Has Apple Silicon made you reconsider the Mac platform?

[fncd]

I just don’t understand why a “professional” user wouldn’t enjoy a nice looking machine ?? It’s a win win to make your devices nice to look at

For me personally, the new iMac is a non-starter. Sure, I’d love to have a “nice looking machine”, but not at the expense of being disposable tech. To me, that is the only thing apple is selling right now.

My 2020 Razer Blade Base (mercury) is arguably nice looking with thin bezels and oled display, plus it has the upside of at least some upgradability.

 

[LeeW]

but not at the expense of being disposable tech.

That is the biggest issue, I mean you can get by for years without needing a new CPU, you can add an external drive to provide more disk space but you cannot add RAM, ever. This is pertinent as so many lauded the 1st batch of M1 devices as 'you will never need more than 8GB Ram' which quickly turned into 'you really need 16GB of Ram'.

 

[throAU]

Yeah, its made me a lot more excited for it.

Here i was thinking i'd have to go to (somewhat grudgingly given the iOS compromises) an ipad to get better battery life, less noise, less heat, etc. but now i can get those things with macOS.

I'm very much NOT tied to intel architecture (and/or windows compatibility) any more, so BRING IT ON!

 

[throAU]

That is the biggest issue, I mean you can get by for years without needing a new CPU, you can add an external drive to provide more disk space but you cannot add RAM, ever. This is pertinent as so many lauded the 1st batch of M1 devices as 'you will never need more than 8GB Ram' which quickly turned into 'you really need 16GB of Ram'.

I honestly think we're close to the point now where end user RAM capacity requirements are going to remain reasonably static for some time for "most people".

So long as streaming throughput to/from storage into the RAM/CPU is fast enough, most end users (consumers, not professionals) won't need much more than 16-32GB for a while.

I mean even 8 GB has been fine (for most consumers) for the last decade or so. The step to 16 GB will be fine for most people for a decade. Absent any revolutionary tech that isn't yet on the horizon. For the coming wave of "mass market" AR/VR it is more than fine.

There will of course be niche users who need more (for my day job, i am one of those due to network device simulation, etc.), but for most consumers if anything needing more than that is in their workflow it will maybe be offloaded to a server in future.

But again, as network bandwidth improves, the big growth in memory capacity for most is on the server side.

We're gradually coming full circle where a lot of the back end work is handled by a server (the cloud) and the end device is just display and input (back to the dumb terminal days - albeit MUCH MUCH PRETTIER dumb terminals (ar/vr) ). Same concept as back in the 70s, just the UI is a lot nicer.

 

[maflynn]

I honestly think we're close to the point now where end user RAM capacity requirements are going to remain reasonably static for some time for "most people".

That's been the case for a number of years now, People will still look to upgrade to the maximum amount and justify that its needed for future proofing. Just look at the people pushing 64GB of ram on the MBP and their usage is office apps. I saw the same arguments for 32GB back when that was the max for Apple.

 

[Queen6]

Most seem to over spec, probably from bad advice. Non of my 12"/13" Mac's have exceeded 8GB of RAM, nor have they ever struggled, with all being employed professionally including the current M1 MBP. A 16" MBP depending on the project I'd spec up to 32GB max as it would be used with far heavier applications, 64GB would need to be for a very specific reason.

If anything memory management on both macOS & Windows has significantly improved over the year's, until I see a specific Mac suffering from memory pressure I'll stick with the same premise of buying the least I can get away with as sooner or later the devices will expire. Apple already has plenty of cash, partly due to it's tendency to scalp customers on in-house upgrades.

Q-6

 

[AndyMacAndMic]

I honestly think we're close to the point now where end user RAM capacity requirements are going to remain reasonably static for some time for "most people".

Ones upon a time a great philosopher allegedly said something similar (but it is hard to find proof of that) :

 

[fncd]

Ones upon a time a great philosopher allegedly said something similar (but it is hard to find proof of that) :

View attachment 1765016

I laugh every time I see that quote - especially since Gates himself refutes this and says "I've said some stupid things and some wrong things, but not that. No one involved in computers would ever say a certain amount of memory is enough for all time." "Meanwhile I keep bumping into that silly quotation attributed to me that says 640k of memory is enough. There's never a citation; the quotation just floats like a rumor, repeated again and again."

 

[fncd]

That's been the case for a number of years now, People will still look to upgrade to the maximum amount and justify that its needed for future proofing. Just look at the people pushing 64GB of ram on the MBP and their usage is office apps. I saw the same arguments for 32GB back when that was the max for Apple.

