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akash.nu

macrumors G4
May 26, 2016
10,823
16,930
Why am I not surprised?! This is bound to happen as more and more people stay satisfied with the results produced by smartphone cameras.
 

kenoh

macrumors demi-god
Jul 18, 2008
6,506
10,850
Glasgow, UK
If they continue on this path, someone will buy them for the technology and to maintain the existing user base.

I think the challenge they have is that they are late to the prosumer category with the mirror less FF cameras - as good as they are, Sony has got a massive head start and has now kind of set the bar for everyone else. They have the massive R&D and the diverse businesses to de risk cameras.

Similarly Canon and Fuji have divested businesses providing coverage.

Nikon I think are too narrow focussed and this is putting them in the position whereby they live and die by the market dynamics of cameras.

Having just bought a Z6 - and loving it - I hope they can turn it around. I have to admit I finally understand why people are loyal to them as the images from them are wonderful. For years I didn’t realise I might be a Nikon shooter (shut it @Apple fanboy lol). We can only hope they are acquired and protected for long enough to gain market share in mirrorless full frame.

The smartphone situation is a concern but I think it reaches further up the chain.

The more we improve the abilities of the tiny sensor in a phone, that also applies with the APS-C - FF- MF situation I imagine. We can no longer really justify a FF sensor unless we have a specific need that benefits it and that list of needs reduces everyday thanks to sensor tech. MF is dropping in price now and becoming possible for enthusiasts to enter into the market (albeit those more affluent granted). The middle ground will be squeezed as the large sensors are explored to drive perceived value for money spent in IQ. I had never heard of Phase One or Hasselblad when I picked up my first Canon DSLR starter kit from Jessops but I am lusting after a Phase One now thats for sure!

It is an interesting time for cameras and yet another area where technology stands to potentially ruin what is a wonderful hobby/art/business by compressing and commoditising it. Those of us who work in IT suck the joy out of everything in the name of progress..... sorry rambling over....

Short version..... I hope they turn around their fortunes soon. They have 100 years of experience in this game and are the Hoover of cameras. The name Nikon is almost synonymous with photography.
 

mollyc

macrumors 604
Aug 18, 2016
7,807
47,142
yes, I am a Nikon fangirl. I can't imagine shooting anything else. I did shoot Canon for 3-4 years. Sometimes I miss the colors from Canon but the Nikons always just work.

I think they are in better shape than Olympus, which is rumored to go out of business within the next year. Nikon just needs to acknowledge the American/European market and not try to stay so strictly traditional. Remember the uproar of no women photographers in their ambassadors?? What a dumb move.
 

Hazmat401

macrumors 6502
Dec 29, 2017
375
1,037
Delaware County, Pa
You guys think Sony has anything to do with this?... they’re the ones who shook up the market with mirrorless cameras

I believe Canon is also in the same situation....

Since cameras in phones have gotten really really good... there’s less casual people that’s buying DSLR’s/Mirrorless cameras
 

mollyc

macrumors 604
Aug 18, 2016
7,807
47,142
Personally I think Nikon needs a better marketing department. When I was researching the Z system this summer, most articles I read all commented on how poor the AF system was. There were very few articles stating that a firmware update to 2.0 had fixed this and that the current AF system is now nearly on par with the Sonys. The amount of negative articles far outweigh the positive ones. People even today are still reading two year old articles about the AF system which aren't even accurate!

I realize that bloggers and camera sites are not the actual marketing department, but it wouldn't be too hard to entice those people to write updates regarding the 2.0 system.

I also think they made a misstep originally with not including the FTZ adapter, although now I think it almost always comes standard in the kit. They also need to have people using the adapter with the F mount lenses and assure people that it's not a big deal. I thought it would be, I asked others using the system before I did, and they said the adapter was not a big deal....yet for some reason it's a huge mental obstacle when switching. The adapter really is not a big deal.

I love my Z6 far more than any camera I have ever used.
 
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Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
55,262
53,024
Behind the Lens, UK
If they continue on this path, someone will buy them for the technology and to maintain the existing user base.

I think the challenge they have is that they are late to the prosumer category with the mirror less FF cameras - as good as they are, Sony has got a massive head start and has now kind of set the bar for everyone else. They have the massive R&D and the diverse businesses to de risk cameras.

Similarly Canon and Fuji have divested businesses providing coverage.

Nikon I think are too narrow focussed and this is putting them in the position whereby they live and die by the market dynamics of cameras.

Having just bought a Z6 - and loving it - I hope they can turn it around. I have to admit I finally understand why people are loyal to them as the images from them are wonderful. For years I didn’t realise I might be a Nikon shooter (shut it @Apple fanboy lol). We can only hope they are acquired and protected for long enough to gain market share in mirrorless full frame.

The smartphone situation is a concern but I think it reaches further up the chain.

