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AgentElliot007

macrumors 6502a
Mar 22, 2010
575
363
I did the demo as well. It was both cooler than expected and much worse than expected all at once.

First of all, it truly was very uncomfortable with single band; I thought this might have been overblown, but my nose hurt within minutes despite adjusting and realigning several times, and it still never fit great and had some minor light leakage. But after 15 minutes I had a ton of sinus pain that stuck with me an hour after I got the thing off, and I only had it on maybe 20 minutes. Very disappointed they shipped it as is from this alone given how fundamental it is to the experience. It’s clearly too heavy right now for a simple single band experience.

Second of all, the immersive experiences, particularly the sports, animals and theater really were wow moments. They looked great and you really do feel like you’re in a massive theater. Sound placement is also very impressive.

Third, the pass through was not great even in a bright Apple Store. This part was massively oversold. The blur, the graininess, the quirks; it’s better than the rest, but still pretty lousy, and the immersion knob was less granular than I expected. That said, how well the windows stick to their environments was impressive.

Lastly, the most impressive thing to me wa also the most frustrating: eye tracking and hand gestures. This is the part of Apple Vision Pro that excited me the most and most clearly felt like the future. Being able to look at things and click I think is quite powerful, and as it improves in future generations, this input method will be very cool, with some major caveats.

Typing was a nightmare, not because it was hard to fuss out a word on the keyboard one by one but when you made a mistake and have to look at what you’re typing and then look down to select and type, you realize how misguided some aspects of that interface are fundamentally. Similar to Touch Bar on MacBook Pros, having to look down to know what you’re hitting is rough. I’d hope and imagine you could move the keyboard so it’s easier to see both, but given how many areas you can be interacting with things, that interface method was shockingly bad.

Final Verdict: Very cool in a few ways, and also very bad in some difficult to overcome ways. As impressive as some experiences are, this product clearly isn’t ready for prime time, and I suspect there will be a lot of frustrated users. There’s some big fundamentals about the experience that need work, yet the eye tracking really did feel like the first glimpse into the future. As a tech enthusiast, it’s tough not to want one to explore the future, and it’s certainly more interesting to explore than a first gen Apple Watch was, but it’s also $3500 for what feels more like an alpha stage product than even beta. I’m not sure a next-gen will solve core issues at this point. Gen 3-4 should get lighter, more comfortable and capable, but Apple hasn’t shown great ability to rethink and improve software lately, and that’s going to be a big problem here.
 

Jamacfer

macrumors 6502
Sep 3, 2015
279
255
京都市
One more thing I wanted to point out. This is not replacing your iPhone now or probably ever. The iPhone (or phone in general) is still the central tech gadget that almost everyone needs. You still need a Mac (or computer) to do any real 'work". This is a complementary device such as an iPad. I think the phone, in its current form, will continue to exist for many many years. Just wanted to point that out because I have heard people say that this will replace the iPhone eventually.
I believe that at the moment the AVP will stand alongside the Mac and the iPhone. Later it may replace the iPad (particularly for content fruition). I also think that in many cases it will be able to replace the Mac especially in mobility. As for the iPhone the problem is only related to the size, when it becomes small enough (like somewhat thick glasses) it will replace it too.
 
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Jamacfer

macrumors 6502
Sep 3, 2015
279
255
京都市
What most people don't get is that this is never going to happen, not even in 100 years. A pair of glasses can physically never provide all the immersion and rich feature set a full-on headset can. It will get lighter, more comfortable, and improve camera & screen quality over time. But it will never be as small as "glasses". Don't hold your breath on that one.
I believe that when we talk about "pair of glasses" we are obviously referring to the size and comfort of a pair of glasses. And that will happen much sooner than people think, maybe a decade or less.
 
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leifp

macrumors 6502
Feb 8, 2008
367
355
Canada
From someone who had seen so many reviews and Apple's promotional videos, I thought it would be a perfect fit.

Can't do: Mac Virtual display with my Studio Mac, can't handle more than 1 Apple ID, can't access Disney+ due to different Apple IDs, can't keep it on my face longer than 30 minutes - my cheekbones and eyes hurt, and the control panel placement really sucks.

After 3 days of use I am going to return this $3800 toy.

It's a great toy, but not productive for me to warranty keeping it.
Any reason you’re returning it before the two weeks you get to keep playing with it, figuring out peccadillos, etc?
 
