Mobile OSs Google faces EU charge over Android 'abuse of dominance'

[kdarling]

Personally, I think the EUC should force Apple to let the user change default apps. At least with Android, the user is in ultimate charge. Each user can set whatever app is best for them.

Ditto for allowing other iOS App Stores. If any other company, say Microsoft, had limited apps to ones they got a royalty on and had final say about, the world would've screamed bloody murder.

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As far as this EUC Google investigation, let me repeat:

It was not started by phone makers. The EU investigation was requested by a consortium of Google search competitors, called FairSearch.

What is FairSearch and why does it hate Google so much?
How Google's competitors learned to stop worrying and start lobbying
http://www.theverge.com/2013/4/12/4216026/who-is-fairsearch

This is really about whether or not people first search for travel via Google, or via Kayak. Whether they search for pictures via Google or Bing.

 

[SvP]

As an apple fan; I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[Lloydbm41]

Just because it's from the Wall Street Journal does'nt mean the opinions they garnered to form that sentance fully understood what the EU are actually trying to do.

The crux of their argument is that GOOGLE is currently penalizing OEM's by making its license agreement with them based on FORCED requirements of Google services and certain apps. An OEM can not choose to NOT put certain google apps on their devices.


You can see how this has affected recent devices who tried to cut down on the rampant duplication of apps and services that plagues most android handsets fresh out of the box last few years.

Samsung ended up ditching its own music player - kept google play music. They couldn't with the licence as it currently stands have dumped google play music and just kept Music Player, they would have HAD to include both.

HTC with their 10 have likewise (despite receiving plaudits for actually doing so) had to dump their own apps to get rid of duplication on the 10. Otherwise if they decided to keep their own apps instead they would have then been FORCED by its licence agreement to still have had to include the google ones.


As much as people say this is about choice, can folks not see if that trend persists - essentially the apps that come on any android handset will be all stock google apps and everyones handsets will fundementally be much the same, which does despite protestations here; kill competition.


Apple are different. They force the end consumer to decide if they want to use an apple phone with apple's services. That's the end consumers choice. You buy or you dont. Its just one phone, one manufacturer. They don't account for 75-80% of the smartphone market OS or licence the OS to other OEMs



The end consumer in a case like android; if the trend to force homogonise the OS continues; means that that consumer regardless of which android device from any of which oem they purchase, doesnt get to choose, Google has alreasy forced the decision at the licence agreement stages with the OEMs.

With Android forming the basis of the vast majority of the smartphone handsets sold, its an issue. That's the crux of the EU argumemt.




Now some have argued here that it does'nt matter what default apps are pre-installed on your android device because you can change many defaults. But that again is missing the point.

The EU argument is not based on what a user does afterwards with their device, but on what the device is shipped with or to be more specific 'FORCED' to ship with to retail.

We can see that google is trying to homogonise android. Which Google sees as offering a more coherent android experience to the end consumer. However forcing android oems to dump their own apps or services if they want to cut down on duplication rather than Google's own, is where the problem lies in the current matter.

Now imagine a couple more years down the line and Google's FORCED homoginsation (via licence agreement) continues. If LG, HTC, SAMSUNG and others are all offering the same pre-installed software with only minor differences here and there; this does kill competition and user choice. Which do you end up choosing? (Does it matter if they are all essentially the same inside).

Regardless of what you can change after the event, it is what your device (and the majority of devices marketshare wise) are FORCED to ship with that this ruling seeks to deal with.

Sounds to me like if the EU wins this, phones with Android on it headed for the EU may turn into complete garbage, because Google could simply not allow oem's to ship GAPPS on phones that are headed there. Google could also prevent many of its services from playing nice in the region. While some users would be able to counter this by finding GAPPS online and loading it, the majority of the people will have no clue. They'll be stuck using the garbage we saw 5 years ago from Touchwiz, Sense, Blur and so on... Creating a terrible experience for the end user. But hey, at least the EU is looking out for the OEM's and making life better for its citizens. /s

 

[MRU]

Sounds to me like if the EU wins this, phones with Android on it headed for the EU may turn into complete garbage, because Google could simply not allow oem's to ship GAPPS on phones that are headed there. Google could also prevent many of its services from playing nice in the region. While some users would be able to counter this by finding GAPPS online and loading it, the majority of the people will have no clue. They'll be stuck using the garbage we saw 5 years ago from Touchwiz, Sense, Blur and so on... Creating a terrible experience for the end user. But hey, at least the EU is looking out for the OEM's and making life better for its citizens. /s

The reality will be far less 'drama' inspired than the dystopian vision you paint.

Google will simply change it's T&C of its licence, but will offer benefits or come to mutual arrangements with manufacturers to continue to offer devices as they currently are, and in 12-24 months time this will have all blown over and nobody will remember what it was all about anyway ....

This is merely beaurocracy that will be resolved by lawyers & accountants in grey suits coming to deals with all and sundry. Nothing more ...

It certainly won't be resolved by folks on forums peeved with the EU or twisting the issue into blaming Apple for not allowing default app changes. None of which are relevant in this instance. But then you can't please everyone all of the time ....