The more we improve the abilities of the tiny sensor in a phone, that also applies with the APS-C - FF- MF situation I imagine. We can no longer really justify a FF sensor unless we have a specific need that benefits it and that list of needs reduces everyday thanks to sensor tech. MF is dropping in price now and becoming possible for enthusiasts to enter into the market (albeit those more affluent granted). The middle ground will be squeezed as the large sensors are explored to drive perceived value for money spent in IQ. I had never heard of Phase One or Hasselblad when I picked up my first Canon DSLR starter kit from Jessops but I am lusting after a Phase One now thats for sure!

It is an interesting time for cameras and yet another area where technology stands to potentially ruin what is a wonderful hobby/art/business by compressing and commoditising it. Those of us who work in IT suck the joy out of everything in the name of progress..... sorry rambling over....

Short version..... I hope they turn around their fortunes soon. They have 100 years of experience in this game and are the Hoover of cameras. The name Nikon is almost synonymous with photography.
That’s like saying “all those years I thought I was a Kia person, then I brought a Porsche and found out they were better!”

Agree someone will buy them.
[automerge]1573649033[/automerge]
Personally I think Nikon needs a better marketing department. When I was researching the Z system this summer, most articles I read all commented on how poor the AF system was. There were very few articles stating that a firmware update to 2.0 had fixed this and that the current AF system is now nearly on par with the Sonys. The amount of negative articles far outweigh the positive ones. People even today are still reading two year old articles about the AF system which aren't even accurate!

I realize that bloggers and camera sites are not the actual marketing department, but it wouldn't be too hard to entice those people to write updates regarding the 2.0 system.

I also think they made a misstep originally with not including the FTZ adapter, although now I think it almost always comes standard in the kit. They also need to have people using the adapter with the F mount lenses and assure people that it's not a big deal. I thought it would be, I asked others using the system before I did, and they said the adapter was not a big deal....yet for some reason it's a huge mental obstacle when switching. The adapter really is not a big deal.

I love my Z6 far more than any camera I have ever used.
Sony’s marketing machine is relentless. Head and shoulders above the rest.
 

r.harris1

macrumors 68020
Feb 20, 2012
2,190
12,628
Denver, Colorado, USA
I agree that Nikon suffers from an exceedingly poor marketing department. Their executive leadership struggles a bit too (1990s (1980s?) calling...) along with their logistical execution (the manufacturing pipeline is bewildering). Oh, and for at least some folks, the customer service is rough (though that's been true for a while).

Right now, there's not a camera from any other manufacturer that I'd trade for my d850. It slices, it dices. Their engineering and camera design teams are great. The Zs are awesome and I'll be adding a Z7 to my arsenal, depending on what Santa thinks of my behavior this year. Too, the files from my previous beloved d300s and now my even more beloved d850 are fantastic to work with and to print.

Sony's marketing department, on the other hand, are absolute masters at managing the message and coupled with decent equipment and owning the sensor market, they are a powerhouse. They know how to pivot, at least more so than Nikon or Canon.

It's going to take some fundamental changes at Nikon to move the needle for them.
 

Darmok N Jalad

macrumors 603
Sep 26, 2017
5,252
45,107
Tanagra (not really)
While I think smartphones are one reason for dedicated camera struggles, I think it’s that it is also the reduced incentive to upgrade. Many technologies have gone this direction, where once the regular meaningful advances cease, customers are less likely to upgrade. PCs followed this path, and now smartphones are there too. You can have a device that’s a few years old and still be quite happy with the results.

Hopefully these companies hang on. I’ve seen the Olympus rumor elsewhere, but the m43 camp doesn’t totally buy it. They need to stick around too. Sony and maybe Panasonic have an advantage of being part of much larger corporations, so they should have access to better/cheaper supply chains. Heck, Sony makes sensors for many other companies.
 
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Clix Pix

macrumors Core
Original poster
Apologies that I never added any comments of my own last night -- just put in the link and hit "post reply"! It was getting late.....

Many of us, especially those of "a certain age," were lucky enough to experience what I now think of as "the golden age of DSLR photography." That is, we bought the early Nikon Coolpixes, Sony Mavicas, Canon whatever and other first digital cameras, and then moved into the first digital SLRs. In my case, my first digital camera was indeed the first Coolpix, the 900, and I loved that little thing and moved on through a series of Coolpixes over the next several years. At some point realized that I was pretty much using the digital camera exclusively while my Nikon SLR (The N-90s) and its lenses sat in the armoire unused.....

One day I went to the local camera shop and bought my first digital SLR, the Nikon D70. It was like coming home again to the features I'd missed by not using my SLR. I loved that camera and sure enough, when Nikon brought out the D200, I bought one, and eventually the D3......and added to my lens collection over the years, too.

The mention of reduced incentive to upgrade makes sense to me; at some point for me there weren't enough incentives to upgrade any more, the initial excitement was gone and it almost seemed as though newer camera bodies were ho-hum, more of the same with maybe an additional bell or whistle added so I didn't upgrade. One day a few years ago a photographer friend, another Nikon shooter, came over for some reason and he brought along the new Sony NEX-7 that he'd just gotten. That was my introduction to the world of mirrorless cameras, which immediately intrigued me. I bought my own NEX-7 the following week.