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Jamacfer

macrumors 6502
Sep 3, 2015
279
255
京都市
From someone who had seen so many reviews and Apple's promotional videos, I thought it would be a perfect fit.

Can't do: Mac Virtual display with my Studio Mac, can't handle more than 1 Apple ID, can't access Disney+ due to different Apple IDs, can't keep it on my face longer than 30 minutes - my cheekbones and eyes hurt, and the control panel placement really sucks.

After 3 days of use I am going to return this $3800 toy.

It's a great toy, but not productive for me to warranty keeping it.
There are so many expensive “toys” around…cars, watches, phones, computers, luxury handbags…perhaps you prefer different kind of toys, it is perfectly fine! Maybe you will try it again in a few years (even the iPhone in 2007 was not that great).
 

4sallypat

macrumors 68040
Sep 16, 2016
3,494
3,300
So Calif
Any reason you’re returning it before the two weeks you get to keep playing with it, figuring out peccadillos, etc?
I might keep it, I just got off an Apple Support call and the rep talked me thru the issues I had with it.

Gotta give a lot of credit to the Apple Support reps who have not received their AVP as part of the support training.

He was able to address all my concerns after 45 minutes patiently on the phone with me.

The only thing he could not figure out is how to pair the iPhone to the AVP for making/receiving calls...
 

MisterSavage

macrumors 601
Nov 10, 2018
4,654
5,495
Yes actually, it is. When you become a burden or irritant to the people next to you or to the crew, that's literally the definition of rude. You might not care, which is pretty clear from your tone, but that doesn't make it any less rude. The best part about rudeness though...it isn't up to you to determine what behavior of yours is rude. Others will make that determination.

Got it. Next flight I will make an attempt to stay awake 100% of the time regardless of flight length. Everyone that walks by will get my full attention.

I know I wouldn’t care. The most annoying person is that one next to you who drags the laptop out and tries to do work. Or even watches a movie. Because unfortunately I have to see it too.

At least with a headset he can do what he wants in vr land and leave me out of it.

Oh yes, those people that crank their brightness up to 1000% are a joy to be sitting near. How I wouldn't love for them to be wearing an AVP.
 

ttyRazor

macrumors regular
Sep 24, 2019
239
380
Wonder how much weight could be saved by moving the processors/fans etc to the battery pack. Also maybe a move to titanium at some point maybe? hopefully these things could get it down from 600g to somewhere nearer 400g.
I’d be curious to see the weight of each of the components to find where the bulk of the weight comes from and if that’d really improve things. Moving the processors outside would likely just increase latency and it’d still need at least a Thunderbolt connection and enough of a processor to handle it. I’m picturing something akin to the A-series chip in the Studio Display, which is just going to add even more cost for not much benefit in weight reduction.
 
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G5isAlive

Contributor
Aug 28, 2003
2,642
4,580
First of all, it truly was very uncomfortable with single band; I thought this might have been overblown, but my nose hurt within minutes despite adjusting and realigning several times, and it still never fit great and had some minor light leakage. But after 15 minutes I had a ton of sinus pain that stuck with me an hour after I got the thing off, and I only had it on maybe 20 minutes.

Not to be indelicate, but would you characterize your nose as small or large? I am NOT trying to discount what you are saying, or defending Apple, sincerely interested in why people's legitimate comfort experiences vary so widely. Me, I definitely have a small nose, I don't want to call it petite cause that sounds weak, but eh, it's small. I feel zero pressure on my actual nose wearing the AVP for five hours straight. I feel pressure on my forehead, and on my cheek bones, but zero on or around my nose. So yep, when people report actual nose pain, got to wonder about the size of their nose, or maybe my nose just got frostbit once or twice too often. I almost also curious because my wife has a large nose, and just want to be tuned in to her discomfort when I have her try it.

edit. btw, I should have led with thank you for your in-depth review. I did enjoy reading it.
 

ttyRazor

macrumors regular
Sep 24, 2019
239
380
I also did the Demo today... I was blown away by the Immersive videos towards the end of the demonstration. Never experienced anything like this. I'm not personally buying one, I could buy tons of em if I wanted, its just I spend enough time on a computer/iphone already and I prefer some nature and disconnecting :) To those who purchased or are about to....ENJOY! It really is an incredible device with a strong future. Wild.
The thing that jumped out to me was that the immersive videos looked a lot better than the passthrough, likely since they were filmed with cameras way higher quality than what they can fit in the headset and plenty of adjustments that don’t have to be realtime. Passthrough felt flat color and brightness-wise in comparison.
 

