Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

contoursvt

macrumors 6502a
Jul 22, 2005
832
0
Not what Apple is about. If it was, they'd already be doing it. Unless you're talking about the specs on it?

Sorry I was being sarcastic. I didnt mean they should take that identical dell box and slap on their logo. I meant they should build a Core2 based computer with a PCI-E 16X slot that can take a real video card and have a few other slots free as well. Have standard DDR2 and at least 2 hard drive bays in a middle sized case and price it accordingly or marginally more than a dell or HP of similar specs.

Apple know they cannot compete with mainstream boxes so they either give very stylish or different computers (mini / imac) which look great but lack upgradability or they give high end workstations. The reason is that neither of these markets are saturated so apple can get away with charging what they charge....
 

Irishman

macrumors 68040
Nov 2, 2006
3,407
846
Okay, a good start that Dell setup you posted. We can at least do some playing around wit hit. Let's suppose it's a base Mac gaming machine.

Comparable to a Dell Dimension 9200 sans 22" monitor:

2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Q6600 quad-core processor
OS X Leopard
2 GB 667MHz DDR2 RAM (total 4 slots)
320 GB Serial-ATA Hard Drive
nVidia GeForce 8600 GT (256MB DDR3) in one of two PCI-E slots
16x Superdrive
new flat keyboard and Mighty Mouse
iLife '08
iChat AV
iCal
Mail
Preview
Safari

$1299.99 (oops...cuts into iMac territory, could get ugly). Raise your hands if you'd pay that for a Mac Pro without monitor
 

contoursvt

macrumors 6502a
Jul 22, 2005
832
0
Of course people would put up their hands if they could get a mac pro at that price but unforunatly this dell is almost 1/2 the price of the four core 2Ghz mac pro with double the ram, a larger HD, a faster video card and a 22" monitor.

Also the Q6600 will likely be faster than a dual dualcore 2.0Ghz as well. The only shortcoming of this box is that it will be limited to a max of 8Gb RAM which is probably fine for 99% of people.

Also I dont think it would get ugly being priced the same as an imac since the imac offers a more compact and stylish solution as opposed to being a tower. They are different products so some will choose the imac and some will go for the tower.


Okay, a good start that Dell setup you posted. We can at least do some playing around wit hit. Let's suppose it's a base Mac gaming machine.

Comparable to a Dell Dimension 9200 sans 22" monitor:

2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Q6600 quad-core processor
OS X Leopard
2 GB 667MHz DDR2 RAM (total 4 slots)
320 GB Serial-ATA Hard Drive
nVidia GeForce 8600 GT (256MB DDR3) in one of two PCI-E slots
16x Superdrive
new flat keyboard and Mighty Mouse
iLife '08
iChat AV
iCal
Mail
Preview
Safari

$1299.99 (oops...cuts into iMac territory, could get ugly). Raise your hands if you'd pay that for a Mac Pro without monitor
 

Irishman

macrumors 68040
Nov 2, 2006
3,407
846
Of course people would put up their hands if they could get a mac pro at that price but unforunatly this dell is almost 1/2 the price of the four core 2Ghz mac pro with double the ram, a larger HD, a faster video card and a 22" monitor.

Also the Q6600 will likely be faster than a dual dualcore 2.0Ghz as well. The only shortcoming of this box is that it will be limited to a max of 8Gb RAM which is probably fine for 99% of people.

Also I dont think it would get ugly being priced the same as an imac since the imac offers a more compact and stylish solution as opposed to being a tower. They are different products so some will choose the imac and some will go for the tower.

Alright, what if Apple didn't cut into its own margins, and offered the same setup for $1999.99? Still would you?
 

contoursvt

macrumors 6502a
Jul 22, 2005
832
0
Alright, what if Apple didn't cut into its own margins, and offered the same setup for $1999.99? Still would you?

No. I cannot justify spending $700 more just because its a pretty case and has a modified EFI firmware that lets it boot OSX. At most I'd pay $200 more if it was an apple tower with a non apple branded LCD (say samsung or LG). If apple released a 22" LCD that was $100 more than samsung, LG..etc, then I can justify paying $300 more just because everything matches and might be more aesthetically pleasing.