As with Nikon, I have been watching various new Sony camera bodies coming-and-going and again have not upgraded -- yet. Analysis paralysis set in -- do I buy a new Nikon DSLR or do I buy a new Sony mirrorless? Just about the time I'd decide to do something, darned if something else wouldn't come along to make me think, "maybe I'll hold off a little, see what happens...." Nikon did that with their mirrorless Z series and Sony has done it with their additions to their line of full-frame mirrorless Alpha 7 series. I waited to see how Nikon's new Z cameras and new native lenses fared in the hands of actual users. Ditto with Sony's A7III and A7R III. Now both systems have released new camera bodies again -- gee, it seems as though I've been dawdling around an awfully long time!

As Molly mentions, in the beginning there was a lot of commentary about focusing issues with the Z series. There were also some complaints about only one memory card slot. Actually, if I recall correctly, though, the FTZ adapter was included free with the purchase of each of the two models at the time of initial release. Now, yes, I think for the most part it is still included in some kits. That FTZ adapter was a very important "hook" to get people who had many F-mount lenses to at least try one of the new Z cameras since they could also use their own older lenses on them as well. But, yes, there are still people (yours truly included) who hesitate at the idea of having to use an adapter and who prefer to go with native lenses. In my case Nikon has not released a native macro lens yet and so far there isn't mention of one on the roadmap, or at least there wasn't when I last looked.

The economy may have something to do with poor camera and lens sales in general, as there are many people in the US and also in other countries who are struggling financially for various reasons and so really cannot afford to purchase a new camera body or lens(es) and they hang on to what they have already. My hunch is that many who are still actively shooting on a regular basis (hobbyists, enthusiastic amateurs, etc., in addition to of course professionals who make a living with photography) are those who have the money and the time. Some who were already retired at the time DSLRs really became popular are now getting to a point where age is catching up with them and they perhaps physically can no longer handle their beloved DSLRs and heavy lenses and have either shifted to something smaller and lighter-weight or have given up shooting altogether.

It seems pretty clear that smartphones definitely have had an impact on the photo industry. Years ago I was always the one who had a camera at parties and gatherings. When I got my first iPhone, people laughed and snickered at the whole idea of it and assured me that Blackberry still ruled. A few years later I went to a party and sat there smiling in bemused fascination as everyone was running around pulling out their iPhones or other smartphones and snapping away with selfies and pictures of each other, the food, etc. Even I had left my "real" camera at home.

Smartphones have pretty much decimated the P&S segment of the photographic industry. Certainly I have found myself using my iPhone a lot more in the last couple of years than I ever did before. Sure, I can't step out on my deck and fire off shots at the distant ducks or geese and expect closeups, but when I'm at the store or out somewhere and see something interesting, the iPhone is at hand, ready to take that interesting shot..... So, it's easy to see how someone would think, "I don't need a big fancy camera, my iPhone will do just fine!" and if they ever had a P&S at all, which many younger people probably do not, it would be lying in a drawer somewhere.

Today consumers are faced with a lot more options than we had back in the days when it was just a P&S or an SLR or a digital P&S or a DSLR; now we've got m4/3, we've got DSLRs, we've got mirrorless APS-C and Full-Frame cameras, we've got Bridge cameras, even digital Medium Format cameras.... and technology keeps moving us forward into other new dimensions. Mirrorless and m4/3 both offer smaller sizes and weights which may make all the difference for some consumers. Others still need DSLRs for specific types of shooting (wildlife, birds-in-flight, sports), although I think Sony's new A9 II is trying to edge closer and closer to becoming the system of choice even as they are also adding longer-length new lenses as well. Each type of system has its own advantages and disadvantages, and it is up to the consumer to decide what will best fit his or her own photographic desires and needs as well as budget.

It is pretty apparent that Nikon and Canon both made a mistake in entering the mirrorless field so late in the game, having allowed Sony and others to get a real foothold in that particular realm and now they're trying to play catch-up and it might be too late. Over the years several members of NikonCafe have made the jump to mirrorless -- some to Sony's NEX series or Alpha series, while others finally made the jump once Nikon announced their Z series. I've been following comments on there and viewing their images. There have been a few grumbles about the FTZ but not as many as I would have expected. Molly has a point that it probably is just not a big deal.

Another local photographer friend who has been a long-time Canon shooter recently bought one in the new Canon mirrorless R series and he really likes it. I don't think an adapter was required for him to use his older lenses from his earlier Canons but I'm not sure, as the day we went out shooting together he was using new native lenses on his "R" camera. He commented particularly on the smaller body and lighter weight of the new setup, which was important to him and a big factor in his purchase decision over a Canon DSLR.

A friend in another state is considering buying herself a camera, and I have suggested that she look at all the options, do a lot of reading and viewing of images, also think a lot about what she plans to shoot and wants to shoot. The most important thing, though, of course, is that she needs to go to a camera shop and actually handle the cameras, see how each camera body feels in her hands. I've also reminded her that in buying an interchangeable lens camera she's not just buying a camera body, she's buying into an entire system....