 

[gotluck]

If only google had the balls to try the kinds of things apple does

Apple gets a pass on everything simply because they don't use Oems? Google and Microsoft have to be kicking themselves every day that they didn't take that route. Apple gets the most money and the most power over their ecosystem and users

 

[MRU]

If only google had the balls to try the kinds of things apple does

Apple gets a pass on everything simply because they don't use Oems? Google and Microsoft have to be kicking themselves every day that they didn't take that route.

It's not about getting a pass - it's just not relevant to this case. Likewise Apple are being scrutinised left & right about their tax situation and it's likely will face huge fines. All companies are looking out for themselves - not the end consumer. But each battle with a company must be played out in the relevant arena.

Not everything to do with Google has to have something to do with Apple and vice versa.

Google get just as many passes as Apple, just look at their minuscule tax settlement with the UK government.

These are incredibly rich tech companies and they got that way by flaunting rules & regulations and stomping their feet and throwing around plenty of muscle. They're all guilty of something, but each battle must be taken and seen on its own as they are still fundamentally different companies with structures and dealings. At some point all of them get bitten by regulating authorities.

Don't like Apple default apps or inability to change them. Exercise your right and don't buy an iPhone. That's how you can win your fight, jumping into the ring with EU regulators and Google whilst they argue over OEM licensing doesn't solve anything - only gets you clearly frustrated.

 

[gotluck]

That's very fair.


I just don't care about the tax stuff because it has no effect on users I guess.

I've been waiting since I got my first iPhone 4 on release day for someone to bust up apples processes that noone else seems to be allowed to do. It just blows my mind that nobody bats an eye at Apple taking away so many traditional user rights with ios. Their control also benefits them financially obviously.

I don't think telling me not to buy an iPhone is a fair response. Standards should be applied evenly. If android isn't allowed to do something, ios shouldn't be allowed to either.

 

[MRU]

That's very fair.


I just don't care about the tax stuff because it has no effect on users I guess.

I've been waiting since I got my first iPhone 4 on release day for someone to bust up apples processes that noone else seems to be allowed to do. It just blows my mind that nobody bats an eye at Apple taking away so many traditional user rights with ios. Their control also benefits them financially obviously.

Apple don't have to allow default app changes.

Indeed you can only change so much of Android defaults as many do not work or are integrated deeply in manufacturers baked OS. I can't change the settings to google's. I can't root without voiding warranty. I can't change default dialer completely on my S7e, and I can't disable many stock system apps without root - this voiding warranty ... So even in the 'freedom' model it is still walled in, with penalties from the manufacturers if I circumvent / climb over that wall....



Where Apple would almost certainly find itself in trouble with competition regulators is if it ever tries to block alternative apps to its own and competing services on the App Store. But at current you can get full Google app support and services and Microsoft app and services ... You might not be able to switch one to your default app, (but that may change in future going on rumours of iOS 10) but you can at least avail of them regardless. In that way you're freedom is not being blocked but constrained by the confines of iOS system lockdown - which you accept in the T&C during setup.

What Apple isn't doing is saying to Samsung or other OEMs - here is our OS - you can make an device based on it - but you HAVE to include the following apps and services or we will not allow you to use it ... That's what Google is currently doing.

And yes - your right to exercise your frustration with Apple by not buying an iPhone is the right response. Buying one knowing the current situation with default apps and then complaining would be moribund.

 

[gotluck]

Setting default apps is probably the item that bothers me the least though.

The app store itself is much more egregious, nobody else would get away with it.

ICloud having access to superior api also bothers me. For example google photos will never be as seemless as iCloud on ios. On Android they all act the same. On windows you can use Dropbox over one drive and have no consequences

No downgrading the OS is also unprecedented except on carrier android phones.

 

[kdarling]

It certainly won't be resolved by folks on forums peeved with the EU or twisting the issue into blaming Apple for not allowing default app changes. None of which are relevant in this instance. But then you can't please everyone all of the time ....

The investigation actually has two parts:

1. About Google showing its own Shopping comparison app output more prominently than any other choice, and whether that's an abuse. See:

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-4780_en.htm

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2. About Google tying its apps together as a single deal, and wanting its own apps set as the default if a phone maker does buy them. See:

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-15-4782_en.htm

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Now sorry, but to me, that's no different than Apple setting its own apps as the default. Except in iOS the user has no choice to change them, whereas in Android the user certainly can.

Remember, the EUC's goal is primarily supposed to be about ensuring that European users have easy access to all choices.

 

[MRU]

No downgrading the OS is also unprecedented except on carrier android phones.

I've had many android phones which are unbranded and unlocked and they many didn't allow rolling back of OS once updated - especially if the bootloader was updated during the process, so it's certainly not just a carrier issue on android. But it's by the by. I don't think the majority of folks are as irritated with Apple as you are and if they are - then there is an absolute sea of alternative devices to choose from. What you have with OS are valid criticisms, sure... But certainly not ones impeding your freedom to choose a different device .... If you had an issue with Google - it would rule out pretty much all the android handsets, not just one companies devices.