G5isAlive

Contributor
Aug 28, 2003
2,642
4,580
Lastly, the most impressive thing to me wa also the most frustrating: eye tracking and hand gestures. This is the part of Apple Vision Pro that excited me the most and most clearly felt like the future. Being able to look at things and click I think is quite powerful, and as it improves in future generations, this input method will be very cool, with some major caveats.

This. I had to train myself with Siri or Alexa to really enunciate clearly and slowly to be reliably understood. My normal rapid fire speaking is hit or miss still.

with eye tracking and gestures, I am having to learn to train my eyes to linger on what I am looking at while pinching my fingers together. this is REALLY hard for me, my eyes are constantly flicking about, so its hard to get good control (FOR ME). I am getting better after .. 15 hours now, but it is taking time for me to master. There is definite lag in the device. Also a problem for me is, well, I tend to fidget, even while pinching my fingers, so what I mean as a click sometimes becomes a selection of text. or worse. I have to learn to keep my hands still while pinching. It's definitely a learning curve, intuitively obvious from the start, time to master (FOR ME). I am hoping that Apple will, if they havent already, figuring out how to implement some sort of learning program so that it starts to figure, um when this guy pinches he means the thing he was looking at 10 ms ago, or , yeah thats a pinch not a had wave. But that is likely far off in the future. I dont think it's just a hardware limitation is what I am suggesting. Though I do have to keep my hands in very plain site.
 
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G5isAlive

Contributor
Aug 28, 2003
2,642
4,580
The only thing he could not figure out is how to pair the iPhone to the AVP for making/receiving calls...

my guess is thats a software issue and who knows when we will see that. seems so obvious. But eh. First Gen. I also would like my iPhone to unlock when I pick it up and look at it with my AVP. some one else said that, maybe you, and I was like YES!
 
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ttyRazor

macrumors regular
Sep 24, 2019
239
380
But that content. Who’s going to make it? It’s like the old days of one 4k channel on direct tv. I don’t see apple cranking this stuff out.

Apple put these on as teasers to sell a demo. You can see similar on a quest 3 and that stuff is much easier to see because Apple has disabled safari or intentionally prevents YouTube on safari from playing this type of immersive content.

Apple of course is doing this to protect us. It’s not high quality enough. We don’t think you should see it.

When evaluating avp to purchase you really need to ignore the immersion stuff at end. That’s barebones on this device. Or wait til sports and this type of stuff is abundant in this immersive format.
Yeah, new content with any kind of regularity would be necessary to make this a selling point. Producing and distributing this content might even be the point of Apple TV+, since hardly anyone else is going to produce it. Live sports would be the easiest way to get a steady stream of new content, but somehow I doubt they’d be able to stream that level of quality live.
 

Night Spring

macrumors G5
Jul 17, 2008
14,623
7,798
my guess is thats a software issue and who knows when we will see that. seems so obvious. But eh. First Gen. I also would like my iPhone to unlock when I pick it up and look at it with my AVP. some one else said that, maybe you, and I was like YES!
How would the iPhone know it was YOU who picked it up, and not another person wearing a VP?
 
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Markgnyc2

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Nov 17, 2013
352
540
Yeah, new content with any kind of regularity would be necessary to make this a selling point. Producing and distributing this content might even be the point of Apple TV+, since hardly anyone else is going to produce it. Live sports would be the easiest way to get a steady stream of new content, but somehow I doubt they’d be able to stream that level of quality live.
During the demo, they showed a soccer game that you are immersed in, watching from above the net. They showed a baseball game at Fenway park watching from the dugout. I believe these are experiences that will be available very soon since Apple has the MLS package and MLB on Friday.
 

Night Spring

macrumors G5
Jul 17, 2008
14,623
7,798
I might keep it, I just got off an Apple Support call and the rep talked me thru the issues I had with it.

Gotta give a lot of credit to the Apple Support reps who have not received their AVP as part of the support training.

He was able to address all my concerns after 45 minutes patiently on the phone with me.

The only thing he could not figure out is how to pair the iPhone to the AVP for making/receiving calls...
How did you resolve the issue of pain when wearing it?
 