None of us has a crystal ball here, but certainly things don't sound good for the photography industry as a whole and for Nikon, Canon and Olympus in particular. That is really sad.

As someone who has been using Nikon cameras and lenses since the early 1990s, I hope that Nikon can turn its bleak financial picture around and that by doing some restructuring and perhaps changing their marketing strategy that they and their cameras will indeed be around for years and years to come......
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
55,262
53,024
Behind the Lens, UK
Apologies that I never added any comments of my own last night -- just put in the link and hit "post reply"! It was getting late.....

Many of us, especially those of "a certain age," were lucky enough to experience what I now think of as "the golden age of DSLR photography." That is, we bought the early Nikon Coolpixes, Sony Mavicas, Canon whatever and other first digital cameras, and then moved into the first digital SLRs. In my case, my first digital camera was indeed the first Coolpix, the 900, and I loved that little thing and moved on through a series of Coolpixes over the next several years. At some point realized that I was pretty much using the digital camera exclusively while my Nikon SLR (The N-90s) and its lenses sat in the armoire unused.....

One day I went to the local camera shop and bought my first digital SLR, the Nikon D70. It was like coming home again to the features I'd missed by not using my SLR. I loved that camera and sure enough, when Nikon brought out the D200, I bought one, and eventually the D3......and added to my lens collection over the years, too.

The mention of reduced incentive to upgrade makes sense to me; at some point for me there weren't enough incentives to upgrade any more, the initial excitement was gone and it almost seemed as though newer camera bodies were ho-hum, more of the same with maybe an additional bell or whistle added so I didn't upgrade. One day a few years ago a photographer friend, another Nikon shooter, came over for some reason and he brought along the new Sony NEX-7 that he'd just gotten. That was my introduction to the world of mirrorless cameras, which immediately intrigued me. I bought my own NEX-7 the following week.

As with Nikon, I have been watching various new Sony camera bodies coming-and-going and again have not upgraded -- yet. Analysis paralysis set in -- do I buy a new Nikon DSLR or do I buy a new Sony mirrorless? Just about the time I'd decide to do something, darned if something else wouldn't come along to make me think, "maybe I'll hold off a little, see what happens...." Nikon did that with their mirrorless Z series and Sony has done it with their additions to their line of full-frame mirrorless Alpha 7 series. I waited to see how Nikon's new Z cameras and new native lenses fared in the hands of actual users. Ditto with Sony's A7III and A7R III. Now both systems have released new camera bodies again -- gee, it seems as though I've been dawdling around an awfully long time!

As Molly mentions, in the beginning there was a lot of commentary about focusing issues with the Z series. There were also some complaints about only one memory card slot. Actually, if I recall correctly, though, the FTZ adapter was included free with the purchase of each of the two models at the time of initial release. Now, yes, I think for the most part it is still included in some kits. That FTZ adapter was a very important "hook" to get people who had many F-mount lenses to at least try one of the new Z cameras since they could also use their own older lenses on them as well. But, yes, there are still people (yours truly included) who hesitate at the idea of having to use an adapter and who prefer to go with native lenses. In my case Nikon has not released a native macro lens yet and so far there isn't mention of one on the roadmap, or at least there wasn't when I last looked.

The economy may have something to do with poor camera and lens sales in general, as there are many people in the US and also in other countries who are struggling financially for various reasons and so really cannot afford to purchase a new camera body or lens(es) and they hang on to what they have already. My hunch is that many who are still actively shooting on a regular basis (hobbyists, enthusiastic amateurs, etc., in addition to of course professionals who make a living with photography) are those who have the money and the time. Some who were already retired at the time DSLRs really became popular are now getting to a point where age is catching up with them and they perhaps physically can no longer handle their beloved DSLRs and heavy lenses and have either shifted to something smaller and lighter-weight or have given up shooting altogether.

It seems pretty clear that smartphones definitely have had an impact on the photo industry. Years ago I was always the one who had a camera at parties and gatherings. When I got my first iPhone, people laughed and snickered at the whole idea of it and assured me that Blackberry still ruled. A few years later I went to a party and sat there smiling in bemused fascination as everyone was running around pulling out their iPhones or other smartphones and snapping away with selfies and pictures of each other, the food, etc. Even I had left my "real" camera at home.

Smartphones have pretty much decimated the P&S segment of the photographic industry. Certainly I have found myself using my iPhone a lot more in the last couple of years than I ever did before. Sure, I can't step out on my deck and fire off shots at the distant ducks or geese and expect closeups, but when I'm at the store or out somewhere and see something interesting, the iPhone is at hand, ready to take that interesting shot..... So, it's easy to see how someone would think, "I don't need a big fancy camera, my iPhone will do just fine!" and if they ever had a P&S at all, which many younger people probably do not, it would be lying in a drawer somewhere.