Why should I pay more? I'm not in some cult that has to donate blood once in a while. I am a consumer and I want my hardware to be priced according to similar hardware from other makers. If the outside is nicer, fine then charge me the extra $100 or $150 to make it so but dont ream me for it.

If Porsche made a car with Porche skin but everything else under it was from a Subaru Impreza,then I'd want to pay the price of a Subaru Impreza plus a LITTLE bit more because the outside had to be made nicer. Dell / HP all use fairly standard components as does apple. Motherboards may be intel, Asus..etc. CPU's will be Intel, RAM will be Samsung, Micron..etc. HD will be the same, DVD roms will be similar, Video cards ATI/ NVidia. So the guts are all very similar. Nobody would be cutting corners.
 

Irishman

macrumors 68040
Nov 2, 2006
3,407
846
No. I cannot justify spending $700 more just because its a pretty case and has a modified EFI firmware that lets it boot OSX. At most I'd pay $300 more if it was an apple tower with a non apple branded LCD (say samsung or LG). If apple released a 22" LCD that was $100 more than samsung, LG..etc, then I can justify paying $300 more just because everything matches and might be more aesthetically pleasing.

Why should I pay more? I'm not in some cult that has to donate blood once in a while. I am a consumer and I want my hardware to be priced according to similar hardware from other makers. If the outside is nicer, fine then charge me the extra $100 or $150 to make it so but dont ream me for it.


Do you bitch about all Apple's computer prices then? About the other part that you added in, you can criticize Apple for overpricing, but if you're being honest, you're not buying their products. Are you buying their products? Those of us who have been in this for a decade or more know FULL WELL that there's ALWAYS been a sizable premium for buying apple. We are willing to pay it because the Mac fills a need for us personally or professionally. If that isn't true for your newbies (I don't know if you are one...that's just the impression I've gotten. Somkeone who'd been following Apple for years would be run out of steam criticizing prices).
 

contoursvt

macrumors 6502a
Jul 22, 2005
832
0
Do you bitch about all Apple's computer prices then?

Not all of them, just the price you asked if I'd pay because its way beyond whats reasonable.

Apple's mac pro prices are fairly on par with what a workstation would be but $1999 would not even be close to what a core2 based machine should be (even with 4 cores).


For $1999 someone can pick up that dell box with the 4 cores in it, upgrade it to 8 gigs ram and probably subtract the 22" and add a 24" higher res monitor and throw in a 2nd drive AND bump the video :)
 

GFLPraxis

macrumors 604
Mar 17, 2004
7,152
460
Alright, what if Apple didn't cut into its own margins, and offered the same setup for $1999.99? Still would you?

Apple DOESN'T have big margins. You realize that the Mac Pro IS the cheapest machine in its class on the market, right? Xeons cost a lot more than Core 2 Duos, but you can put more of them on a motherboard and they outperform it.

Apple simply doesn't have a machine with Conroe. The iMac uses mobile parts; they use VERY EXPENSIVE ones so that looking at a spec sheet it looks as good as a desktop, but the 2 GHz Core 2 Duo in an iMac costs a lot more than the 2 GHz Core 2 Duo you'd find in a Dell.

The iMac uses mobile RAM, mobile CPU, and mobile GPU part. In the case of the GPU, that means a slower GPU; in the case of the RAM and CPU, that means that while they perform as good as the desktop counterparts, they cost a lot more.

If you add up the component costs in the iMac you'll find that the profit margins are actually NOT very high. Same with the Mac Pro; in fact, the Mac Pro is the lowest-priced eight-core machine in the market, including Dell's offering which is almost $1000 more.


Essentially, you're comparing a machine built using high-cost parts for a small form factor and claiming that the machine built using low cost desktop parts is cheaper, then comparing the low cost desktop parts machine to a machine built with high-end expensive server parts (ECC RAM, Xeon processors) and claiming the high end machine is overpriced.


No, Apple simply doesn't have a machine that compares. Apple's profit margins are NOT that great on the iMac or the Mac Pro, they're not robbing you blind. They just don't have a machine built for those needs.

Your argument is that Apple is missing a machine class in their lineup. Not that Apple is overcharging. What you're telling me is that you want Apple to sell a machine using Conroe (desktop), not Merom (small form factor) and Woodcrest (server).
 