Bustermd

macrumors regular
Apr 21, 2020
153
331
But you don’t need a 3500 device to view 3d videos.
No you don't. I probably wasn't clear, but how I see this type of thing being useful in the future is as a type of "monitor" that would complement a phone/tablet/computer, versus being a self contained device that might replace a phone/tablet/computer as it is in its current concept.
 

ttyRazor

macrumors regular
Sep 24, 2019
239
380
Would you need passthrough with a transparent screen?
I’m pretty sure the kind of pass through hes talking about is already looking through that transparent OLED. You’d somehow need lenses that distort whatever’s past the transparent OLED so that the lenses that let you focus on the centimeters-distant OLED undistorts that, for any arbitrary focal depth. I don’t know enough about optics to predict what arrangement of lenses could accomplish that, but I’m pretty sure you’re back in headset thickness territory at that point.

That’s why so many glasses-like implementations use mirrors or prisms to instead project the display mounted in the frames or arms onto transparent glass in front of your face.
 
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ttyRazor

macrumors regular
Sep 24, 2019
239
380
During the demo, they showed a soccer game that you are immersed in, watching from above the net. They showed a baseball game at Fenway park watching from the dugout. I believe these are experiences that will be available very soon since Apple has the MLS package and MLB on Friday.
Those were prerecorded and had plenty of time to be edited just right. The question is if those views (and probably multiple vantage points of the same game) can be captured, processed and broadcast in real time.
 
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G5isAlive

Contributor
Aug 28, 2003
2,642
4,580
How would the iPhone know it was YOU who picked it up, and not another person wearing a VP?

Mmmm I guess I was thinking of it like I do how my iPhone unlocks my watch. The two devices communicate. My watch also unlocks my Mac so clearly thats possible too. But thinking through this, I have face authenticated on my phone to unlock it, I have my watch on my wrist in close proximity and it is on, so the two make the assumption its not someone else standing really close to me with my watch on, but its me, and the watch unlocks. Someone must have tested this before, trying to trick the watch? dont know.

But with the AVP I have iris authenticated it's me. Does the AVP know where it is? maybe not, because there is no find me. but I suppose that would be key. it probably could know if it was on the same wifi network. and wifi seems to give some idea of geographical location, so lets assume it knows where it is, knows the phone is close by. the phone knows it is picked up, lidar could tell the AVP something roughly the size of the phone is coming close to my face..? so to trick me someone would have to be near me, holding my phone, and a phone sized object waved in front of my face that is not the phone? I suppose there are a lot of assumptions I am making about the ability to interpret lidar in real time and maybe some real security risks, but I think maybe it could be done?

but maybe your question is if my wife, for example, is wearing her AVP, and I am wearing mine, sitting on the couch (OMG I can hear the dystopian nay sayers already), if she picked up my phone... it would call out to my avp, my aVP would signal it its on, that might confuse things and it opens for my wife? but part of this exercise is somehow my AVP would know its looking at my phone and I am holding it. Hey, maybe my watch? LOL

okay, I get it, far fetched. Still would be nice but at least your question and this thought exercise tells me why it hasn't already been done.
 

Zwhaler

macrumors 604
Jun 10, 2006
7,113
1,623
Well, back when I was a kid, airplane tech had just gotten to the point where adults around me were talking about how it used to take X hours to fly from A to B, but it now only takes half the time! Yay, progress! So I thought surely if things keep progressing at this rate, by the time I grew up, we'd be able to fly from Tokyo to New York in 5-6 hours. But no, progress in airplane speed stalled, and travel times on airplanes are pretty much the same as when I was a kid. So past progress isn't a guarantee of future progress, and yes, we could very well "sit here forever."
It's very true. However, the financial incentive is different in this case. For reference, the Gulfstream 650ER flew HND to New York in under 11 hours. Not that this equals 5-6, but truthfully the jumbo jet business (Airbus, Boeing) doesn't have much financial incentive to double the speed of their aircraft while holding the same amount of passengers, a requirement influenced substantially by their customers. Also, don't forget the Concorde.

The market at large isn't satisfied with the AVP. It's a $3500 niche glimpse of the future, and though usable in its current form, it's far from perfect. And that's the point. It's now a race to see who can develop this technology into a more ideal form. Unlike the current state of smartphones, which the majority of humanity is clearly satisfied with given market penetration statistics, AR and VR tech needs to go further in order to reach mainstream adoption. It's now a race to get there, and whichever tech company (Apple, Meta, Microsoft etc) gets there in conjunction with display manufacturers (Sony, Samsung, LG, etc.) gets the biggest bag.

What's ultimately going to happen is the tech will be developed relatively more quickly until it levels off with demand, and then the rate of progress is going to slow down similar to what we've witnessed with smartphones.

