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maflynn

macrumors Haswell
Original poster
May 3, 2009
73,572
43,556
I thought it might be nice to have a thread dedicated to the intel cpu as we have an AMD thread

For me, I'm looking at mobile processors - Ice Lake out but only for Y and U series - No H series. The next H series CPU will be Tiger Lake. Any word on the release date for that?
 

Falhófnir

macrumors 603
Aug 19, 2017
6,141
6,992
Well we're only now seeing Comet Lake H (10th gen 14nm) so I wouldn't hold my breath on Tiger Lake any time soon unfortunately :confused:
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
Original poster
May 3, 2009
73,572
43,556
Well we're only now seeing Comet Lake H (10th gen 14nm) so I wouldn't hold my breath on Tiger Lake any time soon unfortunately :confused:
Yes, I missed that
There are laptops with the 10th gen already sold at specific vendors.

I was mistaken, I thought you were referencing ice lake - my mistake
 

raqball

macrumors 68020
Sep 11, 2016
2,323
9,573
I am not a fan of the Intel wifi 6 used in the 10th gen machines.. I've had 2 different machines with the chip and both have been problematic when waking from sleep with slow speeds...

A quick disconnect and reconnect solves the issue but the wifi chips are trash in my opinion... I am happy with the Ice Lake CPU for the most part other than that. No issues to report and it fast and smooth with win 10...
 

Never mind

macrumors 65816
Oct 25, 2018
1,071
1,191
Dunedin, Florida
I am not a fan of the Intel wifi 6 used in the 10th gen machines.. I've had 2 different machines with the chip and both have been problematic when waking from sleep with slow speeds...

A quick disconnect and reconnect solves the issue but the wifi chips are trash in my opinion... I am happy with the Ice Lake CPU for the most part other than that. No issues to report and it fast and smooth with win 10...

this has been going on prior to WiFi 6. Have you done a Google search to see what others have done to remedy this problem? Sleep or hibernate
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
Original poster
May 3, 2009
73,572
43,556
Where did you see that Tiger will be H?
I initially came across info on reddit, but since then (it predated CES 2020), we got I think a more definitive idea of the roadmap

ExtremeTech
It’s CES 2020 and Intel is busy talking about its product lines for this year and beyond. We’ve got some updates for you on a variety of products. First up — Comet Lake-H, the high-end version of Comet Lake with support for CPUs drawing up to 45W.

According to John Burek at our sister site PCMag, Intel will offer a larger selection of 8C/16T CPUs with Comet Lake-H. Currently, Intel offers one CPU that hits a 5GHz boost clock with 8 CPU cores — the Core i9-9980HK. PCMag reports that the Core i7 H series will be capable of boosting to 5GHz, while the i9 variants will boost even higher. This is a bit of a surprise, given that no Intel desktop chip has pushed above 5GHz for boost clocks yet.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
Original poster
May 3, 2009
73,572
43,556
I will say that Intel's roadmap is confusing and a mess. I think they never recovered from their tick-tock release cadence, and their inability to reach 10nm has jumbled things up.

I found this helpful the article is dated April 2019, so the information may be a bit inaccurate or stale, but I think it helps provide some clarity.

Source:Intel CPU 2018-2021 Roadmap Leaks Out – Up To 10 Core Comet Lake-S Desktop CPUs in 2020, 14nm Rocket Lake-S in 2021, No 10nm LGA Parts Till 2022


1578836566949.png


With the Intel talking about Comet Lake and the H series CPU coming in 2020, the above roadmap does seems to be on target.

Anandtech: Intel at CES 2020: 45W 10th Gen Mobile CPUs Soon, Tiger Lake with Xe Graphics Later
 

jinnyman

macrumors 6502a
Sep 2, 2011
761
671
Lincolnshire, IL
Well nothing interesting to discuss really. Their roadmap nowadays are already too complicated and 14nm says alot. I believe Intel will comeback eventually, but for next 2 years, AMD will lead the consumer market.

If intel loses footing in mobile sector with introduction of AMD's 7nm Mobile, intel's consumer chips are in deep hole.
 
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cube

Suspended
May 10, 2004
17,011
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So, if you have to buy a new laptop before 2022, one depends on AMD adding Thunderbolt and AVX-512 compatibility.
 

jinnyman

macrumors 6502a
Sep 2, 2011
761
671
Lincolnshire, IL
So, if you have to buy a new laptop before 2022, one depends on AMD adding Thunderbolt and AVX-512 compatibility.
Well. We still have to wait and see how good AMD has improved in power consumption. But, for example, we are talking 15W 8core 16thread cpu with much better igpu here that can go in mbp13. Apple, if it chooses to do, can add tb3 or usb 4.0.
 

cube

Suspended
May 10, 2004
17,011
4,972
Well. We still have to wait and see how good AMD has improved in power consumption. But, for example, we are talking 15W 8core 16thread cpu with much better igpu here that can go in mbp13. Apple, if it chooses to do, can add tb3 or usb 4.0.
I don't think Apple wants to use AMD if it is behind in ISA.