Irishman

macrumors 68040
Nov 2, 2006
3,407
846
I'd love to see the option on Apple's BTO site. Is anyone handy with web site design and could whip up a reasonable fascimile for us to froth over? :)
 

Irishman

macrumors 68040
Nov 2, 2006
3,407
846
Apple DOESN'T have big margins. You realize that the Mac Pro IS the cheapest machine in its class on the market, right? Xeons cost a lot more than Core 2 Duos, but you can put more of them on a motherboard and they outperform it.

Apple simply doesn't have a machine with Conroe. The iMac uses mobile parts; they use VERY EXPENSIVE ones so that looking at a spec sheet it looks as good as a desktop, but the 2 GHz Core 2 Duo in an iMac costs a lot more than the 2 GHz Core 2 Duo you'd find in a Dell.

The iMac uses mobile RAM, mobile CPU, and mobile GPU part. In the case of the GPU, that means a slower GPU; in the case of the RAM and CPU, that means that while they perform as good as the desktop counterparts, they cost a lot more.

If you add up the component costs in the iMac you'll find that the profit margins are actually NOT very high. Same with the Mac Pro; in fact, the Mac Pro is the lowest-priced eight-core machine in the market, including Dell's offering which is almost $1000 more.


Essentially, you're comparing a machine built using high-cost parts for a small form factor and claiming that the machine built using low cost desktop parts is cheaper, then comparing the low cost desktop parts machine to a machine built with high-end expensive server parts (ECC RAM, Xeon processors) and claiming the high end machine is overpriced.


No, Apple simply doesn't have a machine that compares. Apple's profit margins are NOT that great on the iMac or the Mac Pro, they're not robbing you blind. They just don't have a machine built for those needs.

Your argument is that Apple is missing a machine class in their lineup. Not that Apple is overcharging. What you're telling me is that you want Apple to sell a machine using Conroe (desktop), not Merom (small form factor) and Woodcrest (server).

I don't know to whom you're replying. Maybe some of me, maybe some of Contour? Um, for my part, about margins, compared to almost everyone else in the computer business, Apple has high margins. Probably not as high as ten years ago, but still comparitively high today. Gateway, HP, Toshiba, Sony, etc are almost sold at cost in retail locations, so any margin at all is going to be comparitively unique in the business.
 

Chone

macrumors 65816
Aug 11, 2006
1,222
0
You guys lost me but if you are talking about the Mac Pro's value then all I have to say is that its the only Apple computer that is a true bargain. Last time I checked it wasn't even possible to match the MP's price not even by building it yourself (and less without such a silent and effective case), don't know if that has changed but you should be comparing the MP to the Dell Inspirons not the Dimensions. Xeons are more expensive but at the same time they are just a way better processor than any Core 2 out there.

Apple did everything right with the Mac Pro, yeah even if it just comes with a 7300GT, its passively cooled and YOU CAN upgrade. And its priced well.

Apple please take a good hard look at what makes the Mac Pro so great and apply it to all your computers.
 

GFLPraxis

macrumors 604
Mar 17, 2004
7,152
460
You guys lost me but if you are talking about the Mac Pro's value then all I have to say is that its the only Apple computer that is a true bargain. Last time I checked it wasn't even possible to match the MP's price not even by building it yourself (and less without such a silent and effective case), don't know if that has changed but you should be comparing the MP to the Dell Inspirons not the Dimensions. Xeons are more expensive but at the same time they are just a way better processor than any Core 2 out there.

Apple did everything right with the Mac Pro, yeah even if it just comes with a 7300GT, its passively cooled and YOU CAN upgrade. And its priced well.

Apple please take a good hard look at what makes the Mac Pro so great and apply it to all your computers.


Yet the iMac is the same; it is almost impossible to build a machine in a similar form factor. You'd have to buy a laptop and hook it up to a desktop-caliber hard drive.

Again, what you're asking for is not an iMac improvement; you're asking for Apple to add an entirely new machine to their lineup.
 

Chone

macrumors 65816
Aug 11, 2006
1,222
0
Yet the iMac is the same; it is almost impossible to build a machine in a similar form factor. You'd have to buy a laptop and hook it up to a desktop-caliber hard drive.

Again, what you're asking for is not an iMac improvement; you're asking for Apple to add an entirely new machine to their lineup.

Well yeah but that doesn't mean we can't ask for a little more punch from Apple.

