow this. They need that user data more than ever due to Copilot and Gemini, respectively.

Now, Apple sucks at upgrade prices. They are in line with sucky upgrade prices from Microsoft Surface, Dell XPS, and Lenovo and HP. So it isn't like this is just Apple.

These are just a few examples off the top of my head.

If I could game on Apple, then I wouldn't even need Windows at all. As it is, I still have a 4060 gaming laptop. If I could install a version of windows that would have zero telemetry out of the box forever, then maybe I would start using it again--because I don't like paying Apple upgrade prices. But since Microsoft cares so little for Windows that it gutted the entire testing team several years ago, and now that copilot is making all the money, we know that MS loves hoovering user data more than ever.

There is a lot to unpack here but it is mostly incorrect on the description of Windows or Windows apps like Outlook. You may not like it but there are no ads?? Tracking is much the same as mail on MacOS. If you have an active office 365 account or license for Office then Outlook is very private. Why would corporations rely on Outlook if it were full of ads and tracking???

I am glad you feel secure with end to end encryption. I don't trust anything on the cloud but my old photos. If I have sensitive data it is stored on a portable ssd and another copy on a hard drive ssd but I would not store any sensitive data online.

Windows may not be perfect and I detest the subscription model but it seems most all tech is trying to push customers on that direction and until people push back enough, nothing will change.

You do know Apple is now serving up ads in the app store and tracks how you use their apps? They don't share with a 3rd party but they are collecting data just the same. \

besides your niche case software example on Apple I don't see your point? There is Mac exclusive software and same with Windows. Obviously if you need Mac software and it doesn't exist anywhere else then you are stuck aren't you? I am sure if there was a way and enough of a market on Windows an app would be developed but some are copyrighted and only available on one platform. I would just say that is reason people will buy one platform over another but it doesn't make either less than the other because of it?

 

[LiE_]

Why?
Excepted for very old apps, no pixel scaling happens like on a Mac, Windows draws the screen natively at the requested size, 150% and 200% are equally crisp.

150% on a 4K 27” is not as crisp as 200% on a 5K 27”?? The pixel density is physically different. 163 vs 218 ppi.

I’m still not following this conversation thread. I’m not stating that 150% isn’t crisp on Windows, or macOS either.

 

[maflynn]

I’m still not following this conversation thread. I’m not stating that 150% isn’t crisp on Windows, or macOS either.

I have an ultra-wide 1440p monitor, and I use it at 125% and I'm pretty happy with the crispness. May not be as clean as 100% but for me it offers the right balance of screen real estate and font size. I haven't followed this Tête-à-tête but I think windows offers options and superior results at scaling then macOS. I think macOS looks nicer at native resolutions, but I've always found the retina display on a 5k, or MBP to produce fonts and objects too small, so I always had to scale it up

 

[jakey rolling]

Where Windows will mostly do fine, but it requires apps all to work perfectly. There are admin and development apps (here's looking at you Visual Studio 2022) that will be fine at 150% and then suddenly a menu will be SUPER TINY.

It's pretty obvious from this comment and the one below that you haven't really done any serious work in Windows in a very long time. While it is true that there are some very old applications that will not use Windows' modern scaling (I use exactly one, due to it being used as an offline database where I work - Lotus Notes 10), they do not cause issues with other applications. The "small menu" issue that plagues older software (I've only seen it with Dynamics GP - an ERP system based on a very old codebase called Dexterity) can be mitigated by adding a .manifest file in its code directory, telling Windows to use an alternate scaling renderer.

As far as Visual Studio goes, I've been using VS for many, many years (since version 2005, IIRC). It has scaled properly in Windows for quite a few versions now. This is what VS 2022 looks like on an LG Dual-Up scaled to 150% (note, this isn't even a very good representation - the "halo-ing" you see in the photos is from my camera - the text is absolutely crisp on the monitor itself):

Windows is not better at this, I am sorry.

Gotta say, I have to disagree with you. As would probably most people who work in both on a daily basis.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Only the free Outlook does that.
You are free to use e.g. Thunderbird if you need a 100% free mail app.

Regarding the rest of you post, I wonder that you seem to believe Apple does not track you and serve ads?

I have been down that path before with Windows folks (which is funny because I use all the major OSes), and, no, I don't think the tracking is equal between Apple and MS--not in the Copilot era especially. But, y'all won't agree, won't provide recent evidence, and that's fine. We can all believe what we like in this case.

Also, due to the Advanced Data Protection, what is able to be tracked is significantly less anyway.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

It's pretty obvious from this comment and the one below that you haven't really done any serious work in Windows in a very long time. While it is true that there are some very old applications that will not use Windows' modern scaling (I use exactly one, due to it being used as an offline database where I work - Lotus Notes 10), they do not cause issues with other applications. The "small menu" issue that plagues older software (I've only seen it with Dynamics GP - an ERP system based on a very old codebase called Dexterity) can be mitigated by adding a .manifest file in its code directory, telling Windows to use an alternate scaling renderer.