Case in point: iPhone gen 1 to iPhone gen 8 (iPhone 6). Look at the relatively rapid evolution in design of the first 8 years of iPhone spearheaded by Steve Jobs. iPhone 6 to today is 10 years later, and the pace of design evolution certainly hasn't been as rapid, especially in the last 5 years.

Notably, the iPhone 6 was the best selling iPhone. It was at that moment that the producers of this technology began to experience the most financial satiation of their appetite following their efforts, and slowed down the rate of change. They weren't as hungry to evolve the tech as they were in the beginning. I expect the same to happen with AR display tech. And yes I expect this to take up to 20 years to achieve. It's just a guess my friend.
 

4sallypat

macrumors 68040
Sep 16, 2016
3,494
3,300
So Calif
my guess is thats a software issue and who knows when we will see that. seems so obvious. But eh. First Gen. I also would like my iPhone to unlock when I pick it up and look at it with my AVP. some one else said that, maybe you, and I was like YES!
Right ?

Seems so obviously simple that I am surprised Apple didn't offer instant ID since your VP is using optic ID to verify....

The Apple Support rep said he didn't know why they couldn't integrate the VP with iPhone just like Airpods, Macs and iPads all seamlessly work together.
 
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G5isAlive

Contributor
Aug 28, 2003
2,642
4,580
Right ?

Seems so obviously simple that I am surprised Apple didn't offer instant ID since your VP is using optic ID to verify....

The Apple Support rep said he didn't know why they couldn't integrate the VP with iPhone just like Airpods, Macs and iPads all seamlessly work together.

Well, I sat down and started to think about how you would actually implement something like that, and it is somewhat complex. the tight integration we have with our iPhones, Macs, Watches evolved over years. We take them for granted now, but it's not just a matter of thinking of the feature but implementing. So yeah, I think it might take some time before the APV is fully integrated.

But here is a funny story for you, for a couple of years I could not figure out why my iPhone never rang when I was at work. Really irritated the CEO. It worked everywhere else. One day I am sitting at my desk on my Mac with the studio display and I notice the upper right corner is flashing that I have a call, and it hit me. The computer is taking over the ringing function, but I always have my computer volume at zero so the beeps and chirps everyone builds into their software doesnt annoy me! No volume no ring tone. Duh.

So, why doesnt apple check to see if your computer volume is zero before assuming the ring should come from the computer (with option to answer there)?

My point is, apparently integration takes time to come up with all the what if contingencies :)
 

XboxEvolved

macrumors 6502a
Aug 22, 2004
808
1,003
Yeah $3500 for what it is just isn't going to cut it and besides that, that would definitely be the most expensive tech I've ever bought by a long shot, it's super fragile, and like the OP said I'm sure it is amazing but not $3500 amazing. Maybe $1500 amazing or even $2k, but any amount of mental gymnastics I do personally I can't figure out a way to justify it. Not to mention the Apple Care is not only pretty much a requirement with something this fragile, but it's extortion with the $500 price+ the prices to fix anything on it.

I definitely look forward to trying it out though when I get around to the Apple Store by me. I still stand by my general idea that the tech hasn't caught up to the ideas Apple and people have for this thing and the ultimate goal is something far smaller. I'm not really sure how something far smaller is even possible currently, unless they approach this product more like an iPod than a iPhone or Mac, but I still think this general experience will be had for at least $1000 by sometime next year (they will cut corners, take stuff out of the box, make a "one size fits all", a lot of these little things add up to one big thing logistically) and possibly even with better hardware.

I have a lot of great ideas how this should be used, and I've seen a lot of great ideas for how it should be used but most of the ideas I've seen are just that for now. So we will see what happens with it in the future.
 
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klasma

macrumors 603
Jun 8, 2017
5,942
16,707
Would you need passthrough with a transparent screen?
I meant the transparent screen by “pass-through”. The problem is there will be a lens in front of the transparent screen, so that the digital 3D content looks right (otherwise you’d only see a blur because the screen is so close to your eyes), but at the same time the lens will distort whatever you would see through the transparent parts of the display.

If you have $3500 to spare, disassemble a Vision Pro, take out its two lenses that are in front of the OLED panels, and look through those lenses at your surroundings. You won’t see anything useful, it will be completely distorted. But at the same time the lenses are needed so that you see something useful from the OLED panels when wearing the AVP.
 
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