The truth is the iMac is supposed to be a DESKTOP not a laptop without battery. Sure no vendors sell it and you know why? Because its not practical, that is why.

For 1200$, including a 20" monitor, I can build a much better computer than an iMac, IT IS A DESKTOP, I don't care about it being thin or small, if thermals and accoustics are a problem, you can still beat the iMac so what is the advantage of the iMac's form factor? Please tell me, there are none that I can think of and if you are going to do it, at least do it right which Apple has not.
 

Irishman

macrumors 68040
Nov 2, 2006
3,407
846
Well yeah but that doesn't mean we can't ask for a little more punch from Apple.

The truth is the iMac is supposed to be a DESKTOP not a laptop without battery. Sure no vendors sell it and you know why? Because its not practical, that is why.

For 1200$, including a 20" monitor, I can build a much better computer than an iMac, IT IS A DESKTOP, I don't care about it being thin or small, if thermals and accoustics are a problem, you can still beat the iMac so what is the advantage of the iMac's form factor? Please tell me, there are none that I can think of and if you are going to do it, at least do it right which Apple has not.

One thing that is clear. Steve loves the all-in-ones. Sometimes it seems he has blinders on. Regaarding the all-in-ones...who in your view HAS done "it" right?
 

contoursvt

macrumors 6502a
Jul 22, 2005
832
0
I'll be 100% honest with you and tell you that I have no emotions or brand loyalty to apple or any other company. I buy what is reliable and works as long as I dont feel like I'm getting gouged on purpose. I've owned 3 macs in my life and I have purchased all used because I was never willing to pay apple's asking price because to me, it was unjustified. The only apple product that is worth what they ask and I'd be happy to buy (if I had the $$) would be the Mac Pro. Nothing else.

In the past I've owned a Quadra 950, Power Mac 9500/120, Power Mac 9600/350 and a G3 B&W 450. I've always built my own PC's which is why I guess I dont buy Dell or HP machines new either, but I'd buy a dell or HP midrange computer 10x over before an imac or mac mini because to me they are too limiting. Thats me I guess. I feel I'm more of an enthusiast than your average user. I dont need xeons and I dont need ECC support but what I do want is a computer that is fast, somewhat affordable for a home user, upgradable and reliable and apple is missing this market totally. You get all or nothing. Very upgradable Mac Pro or computer perfect for grandma. Sorry..thats the way I see it :)


Do you bitch about all Apple's computer prices then? About the other part that you added in, you can criticize Apple for overpricing, but if you're being honest, you're not buying their products. Are you buying their products? Those of us who have been in this for a decade or more know FULL WELL that there's ALWAYS been a sizable premium for buying apple. We are willing to pay it because the Mac fills a need for us personally or professionally. If that isn't true for your newbies (I don't know if you are one...that's just the impression I've gotten. Somkeone who'd been following Apple for years would be run out of steam criticizing prices).
 

contoursvt

macrumors 6502a
Jul 22, 2005
832
0
But thats exactly the problem. Steve does what he wants for himself and his users come second. He's almost a big kid that builds things for him and crazed worshipers just buy what he sells and then make excuses for any shortcomings or higher prices. Sorry I'm being harsh but it the way I view it.

IMO long gone are the days that apple really produced high quality cutting edge stuff compared to their PC counterparts. The last such item was the Beige G3. I feel the old stuff was build with no comprimises, offered things like built in SCSI which at the time on PC's were some very expensive add on and had lots of upgrade potential across their whole product line - except the horrid performa which was a mistake.



One thing that is clear. Steve loves the all-in-ones. Sometimes it seems he has blinders on. Regaarding the all-in-ones...who in your view HAS done "it" right?
 

progx

macrumors 6502a
Oct 3, 2003
778
888
Pennsylvania
Macs are becoming gaming machines. With games coming to the Mac OS, it will be. Until then, just throw on a copy of Windows XP and play until your eyes bleed.

Although, when it comes time to upgrade my Powerbook G4, I don't think I'll be investing in Mac games anymore. What's the point when I have Windows XP box, PS2, DS and Wii.
 

lost eden

macrumors 6502a
Mar 18, 2007
651
0
UK
they're not robbing you blind.
When was the last time you looked at Apple's RAM prices? They're an outright insult!