Today consumers are faced with a lot more options than we had back in the days when it was just a P&S or an SLR or a digital P&S or a DSLR; now we've got m4/3, we've got DSLRs, we've got mirrorless APS-C and Full-Frame cameras, we've got Bridge cameras, even digital Medium Format cameras.... and technology keeps moving us forward into other new dimensions. Mirrorless and m4/3 both offer smaller sizes and weights which may make all the difference for some consumers. Others still need DSLRs for specific types of shooting (wildlife, birds-in-flight, sports), although I think Sony's new A9 II is trying to edge closer and closer to becoming the system of choice even as they are also adding longer-length new lenses as well. Each type of system has its own advantages and disadvantages, and it is up to the consumer to decide what will best fit his or her own photographic desires and needs as well as budget.

It is pretty apparent that Nikon and Canon both made a mistake in entering the mirrorless field so late in the game, having allowed Sony and others to get a real foothold in that particular realm and now they're trying to play catch-up and it might be too late. Over the years several members of NikonCafe have made the jump to mirrorless -- some to Sony's NEX series or Alpha series, while others finally made the jump once Nikon announced their Z series. I've been following comments on there and viewing their images. There have been a few grumbles about the FTZ but not as many as I would have expected. Molly has a point that it probably is just not a big deal.

Another local photographer friend who has been a long-time Canon shooter recently bought one in the new Canon mirrorless R series and he really likes it. I don't think an adapter was required for him to use his older lenses from his earlier Canons but I'm not sure, as the day we went out shooting together he was using new native lenses on his "R" camera. He commented particularly on the smaller body and lighter weight of the new setup, which was important to him and a big factor in his purchase decision over a Canon DSLR.

A friend in another state is considering buying herself a camera, and I have suggested that she look at all the options, do a lot of reading and viewing of images, also think a lot about what she plans to shoot and wants to shoot. The most important thing, though, of course, is that she needs to go to a camera shop and actually handle the cameras, see how each camera body feels in her hands. I've also reminded her that in buying an interchangeable lens camera she's not just buying a camera body, she's buying into an entire system....

None of us has a crystal ball here, but certainly things don't sound good for the photography industry as a whole and for Nikon, Canon and Olympus in particular. That is really sad.

As someone who has been using Nikon cameras and lenses since the early 1990s, I hope that Nikon can turn its bleak financial picture around and that by doing some restructuring and perhaps changing their marketing strategy that they and their cameras will indeed be around for years and years to come......
I find each iPhone I buy there are less and less reasons it’s better (in the real world) than my previous one.

More so with DSLR’s. In the early days there was a massive difference from your old one to the newer model. Now half the new features are things you’ll probably never use.

How often do you look at a photo in the POTD thread and think that was shot with a particular camera?
If the image is good then it doesn’t really matter what was used.
 
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Clix Pix

macrumors Core
Original poster
I find each iPhone I buy there are less and less reasons it’s better (in the real world) than my previous one.

More so with DSLR’s. In the early days there was a massive difference from your old one to the newer model. Now half the new features are things you’ll probably never use.

How often do you look at a photo in the POTD thread and think that was shot with a particular camera?
If the image is good then it doesn’t really matter what was used.


Definitely each iPhone I've had (since the very first-generation one) has had improvements in various features, some years and some features and functionality more significant than in other years. Some years the upgrade seems definitely more incremental than in other years. A lot, too, depends upon the new features and if they are something the prospective purchaser has been lusting after.

DSLRs -- indeed, in those golden days when DSLRs were first really taking hold in the photography universe, each new release of a camera body was exciting because they had made leaps and bounds in the technology and the features they were offering..... Eventually, though, that indeed did begin to taper off and, yes, many new features in all the cameras currently on offer are things one won't use. Some features appeal to photographers who do certain types of photography while for another photographer who shoots different subjects, they don't matter at all. Setting up a new camera and going through each and every menu item can be a challenge when the user doesn't even know what a particular feature or function is supposed to do!

AFB, you are so right that if the image is good then it doesn't really matter what was used and we've seen some wonderful images from people using all kinds of gear, from iPhones to medium format!
 

Clix Pix

macrumors Core
Original poster
That's a good point, Molly -- probably because as photographers we know the limitations of certain gear, whether it be a camera or a lens. We know that one is most likely not going to get an outstanding wall-hanger of a shot with an iPhone, but that they could well indeed, depending upon their skills and choices of camera body and lens..... Of course, something that is blown up into a 36" canvas and hung on the wall requires a lens with significantly more resolution than is available in an iPhone or other smartphone.

That said, when posting something on a website or forum such as this one, where images are viewed on screens of all sizes from smartphones to large monitors, for both photographer and viewer the focus shifts from extensive resolution more to the composition, technical skills in selecting the right exposure, shutter speed and aperture, etc., that even on a device such as an iPhone an image looks pretty good even with fairly limited resolution and when viewed on a computer or smartphone.