I think you're not wrong about some people chasing that "future proof" white rabbit that doesn't really exist. My personal stance on it isn't one of "future proofing" per se, more along the lines of - If, say, a year from now I find myself needing more storage space (apps / games / etc. continue to grow in size at a pretty good rate), I want to be able to do that without hanging things off of my laptop (or in this case iMac), and unfortunately in the age of disposable tech, that's becoming much much harder.

 

[Queen6]

I think you're not wrong about some people chasing that "future proof" white rabbit that doesn't really exist. My personal stance on it isn't one of "future proofing" per se, more along the lines of - If, say, a year from now I find myself needing more storage space (apps / games / etc. continue to grow in size at a pretty good rate), I want to be able to do that without hanging things off of my laptop (or in this case iMac), and unfortunately in the age of disposable tech, that's becoming much much harder.

Although I like Apple's design language, I don't always like the implementation, equally to run a Mac you pretty much have to accept Apple's terms. They have a point that the vast majority of Mac users don't upgrade, however that would be far more acceptable if Apple didn't outright price gouge on it upgrades.

Personally I don't mind external drives as works better for me across various systems/OS etc. The rest I don't worry about as by the time a single aspect of the notebook is struggling to keep up the likelihood is the machine is due replacing.

The M1 Mac's are just the next step in Apple's evolutionary chain which will turn some off, although I'd bet that the gains will be far greater than the losses.

Q-6

 

[ctjack]

Apple was never a company to satisfy individual needs. Back then, i refused to use iPhones and never believed in Apple. Because it had problems with mms, couldn't send pictures over Bluetooth and you needed itunes.
Then it became less limited and at some point it is even better than android (jailbroken iphone).
Then i believed in Apple and bought my first iphone in 2015. Year later Buffet also invested his money into Apple for the first time.
You either like what you see and use it, or you avoid Apple until it offers you something suitable. Because the majority is really "easy" users and 8Gb of RAM is even enough for "medium" workload.

 

[LeeW]

I do kind of like that across a full range of devices that is MBA, MBP, Mac Mini, iMac and now iPad Pro. They all have an M1 chip. No Ax, i3, i5, i7, i9, just M1. Soon enough the higher end machines will just have an M2 and that is how it will progress.

 

[Steve Adams]

Ones upon a time a great philosopher allegedly said something similar (but it is hard to find proof of that) :

View attachment 1765016

I have 32gb in my notebook and 128gb in my workstation and I would love more. But both are maxed on what they can use.

 

[LeeW]

They have a point that the vast majority of Mac users don't upgrade, however that would be far more acceptable if Apple didn't outright price gouge on it upgrades.

I think Apple has two types of customer;

The - Just give me that one, looks nice. Spec? Yeah, whatever, just that one.
Or - What's the max RAM, SSD and best CPU, give me it all as I am scared to not have what I don't need.

Very little in between

 

[throAU]

Ones upon a time a great philosopher allegedly said something similar (but it is hard to find proof of that) :

View attachment 1765016

That quote was massively taken out of context (much like you've just done with me, as i specifically mentioned niches that will continue to demand more), and during a time of annual/bi-annual increases in processing/capacity of 1.5-2x or so.

We aren't living in the 1980s any more; computing for a long time has been "good enough" absent any new killer app. AR/VR is that killer app IMHO, and devices like the Quest2 are already doing it with far less resources on-board than your typical entry level M1 macbook.

 

[Queen6]

I think Apple has two types of customer;

The - Just give me that one, looks nice. Spec? Yeah, whatever, just that one.
Or - What's the max RAM, SSD and best CPU, give me it all as I am scared to not have what I don't need.

Very little in between

I'm likely one of the minority as I generally know exactly what I need, nor interested in higher specs for the sake of it. There is the fact that if the computer is a component of the revenue stream the cost is mostly irrelevant, that said can also add complication's as it would now be a BTO system not stock.

Q-6

 

[AndyMacAndMic]

That quote was massively taken out of context (much like you've just done with me, as i specifically mentioned niches that will continue to demand more), and during a time of annual/bi-annual increases in processing/capacity of 1.5-2x or so.

We aren't living in the 1980s any more; computing for a long time has been "good enough" absent any new killer app. AR/VR is that killer app IMHO, and devices like the Quest2 are already doing it with far less resources on-board than your typical entry level M1 macbook.

I know it was taken out of context hence the words 'allegedly' and 'but it is hard to find proof' in my post etc.

Also I hoped the hyperbolic words 'great philosopher', 'allegedly' and the smiley would have indicated that it was meant as a joke .

I agreed with your post and I did not intend to criticize you. It was an attempt to add some lightheartedness to the conversation. Sorry if I did not make that clear enough

 

[LeeW]

I'm likely one of the minority as I generally know exactly what I need, nor interested in higher specs for the sake of it. There is the fact that if the computer is a component of the revenue stream the cost is mostly irrelevant, that said can also add complication's as it would now be a BTO system not stock.