You guys lost me but if you are talking about the Mac Pro's value then all I have to say is that its the only Apple computer that is a true bargain. Last time I checked it wasn't even possible to match the MP's price not even by building it yourself (and less without such a silent and effective case), don't know if that has changed but you should be comparing the MP to the Dell Inspirons not the Dimensions. Xeons are more expensive but at the same time they are just a way better processor than any Core 2 out there.

Apple did everything right with the Mac Pro, yeah even if it just comes with a 7300GT, its passively cooled and YOU CAN upgrade. And its priced well.

Apple please take a good hard look at what makes the Mac Pro so great and apply it to all your computers.
You obviously haven't built many IBM-compats in your time. You can EASILY build an IBM-compat that performs BETTER than a similarily priced Mac Pro in all respects.

You can upgrade? Sure, you can upgrade from an old bottom-end card (the 7300) to an old top-end card (x1900). I hardly call that an upgrade, as you're going from old to old & still not getting good performance!

Xeons aren't really that much better than C2Ds, except in limited situations;

> You have PCI-X or 64bit PCI cards AND
> You need more than one dual core Intel CPU OR
> You need more than two PCI Express slots with more than x4 lanes per slot

For the average, non-workstation user, all the Xeons do are up the price of RAM considerably, as they need FB-DIMMs.
 

Irishman

macrumors 68040
Nov 2, 2006
3,407
846
When was the last time you looked at Apple's RAM prices? They're an outright insult!


You obviously haven't built many IBM-compats in your time. You can EASILY build an IBM-compat that performs BETTER than a similarily priced Mac Pro in all respects.

You can upgrade? Sure, you can upgrade from an old bottom-end card (the 7300) to an old top-end card (x1900). I hardly call that an upgrade, as you're going from old to old & still not getting good performance!

Xeons aren't really that much better than C2Ds, except in limited situations;

> You have PCI-X or 64bit PCI cards AND
> You need more than one dual core Intel CPU OR
> You need more than two PCI Express slots with more than x4 lanes per slot

For the average, non-workstation user, all the Xeons do are up the price of RAM considerably, as they need FB-DIMMs.


Not getting good performance with the X1900? Sorry, I can't let you get away with that. There's a bit of a disconnect between what you're saying and what you mean, I hope. :)

If you mean to say that the X1900 is not the fastest video card on the market, you'd be right. If you mean to say that current shipping games on a Mac Pro running the X1900 won't scream and be silvery smooth? You'd be dead wrong. You're still getting 50+ fps on most new games maxed out at high resolution. Some games and settings top out over 100 fps, so how does this make the X1900 not a good performer in a Mac Pro?

Google bare feats and X1900 for what I mean. Quake 4 maxed at 1900 x 1200 runs 54 fps! Doom 3 at the same settings runs 73 fps! The Halo Ub runs 88 fps (even though it's an older game), the two main UT2K4 demos, inferno flyby runs 198 fps at the same settings, and the inferno botmatch runs 95 fps!

How does that hinder even a hardcore player's enjoyment of the game? Come on, I'm all for more speed here, but let's put it in perpsective. It's great, FAR greater than we were getting years back.

Here's the funny thing. If you're gaming, there's NO need to ever spring for the 3 GHz options. At all.

<http://www.barefeats.com/quad10.html>

(netdemo001)

Q4 at 19 x 12 on the 2.66 and the 3 GHz MP w/ x1900 both run 53 fps.
Q4 at 1280 x 800 on the 2.66 runs 81 and the 3 GHz runs 82 fps.


(Demo1)

Doom3 at 19 x 12 on the 2.66 runs 71 and the 3 GHz runs 73 fps.
Doom3 at 1280 x 800 on the 2.66 runs 106 and the 3 GHz runs 120 fps.


UT Inferno Botmatch

UT2k4 at 19 x 12 on the 2.66 runs 80 and the 3 GHz runs 95 fps.
UT2K4 at 1280 x 800 on the 2.66 runs ? and the 3 GHz runs only 99 fps.

A Note from Barefeats.com:

"You can use Graphiccelerator 1.3.2 to change the ROM code so it runs at "normal" speeds or even better. (The memory clock is rated up to 900MHz.) For example, one user has his X1900 XT running at 650MHz core clock and 775MHz memory clock speed -- which turns it into an XTX. Of course, that may cause the X1900's fan to run more often."