It really boils down to technical skills and knowledge plus instinctive artistic ability and creativity. Some people can take lousy photos on a high-end top of the line pro-level camera with a $12,000 lens and some people can take surprisingly interesting and good photos with a smartphone.....
 

deep diver

macrumors 68030
Jan 17, 2008
2,694
4,473
Philadelphia.
I think there might be an parallel in this to IBM. IBM had effectively defined the office business machine market for decades. There were always other players but they were the undisputed leader. They got so bogged down in their vision and business model that they were not nimble enough to recognize where the market was going once desktop computers became a reality. In fact, Microsoft became what it is because IBM thought the money would always be in the hardware while Gates knew it would be in the software. I have to wonder if Canon and Nikon are too stuck in their roles in the DSLR industry that they were not nimble enough to see a different directions and now they are running to catch up.
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
55,262
53,024
Behind the Lens, UK
The gear may not matter to the viewer but it very often does to the photographer.
Indeed. I never enjoy using my iPhone for photography in the way I do my DSLR. Just feels clunky and less intuitive.
A touchscreen is not my idea of an interface I want to use. Give me a viewfinder, physical buttons and a range of manual settings and I’m much more comfortable.
[automerge]1573685125[/automerge]
I think there might be an parallel in this to IBM. IBM had effectively defined the office business machine market for decades. There were always other players but they were the undisputed leader. They got so bogged down in their vision and business model that they were not nimble enough to recognize where the market was going once desktop computers became a reality. In fact, Microsoft became what it is because IBM thought the money would always be in the hardware while Gates knew it would be in the software. I have to wonder if Canon and Nikon are too stuck in their roles in the DSLR industry that they were not nimble enough to see a different directions and now they are running to catch up.
Or Kodak.
 
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Strider64

macrumors 65816
Dec 1, 2015
1,370
10,920
Suburb of Detroit
I love doing Birds-in-Flight (BIF) photography and some macro photography, so a smartphone for that kind of photography is for the most part out of the picture. Yes, you can do some good macro work with a smartphone, but to do truly amazing macro photography you need a DSLR or Mirrorless camera of some sort. As for telephoto? I can't see a honking lens on a smartphone that could match that of a DSLR/Mirrorless camera. Even if you could put a lens on a smartphone that reaches the sensor size is just too small. I am a Sony person (A7RIII & A9), but I hope Nikon doesn't go belly up as competition is good for everyone. Beside Nikon's Z6 & Z7 cameras are pretty good for 1st Generation cameras and Nikon could give Sony a run for its money in a couple of years. Even now Sony is feeling the heat from Nikon and Canon (that's if Canon stops doing the cripplehammer on their mirrorless cameras). I am not a Sony Fanboy even though that is what I shoot. Just like I'm not an Apple fanboy even though I solely use Apple products. I have a nice workflow now using Sony and Apple for my photography and what little video I have been doing lately. I tried using a Google Pixel 2 phone, but while it was a nice smartphone the play nice factor wasn't there when it came to using it my Apple components I'm lazy, so I don't want to convert or have to use a certain application first in order to use my Google Pixel 2 with my iMac. Just my .02 cents
 
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Clix Pix

macrumors Core
Original poster
Yes, it is pretty clear now that way back when, to their detriment IBM made a serious misstep and also at a different time Kodak did as well..... Well, IBM survived because they had other things going on and could hastily offload their computer hardware division, but within Kodak, well, it seems that the company is still struggling and has not been able to regain a foothold in today's current photography industry? That's sad, really, as Kodak was a leader in the early days and for many years following, of consumer-focused photography.

The bottom line here is, regardless of a particular brand name attached to items, yes, for each individual who picks up a camera and wants to explore photography there are now many options. It's just a matter of figuring out what will work out best for one and for his or own personal or company-financed budget......
 
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Ledgem

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I think they are in better shape than Olympus, which is rumored to go out of business within the next year.
I've been an Olympus shooter for a bit over a decade. Their photography division's financial results are poor more often than not, and the rumor that they'd be going out of business has been going on for almost as long as I've been shooting with them. They're not going anywhere. Olympus is primarily a medical company, and they claim that the photography division is both a mark of pride and a source of innovation for the medical division. They're still doing well on the medical side of things. When that end begins to suffer is when I'll worry about their camera division. Otherwise, even though the rate of product releases and updates seems to have slowed, they're worlds more active than Pentax (which is sad to say, as I really liked Pentax too).

I agree with others who are saying that Canon and Nikon were just too slow to get into mirrorless. Their initial offerings also felt underwhelming compared with established players. I know many are put off of µ4/3 by what others say about sensor sizes, but that aside, µ4/3 and Sony have full lens ecosystems and strong cameras to offer. Canon and Nikon have adapters so that mirrorless shooters aren't totally out in the cold, but that's more to retain their current user base. If I were buying in today, I'm not sure that I'd want to spend a lot on outdated lens technology.

By comparison, look at Panasonic's foray into "full frame." Strong camera bodies (minus some autofocus missteps in the beginning), and lenses that have received rave reviews (and unfortunately are priced accordingly). They also seem to have a more aggressive release schedule for their camera bodies and lenses.

With worldwide camera sales declining, I think it's inevitable that we're going to see some contraction going on. It's a sad thought.
 

iluvmacs99

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Having worked in the imaging industry for close to 30 years, I had witnessed the forces of contraction and currently most Japanese companies are facing this contraction. Remember what happened to Kodak Inc?!? The once all mighty film company who actually developed the first digital imaging technology in its labs and who went on not to capitalize this invention because it would erode its own lucrative film sales and its own salvation was to become its own demise.