For the most part, the "just give me that one" approach works for the masses. That is those who just use the machine without any specific requirement that would lead them to think about spec. I am not saying Apple machines are perfect at the base level. An 8GB machine will likely thrash the SWAP but this is only an issue for those that stare at the activity monitor all day.

 

[Queen6]

For the most part, the "just give me that one" approach works for the masses. That is those who just use the machine without any specific requirement that would lead them to think about spec. I am not saying Apple machines are perfect at the base level. An 8GB machine will likely thrash the SWAP but this is only an issue for those that stare at the activity monitor all day.

Depending on the usage 8GB remains fine on swap file usage. I've still got a 2014 13" MBP, 2015 12" rMB and now the 13" M1 MBP none have exhibited excessive swap file use or memory pressure with the 2014 being really pushed as a work machine for 2 years. The 12" rMB did struggle at times, however that was more related to the CPU and in all fairness I was asking too much of the notebook at the time.

I tend to leave Activity Monitor open so can easily reference any poor behaviour. Those that need more RAM already know that and I don't think Apple would cut the RAM to the bone as they are very much about the user experience. I think a lot is down to 3rd party SW that is poorly written/optimised which is the case with the M1's paging out excessively resulting in TB of writes to the SSD in a matter of weeks.

Clearly some specific applications and or the need for VM's are a different case and should be obvious that 16/32 or greater is a requirement. TBH I've always rather considered the recommendation for the majority of users to increase RAM to future proof to be poor advice. I don't run endless background apps to monitor the system etc. with the work machines having what they need installed to do the job. The rest I keep down to a small as reasonably possible, not having any proprietary dependence (for the most part) helps as I can maintain control of the SW image.

If people feel better by giving Apple more $$$ I'm happy for them An aspect of my rational is that I generally, well certainly pre COVID I would swap out the notebooks at around 24-30 months due to the heavier pro usage.

Q-6

 

[The_Interloper]

Those that need more RAM already know that and I don't think Apple would cut the RAM to the bone as they are very much about the user experience.

Tell that to anyone who bought the 2014 Mac Mini with 4Gb of soldered RAM and a 5400rpm hard drive.

 

[Queen6]

Tell that to anyone who bought the 2014 Mac Mini with 4Gb of soldered RAM and a 5400rpm hard drive.

True, equally I think they have moved on a little since then as has the SW. TBH never considered a Mac Mini as always had a handful of MBP's.

Q-6

 

[LeeW]

I've still got a 2014 13" MBP, 2015 12" rMB and now the 13" M1 MBP none have exhibited excessive swap file use or memory pressure with the 2014 being really pushed as a work machine for 2 years.

Interesting, I am not using this current 8GB M1 Mac Mini for anything I would consider to be pushing it that much and a 2GB swap file is average. I consider that excessive and a clear message there is simply not enough RAM but equally not an issue in general.

 

[Queen6]

Interesting, I am not using this current 8GB M1 Mac Mini for anything I would consider to be pushing it that much and a 2GB swap file is average. I consider that excessive and a clear message there is simply not enough RAM but equally not an issue in general.

Different story here, never seen it pass 700MB, I don't really focus on it, just noticed it prior to 11.3. Being up since 11.2.3.

Think too many focus on such things far more than is healthy, as long as the computer isn't running poorly I don't remotely care or think on such matters. I leave app's open such as Activity Monitor as a factor of convenience not necessity. In all likelihood same applications, same usage the swap file usage would be basically the same for both the M1 MBP & M1 Mini.

This 32GB W10 system currently has 6.75GB of swap file usage. Different OS and execution yet performing the same task nor of any concern. You know yourself if RAM is of issue it will show up under Memory Pressure on macOS, even in the yellow the system will remain stable and usable...

Q-6

 

[Steve Adams]

Whats crazy is that I find myself looking a used mac mini's now. Ha ha. I think i am going to pick one up to try Big Sur on. There is a brand new sealed in box 2014 available here for 375 obo cdn. Are all the models ram soldiered onto the board?

 

[The_Interloper]

Whats crazy is that I find myself looking a used mac mini's now. Ha ha. I think i am going to pick one up to try Big Sur on. There is a brand new sealed in box 2014 available here for 375 obo cdn. Are all the models ram soldiered onto the board?

Yes, all 2014 models have soldered RAM and dual-core processors only. The 2012 models have quad-core i7's (if you can find any) and upgradeable RAM. 2018 RAM is also upgradeable (but a nightmare to get to).