Oh, and since Quake 4 caps framerate at 60 fps, you'll never see the "higher performance" anyway. In effect, if all you play is Q4, you're paying for performance you can't experience. Huh?
 

takao

macrumors 68040
Dec 25, 2003
3,827
605
Dornbirn (Austria)
Irishman:

UT2004: released more than 3,5 years ago running on the engine which powers UT 2003 which got released 2002 or nearly 5 years ago
Doom3: released 2004 (or 3 years ago)

personally my amd athlon xp with 1,6 ghz and it's the geforce 4400 ti (_middle_ class card of _5_ years ago) 1 gb ram can play UT2004 fluently (with frame rate drops on outside levels which i rarely play ;)) on medium settings

i think it's time to let go...
 

overcast

macrumors 6502a
Jun 27, 2007
997
6
Rochester, NY
You can't possibly expect anyone to care about benchmarks on game engines that are easily 3+ years old. I have the x1900xtx and even that is showing it's age with CURRENT games and certainly on future ones coming. The x1900xt is dated , end of story. Why are you defending the use of such an old card in such a highend machine? Todays hardcore gamers want 8800gtx's to play TODAYS games.

LIKE OMG, I CAN PLAY EVERY GAME PRIOR TO 2004 AT 200FPS. SWEET.
 

Irishman

macrumors 68040
Nov 2, 2006
3,407
846
You can't possibly expect anyone to care about benchmarks on game engines that are easily 3+ years old. I have the x1900xtx and even that is showing it's age with CURRENT games and certainly on future ones coming. The x1900xt is dated , end of story. Why are you defending the use of such an old card in such a highend machine? Todays hardcore gamers want 8800gtx's to play TODAYS games.

LIKE OMG, I CAN PLAY EVERY GAME PRIOR TO 2004 AT 200FPS. SWEET.

Titles please? What are these magical today's games of which you speak? If it's not available for the Mac natively, what do you care? you gonna install XP and run all your games in Bootcamp?
 

takao

macrumors 68040
Dec 25, 2003
3,827
605
Dornbirn (Austria)
Titles please? What are these magical today's games of which you speak? If it's not available for the Mac natively, what do you care? you gonna install XP and run all your games in Bootcamp?

i think that was part of the whole point

if i could install windows on my mac i would .. only for the games
 

Irishman

macrumors 68040
Nov 2, 2006
3,407
846
i think that was part of the whole point

if i could install windows on my mac i would .. only for the games

There was a lot of ranting in there, but very little to do with the point.

Unless Apple's going to include XP or Vista onboard to make Bootcamp cheaper and easier, very few of us Macheads are actually going to shell out the cash to buy a legit copy of Windows for games on a new Mac. We'd just buy a Wintel box and let it be (I for one don't want to hear about anyone's forays into software piracy, speaking of unspoken third options).

So, the topic was about reasons people think Macs aren't good for gaming. With Bootcamp it makes moot the whole argument that there are no games for Mac. It may not be a cheap solution, but it exists. It's available.

So now it's a question of price/performance ratio. I can get behind the call for a gaming Mac, as was brought up earlier in the thread. There's plenty of opportunity to complain if Apple goes 3-4 months without such a Conroe beastie. :)
 

lost eden

macrumors 6502a
Mar 18, 2007
651
0
UK
Not getting good performance with the X1900? Sorry, I can't let you get away with that. There's a bit of a disconnect between what you're saying and what you mean, I hope.

If you mean to say that the X1900 is not the fastest video card on the market, you'd be right. If you mean to say that current shipping games on a Mac Pro running the X1900 won't scream and be silvery smooth? You'd be dead wrong. You're still getting 50+ fps on most new games maxed out at high resolution. Some games and settings top out over 100 fps, so how does this make the X1900 not a good performer in a Mac Pro?
That's not what I was trying to say. The point that I was trying to make is that the ABSOLUTE best graphics card you can get in a Mac is over a year old, which in computing terms is ancient - it is even the best year old graphics card! Not only is it old, but Apple charges you a ludicrous amount of money for it. For the cost of an ENTRY Mac Pro with an X1900, you could have an IBM-compat with a (or multiple) newer, better graphics cards & overall FAR superior performance in games.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.