I was talking about buying a PC.
 

throAU

macrumors G3
Feb 13, 2012
8,944
7,106
Perth, Western Australia
I will say that Intel's roadmap is confusing and a mess. I think they never recovered from their tick-tock release cadence, and their inability to reach 10nm has jumbled things up.

The lack of working 10nm is the source of all of their problems.

For those who don't follow this sort of thing...
  • A working 10nm process would enable intel to make roughly 2-3x as many CPUs of the same feature set/transistor count (they went for 2.7x scaling) on a silicon wafer.
  • A working 10nm process would also reduce power draw at the same feature set and clock speed
  • Once mature, a 10nm process, due to the above scaling, would enable intel to make 2-3x the number of parts at the same/similar cost
Unfortunately several things have happened
  • AMD have had success with their Ryzen based design which has forced intel to raise core count (which means more transitors, which means less dies per wafer which raises cost).
  • Due to the larger than intended core count on 14nm, these high core count parts are drawing a lot more power than originally intended (witness the early days of X299 motherboards frying VRMs due to ridiculous power draw on the high end X299 CPUs - more than 10 cores - that were originally never intended to be released using 14nm).
  • AMD has been able to get 7nm parts in volume from TSMC. 7nm TSMC ~ 10nm intel process, but the big advantage is that TSMC are actually able to produce in volume
  • Almost all of AMD's CPUs they are currently building use the same small chiplet building blocks. Rather than trying to juggle logistics of making many different dies, AMD can focus on stamping out as many Ryzen chiplets as possible and them combine them in different ways to build different products. i.e., they can focus on making many small parts as efficiently as possible. Intel have several different core sizes they need to juggle manufacturing of based on what they think is required, in advance.
  • intel had a run of security vulnerabilities that significantly impacted their datacentre workloads. this resulted in enterprise needing higher core counts to do the same work
End result:
  • AMD can put out higher core count parts than intel can for the same price
  • AMD's design after a couple of revisions is MORE efficient than intel's current designs, per core, in performance per clock and performance per watt
  • in order to satisfy demand for higher core counts, intel is having to make higher core count CPUs than 14nm process was originally intended for. As each die is larger there is a higher percentage of it containing a defect. Not only is intels cost going up due to less dies per wafer, but the defect rate is rising as well which means they're having to throw more partly broken dies out
  • due to getting less working dies out of a wafter, intel is running into supply constraints
So this is a bit of a perfect storm for intel. Their design is behind. Their process is behind. AMD are kicking goals in a big way. In order to try and compete on performance and core count, intel have sacrificed volume which has pushed up cost per part, but due to both TSMC's 7nm success and AMD's chiplet strategy AMD have been getting amazing manufacturing efficiency with a design that at this point is outright superior to anything intel have this side of 2022.

The next year will be interesting. Intel have nothing competitive either now or prior to 2022 at least (assuming they can hold firm on their current roadmap).

To compete on price they are going to bleed money, and even if they were to win sales based on cost, they are stretched trying to manufacture enough parts right now anyway due to the 10nm process delays.
[automerge]1578875109[/automerge]
So, if you have to buy a new laptop before 2022, one depends on AMD adding Thunderbolt and AVX-512 compatibility.

There is nothing to stop apple adding thunderbolt to an AMD based machine - as Apple are a co-developer/licensee of the protocol.

Some already existing AMD boards for desktop even have thunderbolt that can be made to work.

This is by no means an unsolvable problem.

Also, for a large segment of the market, USB-C/3.x is "plenty fast enough".
 
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cube

Suspended
May 10, 2004
17,011
4,972
There is nothing to stop apple adding thunderbolt to an AMD based machine - as Apple are a co-developer/licensee of the protocol.

Some already existing AMD boards for desktop even have thunderbolt that can be made to work.

This is by no means an unsolvable problem.

Also, for a large segment of the market, USB-C/3.x is "plenty fast enough".
Apple would not want to add a chip when Intel is already integrating TB3.

And the main problem would be that AMD is behind in ISA.

If you look at the Steam surveys, the PC only reached 100% SSE3 quite recently, while the Mac has been at SSSE3 for a long time. So Apple would strive for modernity.
 

throAU

macrumors G3
Feb 13, 2012
8,944
7,106
Perth, Western Australia
And the main problem would be that AMD is behind in ISA.

Actually, AMD are getting better performance per clock cycle than intel already except for the very niche case of AVX512. Which almost no desktop workloads use.