What I had observed in my own life and working with many of these companies is that, the Universe works in both expanding and contracting forces. That is, if an individual is willing to grow, then the expanding forces will assist this individual to grow and develop and establish that growth base for the foreseeable future. We see this with Apple Inc., whereby the contribution by Steve Jobs had made Apple a formidable force in the tech industry and one of the forces for the demise of the camera industry. Smartphones became the cameras that common people use now rather than the point of shoot cameras that companies like Canon and Nikon depended upon on holiday sales wise YOY. This expanding force will continue to work on the individual and company's favor if the individual is willing to continue to grow, to become MORE than the individual or company was and is NOW.

Why then do we have a contracting force acting against the expanding force of the universe? The contracting force is meant to be a feedback mechanism, and that is to tell you that you are NOT innovating and that you have become complacent of the success of your previous accomplishments. The contracting force is meant to take away some of those successes and it can be financial, relationships and attachments and this force is meant to force you or the company to realize that being complacent is not an option. If you realize this force and know that you are loosing your MOJO, or luck, you know that you have to start shaping up and get back on the innovate grow path. Then the contracting force will shift to the more expanding force phase and the growth continues and financial plus relationships with customers will regain their momentum again and flourish.

We saw this with Apple Inc, where they fell in the 90s and Steve Jobs helped them re-discover the new Apple as we know them today. We also saw this with Fuji Inc, which like Kodak was highly dependent on film sales. They went through the same challenges as Kodak, but unlike Kodak, Fuji re-discovered themselves into a new entity and is doing just fine today with their line of cameras.

The thing I see with Canon, Nikon, Olympus and Pentax are that, they are continuing their old ways of doing business, thinking that by doing the same things differently, they would expect different results. Well like Einstein said -- doing the same thing and expect different results is total insanity! And that is what Nikon is facing now.

So what Nikon and all the rest of the bygone companies like Atari, Wang, Kodak, Commodore etc are companies run by people who simply refuse to innovate and grow and think that by trying to bring back the past, they can somehow survive and live forever. Only in Japan that you can do that, but in the West companies like you see in Japan would had experienced Chapter 11 bankruptcy long ago.
 
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Apple fanboy

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Having worked in the imaging industry for close to 30 years, I had witnessed the forces of contraction and currently most Japanese companies are facing this contraction. Remember what happened to Kodak Inc?!? The once all mighty film company who actually developed the first digital imaging technology in its labs and who went on not to capitalize this invention because it would erode its own lucrative film sales and its own salvation was to become its own demise.

What I had observed in my own life and working with many of these companies is that, the Universe works in both expanding and contracting forces. That is, if an individual is willing to grow, then the expanding forces will assist this individual to grow and develop and establish that growth base for the foreseeable future. We see this with Apple Inc., whereby the contribution by Steve Jobs had made Apple a formidable force in the tech industry and one of the forces for the demise of the camera industry. Smartphones became the cameras that common people use now rather than the point of shoot cameras that companies like Canon and Nikon depended upon on holiday sales wise YOY. This expanding force will continue to work on the individual and company's favor if the individual is willing to continue to grow, to become MORE than the individual or company was and is NOW.

Why then do we have a contracting force acting against the expanding force of the universe? The contracting force is meant to be a feedback mechanism, and that is to tell you that you are NOT innovating and that you have become complacent of the success of your previous accomplishments. The contracting force is meant to take away some of those successes and it can be financial, relationships and attachments and this force is meant to force you or the company to realize that being complacent is not an option. If you realize this force and know that you are loosing your MOJO, or luck, you know that you have to start shaping up and get back on the innovate grow path. Then the contracting force will shift to the more expanding force phase and the growth continues and financial plus relationships with customers will regain their momentum again and flourish.

We saw this with Apple Inc, where they fell in the 90s and Steve Jobs helped them re-discover the new Apple as we know them today. We also saw this with Fuji Inc, which like Kodak was highly dependent on film sales. They went through the same challenges as Kodak, but unlike Kodak, Fuji re-discovered themselves into a new entity and is doing just fine today with their line of cameras.

The thing I see with Canon, Nikon, Olympus and Pentax are that, they are continuing their old ways of doing business, thinking that by doing the same things differently, they would expect different results. Well like Einstein said -- doing the same thing and expect different results is total insanity! And that is what Nikon is facing now.

So what Nikon and all the rest of the bygone companies like Atari, Wang, Kodak, Commodore etc are companies run by people who simply refuse to innovate and grow and think that by trying to bring back the past, they can somehow survive and live forever. Only in Japan that you can do that, but in the West companies like you see in Japan would had experienced Chapter 11 bankruptcy long ago.
Interesting point. I think it’s interesting Leica and Zeiss have paired up with smartphone manufacturers.
I wonder if Nikon or Cannon will in the future.