 

[MRU]

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Now sorry, but to me, that's no different than Apple setting its own apps as the default. Except in iOS the user has no choice to change them, whereas in Android the user certainly can.

Remember, the EUC's goal is primarily supposed to be about ensuring that European users have easy access to all choices.

This has been explained a million times in this thread already so I won't repeat, suffice to say

Apple doesn't licence it's OS to other OEMS with stipulations over its apps.

Apple affects only 1 company, 1 set of devices. iOS does not have 80% of the market.

Google licence stipulations affects the MAJORITY of smartphones and many OEM's. It's decisions affect a wider marketshare.

It's a completely different scenario, until Apple begins licensing it's OS to third parties and stipulating app content within its licence.

 

[gotluck]

I've had many android phones which are unbranded and unlocked and they many didn't allow rolling back of OS once updated - especially if the bootloader was updated during the process, so it's certainly not just a carrier issue on android. But it's by the by. I don't think the majority of folks are as irritated with Apple as you are and if they are - then there is an absolute sea of alternative devices to choose from. What you have with OS are valid criticisms, sure... But certainly not ones impeding your freedom to choose a different device .... If you had an issue with Google - it would rule out pretty much all the android handsets, not just one companies devices.

Unfortunately I do have issues with Oems because they can't be trusted to support their devices well. I would rather google controlled the OS more so we could get better support.

I have no problem buying Microsoft oem products because Microsoft has control of the software (and they let you do what you want too).

So I'm down to iPhone and nexus.

 

[Lloydbm41]

Unfortunately I do have issues with Oems because they can't be trusted to support their devices well. I would rather google controlled the OS more so we could get better support.

I have no problem buying Microsoft oem products because Microsoft has control of the software (and they let you do what you want too).

So I'm down to iPhone and nexus.

Soon to be iPhone, Nexus and Pixel.

 

[Klyster]

This has been explained a million times in this thread already so I won't repeat, suffice to say

Apple doesn't licence it's OS to other OEMS with stipulations over its apps.

Apple affects only 1 company, 1 set of devices. iOS does not have 80% of the market.

Google licence stipulations affects the MAJORITY of smartphones and many OEM's. It's decisions affect a wider marketshare.

It's a completely different scenario, until Apple begins licensing it's OS to third parties and stipulating app content within its licence.

But as Kdarling earlier posted, the consortium that are instigating the investigation are direct competitors with Google (witchhunt), they are not the OEMs who have obviously agreed to Googles terms .

This is only an issue in the EU, it's not global, that's a good indication of how dodgy this is, I vaguely remember Canada putting Google under the microscope for anti competitive behaviour only to find in the opposite.

How much profit does apple make from its percentage in the smartphone market and how can that not be relevant to the issue of monopoly and unethical control of users rights. When you are making a fortune off customers, your ethics should need to stand up to the competition. Kinda like how VW were making killing prior to bring found to cheat emissions. .

How much are the EU going to fine VW?
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-fine-idUSKBN0UN0A920160109

So what VW did was so far ahead of what Google supposedly have done but the EU don't seem to think so, some here think Google are evil and need punishing.

I think the whole thing is a witchhunt done to help sneaky relationships and a bit of quick cash for whomever gets the penalty money.

Smells like BS, probably is BS...

 

[Truefan31]

But as Kdarling earlier posted, the consortium that are instigating the investigation are direct competitors with Google (witchhunt), they are not the OEMs who have obviously agreed to Googles terms .

This is only an issue in the EU, it's not global, that's a good indication of how dodgy this is, I vaguely remember Canada putting Google under the microscope for anti competitive behaviour only to find in the opposite.

How much profit does apple make from its percentage in the smartphone market and how can that not be relevant to the issue of monopoly and unethical control of users rights. When you are making a fortune off customers, your ethics should need to stand up to the competition. Kinda like how VW were making killing prior to bring found to cheat emissions. .

How much are the EU going to fine VW?
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-fine-idUSKBN0UN0A920160109

So what VW did was so far ahead of what Google supposedly have done but the EU don't seem to think so, some here think Google are evil and need punishing.

I think the whole thing is a witchhunt done to help sneaky relationships and a bit of quick cash for whomever gets the penalty money.

Smells like BS, probably is BS...

I'm not sure how Apple and vw are related in any way. Apple makes profits like any company tries to do vs blatantly lying and hiding violations of government regulations at least in the us.

 

[Klyster]

They're not, but the disparity of action is.

 

[cube]

A lot lies on the "Don't Do Evil" principle. They are trying to accomplish many things and are fighting against other companies, some of which may be right in some sense sometimes.

Some of the longer term projects that get funded with the massive profits of the different actors might require international overseeing.

And it's not only about the consumers, there's a lot at stake these days for smaller companies regarding IP. In this case, I think Google might be playing a white hat role.

But you ask yourself about the transparency of search results, and the ability to look at search strings might be a competitive weapon.