As far as Visual Studio goes, I've been using VS for many, many years (since version 2005, IIRC). It has scaled properly in Windows for quite a few versions now. This is what VS 2022 looks like on an LG Dual-Up scaled to 150% (note, this isn't even a very good representation - the "halo-ing" you see in the photos is from my camera - the text is absolutely crisp on the monitor itself):

View attachment 2377412
View attachment 2377413

Gotta say, I have to disagree with you. As would probably most people who work in both on a daily basis.

Okay, right. Got it. Now do that in a remote environment inside a corporate network. I am not allowed to take screenshots so I can't show you. But I really don't care if you believe me or not. You can use what you like, and I can use what I like.

Edited to add: You know it might be that we are using a combination of Windows 10 and Windows Server (not sure the version but not the newest one) that is the issue within my remote desktop connection. I don't own Visual Studio 2022 (nor would I want to) so I don't know how it looks on Win 11. Glad it has been fixed because most of the rest of the Windows Apps I use work just fine scaled now.

Edited to edited to add: Also, thank you for explaining that my work in windows isn't the serious kind because it isn't...why again? Does that mean that banks that have to still use COBOL aren't doing serious work? How about the NASA devs who reprogrammed Voyager 1? Anyway, your feedback was extremely helpful to my situation. As it happens, I was able to find a solution that works most of the time in my dev environment by using the Advanced Scaling Percentage (or whatever it is called) instead of the normal way...

 

[eltoslightfoot]

I have an ultra-wide 1440p monitor, and I use it at 125% and I'm pretty happy with the crispness. May not be as clean as 100% but for me it offers the right balance of screen real estate and font size. I haven't followed this Tête-à-tête but I think windows offers options and superior results at scaling then macOS. I think macOS looks nicer at native resolutions, but I've always found the retina display on a 5k, or MBP to produce fonts and objects too small, so I always had to scale it up

I agree with this. Well stated as always.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

There is a lot to unpack here but it is mostly incorrect on the description of Windows or Windows apps like Outlook. You may not like it but there are no ads?? Tracking is much the same as mail on MacOS. If you have an active office 365 account or license for Office then Outlook is very private. Why would corporations rely on Outlook if it were full of ads and tracking???

I am glad you feel secure with end to end encryption. I don't trust anything on the cloud but my old photos. If I have sensitive data it is stored on a portable ssd and another copy on a hard drive ssd but I would not store any sensitive data online.

Windows may not be perfect and I detest the subscription model but it seems most all tech is trying to push customers on that direction and until people push back enough, nothing will change.

You do know Apple is now serving up ads in the app store and tracks how you use their apps? They don't share with a 3rd party but they are collecting data just the same. \

besides your niche case software example on Apple I don't see your point? There is Mac exclusive software and same with Windows. Obviously if you need Mac software and it doesn't exist anywhere else then you are stuck aren't you? I am sure if there was a way and enough of a market on Windows an app would be developed but some are copyrighted and only available on one platform. I would just say that is reason people will buy one platform over another but it doesn't make either less than the other because of it?

I love you @Technerd108, and we have gone back-and-forth at times. And it looks like we even mostly agree here, but let me give you some updates on the new outlook from Paul Thurott himself.

First Ring Daily 1577: Over 700 Trackers in Outlook

On this episode of First Ring Daily, more than 700 reasons you probably won't want to use the new Outlook app.

www.thurrott.com

New Outlook Decried as a "Surveillance Tool for Targeted Advertising"

Thanks to new EU privacy regulations, the new Outlook displays a disturbing disclosure there that users elsewhere never see.

www.thurrott.com

Outlook's 2029 Lifeline: Embrace or Avoid the New Outlook App?

This Week in IT, Microsoft is promising to support the classic Outlook desktop app until 2029, I take a look at the new Outlook for Windows app and whether you should consider using it or holding off for now.

www.thurrott.com

Now show me where that is happening in Apple Mail. They also have to disclose it due to GDRP and I haven't seen any of that...so??? I am happy to be wrong, I just can't find anything.

As far as Office 365, I prefer LibreOffice, so I guess I can use Thunderbird, which I do when I am stuck with Windows as my daily driver, but before all this I could just use Windows Mail, Calendar, and Contacts.

 

[rin67630]

Since Apple has a much smaller set of hardware to support and introduces new hardware as part of their software. This leads to much less need to offer more resolutions simply because their is less hardware available.

It's worth noting that Apple stopped providing sub-pixel rendering at the time they began to sell Retinas...

...so I guess I can use Thunderbird, which I do when I am stuck with Windows as my daily driver, but before all this I could just use Windows Mail, Calendar, and Contacts.

Yes, the free new Outlook is crap. We can agree on that. So move over on Thunderbird and be happy.
Since I have the full Office pack, I don't care either, Office's Outlook is OK.
Anyhow, I just avoid using apps that only exist in one OS.