AMD are massively ahead in both core count and performance per core, per watt, right now.

Also way ahead in integrated GPU performance, which would be important for the volume of Apple's sales.
 

cube

Suspended
May 10, 2004
17,011
4,972
Actually, AMD are getting better performance per clock cycle than intel already except for the very niche case of AVX512. Which almost no desktop workloads use.

AMD are massively ahead in both core count and performance per core, per watt, right now.

Also way ahead in integrated GPU performance, which would be important for the volume of Apple's sales.
AMD is ahead on performance, but behind in features.

I am not talking about having a 512-bit FPU, but supporting the ISA.

Even if consumer applications do not use AVX-512 now, they will in some years time.

Some games are no longer compatible with SSE3-level CPUs because of gratuitous SSSE3, SSE4, or AVX usage (DRM).

Some other programs and webcams now require AVX or even AVX2.

Ice Lake and Tiger Lake are the gateway to consumer AVX-512.
 
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theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,710
2,812
...So this is a bit of a perfect storm for intel. Their design is behind. Their process is behind. AMD are kicking goals in a big way. In order to try and compete on performance and core count, intel have sacrificed volume which has pushed up cost per part, but due to both TSMC's 7nm success and AMD's chiplet strategy AMD have been getting amazing manufacturing efficiency with a design that at this point is outright superior to anything intel have this side of 2022.

The next year will be interesting. Intel have nothing competitive either now or prior to 2022 at least (assuming they can hold firm on their current roadmap)....
Having said all that, isn't Intel still ahead in single-core performance for top-end mobile processors? [And maybe for top-end desktop processors as well, though I'm not as familiar with AMD's offerings there.]

Single-core performance is still important. Most of the programs I (and many others) use—my examples would be Mathematica, Word, Excel, PowerPoint, BaKoMaTeX (a real-time LaTex compiler), FindAnyFile (search program), and searches in Outlook—are single-threaded or mostly-single-threaded. And, given my workload, I often see significant (multi-second) wait times for routine, repeated tasks with all of them (except Mathematica, where, depending on the calculation, it can be minutes).

I'd like those delays to be as short as possible, and isn't top-end Intel mobile significantly faster for those single-threaded tasks than top-end AMD mobile?

[Yes, as you can see from my signature, my processor is 5 years old, but I expect I'd still get perceptually significant delays even with the latest chips (which probably at best cut them by half). So it's a matter of who cuts those delays the most.]
 
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throAU

macrumors G3
Feb 13, 2012
8,944
7,106
Perth, Western Australia
Having said all that, isn't Intel still ahead in single-core mobile performance for H-series-type processors?

AMD is in-line with single core performance now (with Zen2 cores) at lower clocks and lower power.

Also, you may want to look at the base-clock of the new intel mobile parts... they're very low.

Time will tell, right now there's a lot of intel smoke and mirrors but they simply don't have anything interesting to sell right now. And Zen3 based parts are due before the end of 2020.

Ouch.
 
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theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,710
2,812
AMD is in-line with single core performance now (with Zen2 cores) at lower clocks and lower power.
Just to clarify, you're saying that the single-core performance of AMD's top mobile processor (would that be the Ryzen 7 4800H?) is in line with that of the i9 9980HK? Can you reference any reliable independent sites (e.g. anandtech.com, notebookcheck.net, etc.) that demonstrate this (preferably real-world as well as synthetic)? I checked notebookcheck.net, and they don't seem to have benchmarked the AMD yet:

Screen Shot 2020-01-12 at 7.36.59 PM.png
 
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cube

Suspended
May 10, 2004
17,011
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Just to clarify, you're saying that the single-core performance of AMD's top mobile processor is in line with that of the i9 9980HK? Can you reference any independent benchmarks that demonstrate this (preferably real-world as well as synthetic)?
No 4000 laptops have been released.

The H slide was 16-thread against 8-thread.
 
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theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,710
2,812
No 4000 laptops have been released.

The H slide was 16-thread against 8-thread.
In that case a fairer comparison would be the Ryzen 7 4800H vs. the top Comet Lake H-series processor, as both will be released in early 2020.

So then my question for @throAU remains: What is AMD's current fastest mobile processor, and how does its single-core performance compare to that of the i9 9980HK, according to benchmarks from reliable independent sources?
 

cube

Suspended
May 10, 2004
17,011
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In that case a fairer comparison would be the Ryzen 7 4800H vs. the top Comet Lake H-series processor, as both will be released in early 2020.

So then my question for @throAU remains: What is AMD's current fastest mobile processor, and how does its single-core performance compare to that of the i9 9980HK, according to benchmarks from reliable independent sources?
Probably they justify the slide based on price.
 
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