And if you run Windows on a Macbook natively, you usually have to start with an installer created by Rufus, which conveniently removes a lot of Microsoft's bloatware and lets you use Windows with a local account (which is also the case for every good corporate installation).

 

[jakey rolling]

Okay, right. Got it. Now do that in a remote environment inside a corporate network.

I've seen what you are referring to - I maintain Dynamics GP systems for multiple corporate clients, all remote. As I said before, it is a problem that only exists on very old software (of which Dynamics GP is one of them). The only reason such a problem doesn't exist in the macOS world is because you can't run old software on those systems.

Having said that, even when running over RDP on a corporate network, you can mitigate the "tiny menu" scaling issue by deploying a .manifest document in the code folder of the software causing the issue. I know this, because I've done it. Many, many times.

Edited to add: You know it might be that we are using a combination of Windows 10 and Windows Server (not sure the version but not the newest one) that is the issue within my remote desktop connection. I don't own Visual Studio 2022 (nor would I want to) so I don't know how it looks on Win 11. Glad it has been fixed because most of the rest of the Windows Apps I use work just fine scaled now.

You don't use VS 2022 but you were pretty sure that it had a scaling problem. My screen shots were from Win 11, but I have used VS on Windows 8, 10, and Server 2019. None of those had an issue with scaling, even over RDP, on modern software. Literally, the only program that I had encountered with such issues was Dynamics GP, and that was easily resolved.

Edited to edited to add: Also, thank you for explaining that my work in windows isn't the serious kind because it isn't...why again?

Because you would have used a real-world example of software that has issues with scaling than your made-up one.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

I've seen what you are referring to - I maintain Dynamics GP systems for multiple corporate clients, all remote. As I said before, it is a problem that only exists on very old software (of which Dynamics GP is one of them). The only reason such a problem doesn't exist in the macOS world is because you can't run old software on those systems.

Having said that, even when running over RDP on a corporate network, you can mitigate the "tiny menu" scaling issue by deploying a .manifest document in the code folder of the software causing the issue. I know this, because I've done it. Many, many times.

You don't use VS 2022 but you were pretty sure that it had a scaling problem. My screen shots were from Win 11, but I have used VS on Windows 8, 10, and Server 2019. None of those had an issue with scaling, even over RDP, on modern software. Literally, the only program that I had encountered with such issues was Dynamics GP, and that was easily resolved.


Because you would have used a real-world example of software that has issues with scaling than your made-up one.

You just had to add that last paragraph LMAO! So instead of being considerate and helpful you leave a different impression....

If I send you a screenshot via direct message, will you come here and admit that you were wrong? Which is hilarious because I already found a work around so it doesn't matter anyway -- and your .manifest approach would work too. Again, just when you are being helpful. Its like you can't help it HAHA.

Where's my "had us in the first half" gif?

 

[eltoslightfoot]

It's worth noting that Apple stopped providing sub-pixel rendering at the time they began to sell Retinas...

Yes, the free new Outlook is crap. We can agree on that. So move over on Thunderbird and be happy.
Since I have the full Office pack, I don't care either, Office's Outlook is OK.
Anyhow, I just avoid using apps that only exist in one OS.

And if you run Windows on a Macbook natively, you usually have to start with an installer created by Rufus, which conveniently removes a lot of Microsoft's bloatware and lets you use Windows with a local account (which is also the case for every good corporate installation).

I didn't know people were still using Rufus? I don't do any of this stuff in the corporate sector now...strictly dev work. Rufus was amazing back in the day. For my personal gaming laptop, I am stuck with the OEM software add ons from Acer. So I use Chris Titus's tool. I just cloned the drive and revert back if needed. Like I said, mostly I just use it for gaming now.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

I've seen what you are referring to - I maintain Dynamics GP systems for multiple corporate clients, all remote. As I said before, it is a problem that only exists on very old software (of which Dynamics GP is one of them). The only reason such a problem doesn't exist in the macOS world is because you can't run old software on those systems.

Having said that, even when running over RDP on a corporate network, you can mitigate the "tiny menu" scaling issue by deploying a .manifest document in the code folder of the software causing the issue. I know this, because I've done it. Many, many times.

You don't use VS 2022 but you were pretty sure that it had a scaling problem. My screen shots were from Win 11, but I have used VS on Windows 8, 10, and Server 2019. None of those had an issue with scaling, even over RDP, on modern software. Literally, the only program that I had encountered with such issues was Dynamics GP, and that was easily resolved.


Because you would have used a real-world example of software that has issues with scaling than your made-up one.

I see where you had the problem. I said I don't own VS 2022 not that I don't use VS 2022. Important distinction that colored the entire message.

 

[rin67630]

I didn't know people were still using Rufus?

What is supposed to be better/newer to create an installer without the TPM / CPU compatibility checks?

To install my favourite software, I start with chocolatey and then I have my own list of of apps that choco has to brief. That list is ways more comprehensive than what CTT offers.

 

[LeeW]

When are we getting to see some windows devices with ARM? Seems like I have been waiting impatiently for too long now.