Either way with diminishing numbers I expect to see either a merger or closure from one of them.
 

iluvmacs99

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Interesting point. I think it’s interesting Leica and Zeiss have paired up with smartphone manufacturers.
I wonder if Nikon or Cannon will in the future.

Either way with diminishing numbers I expect to see either a merger or closure from one of them.

Perhaps, but in my observational experience with contracting forces is that, there is that point of no return stage before this contracting forces will basically devour any business entity or personal ambitions of the individual to oblivion (bankruptcy or insolvency). Nikon could had done a new plan 9 years ago, but they didn't and so was Canon. They trucked along listening to shills that doing the same was the only game in town. Or so they thought. Even the strategic decisions both are making now (Canon and Nikon) were based on half-baked conversions. They still wanted to cling to the past and don't realize what's selling. This is the mentality that will eventually erode them. Fuji and Sony made the switch earlier. Olympus made the switch to mirrorless much earlier, but never followed through with much needed greater innovations, other than improvements to earlier innovations through which again was dictated by their mandate and pride -- small is good and was not flexible to navigate the ever changing waters. If Olympus were to offer both m/43 and full frame and have adapters available to allow m/43 lenses to be used on an Olympus full frame, things perhaps might be different for Olympus. But again, so many individuals and companies operate on this archaic vintage mindset -- honor and make the past great again. Those ideals are what the contracting forces will eventually devour completely and the people who are willing to embrace new ideas and not stuck to such vintage ideals will prevail. Which is why Leica and Zeiss are still doing well.
 
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Darmok N Jalad

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I've been an Olympus shooter for a bit over a decade. Their photography division's financial results are poor more often than not, and the rumor that they'd be going out of business has been going on for almost as long as I've been shooting with them. They're not going anywhere. Olympus is primarily a medical company, and they claim that the photography division is both a mark of pride and a source of innovation for the medical division. They're still doing well on the medical side of things. When that end begins to suffer is when I'll worry about their camera division. Otherwise, even though the rate of product releases and updates seems to have slowed, they're worlds more active than Pentax (which is sad to say, as I really liked Pentax too).

I agree with others who are saying that Canon and Nikon were just too slow to get into mirrorless. Their initial offerings also felt underwhelming compared with established players. I know many are put off of µ4/3 by what others say about sensor sizes, but that aside, µ4/3 and Sony have full lens ecosystems and strong cameras to offer. Canon and Nikon have adapters so that mirrorless shooters aren't totally out in the cold, but that's more to retain their current user base. If I were buying in today, I'm not sure that I'd want to spend a lot on outdated lens technology.

By comparison, look at Panasonic's foray into "full frame." Strong camera bodies (minus some autofocus missteps in the beginning), and lenses that have received rave reviews (and unfortunately are priced accordingly). They also seem to have a more aggressive release schedule for their camera bodies and lenses.

With worldwide camera sales declining, I think it's inevitable that we're going to see some contraction going on. It's a sad thought.
I didn’t realize Oly was heavy into medical. If that is the case, they have a viable market to keep them going. Margins are likely very good on medical equipment.
 

Ledgem

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Olympus made the switch to mirrorless much earlier, but never followed through with much needed greater innovations, other than improvements to earlier innovations through which again was dictated by their mandate and pride -- small is good and was not flexible to navigate the ever changing waters. If Olympus were to offer both m/43 and full frame and have adapters available to allow m/43 lenses to be used on an Olympus full frame, things perhaps might be different for Olympus. But again, so many individuals and companies operate on this archaic vintage mindset -- honor and make the past great again.
I'm going to reveal bias as an Olympus fanboy with this post, I guess, but I don't think that what you wrote is fair to Olympus.

Olympus was always about trying to be smaller and lighter (not just with 35mm film, but the Pen "half frame" film camera line was unique), but I don't view that as operating by an "archaic vintage mindset." 4/3 film wasn't a replica of half-frame; they claim that they specifically looked at photographer's needs and chose the dimensions that fit it best. The rest of the industry partly went after "full frame," which is really just sticking with vintage 35mm film dimensions, and APS-C. When sensor fabrication became better, "full frame" became a force of its own and APS-C became this awkward entry-level position for most camera companies. (Canon should get some credit for experimenting with APS-H, so I'll acknowledge that.)

The problem for Olympus is that there were a bunch of trends that occurred that they probably could not have foreseen. For example, the craze over shallow DoF was seemingly brought about by people viewing images on small screens, where the DoF appears greater; previously, I've heard from many film photographers that most were trying to achieve a greater DoF when possible. The fact that anyone could take a photo with a point-and-shoot, coupled with their popularity, meant that photos with a shallow DoF also really stood out and appeared more "professional" by comparison. Another problem was differences in sensor development rates. Again, going by film standards, 4/3 and µ4/3 weren't bad at all for ISO sensitivity, megapixel count, and overall image parameters. Yet the marketing and overall consensus for larger sensors meant that they received more development focus. The smaller size posed a technical challenge, but 4/3 always seemed to receive less focus on the sensor development front as well.

Olympus has been a major, major innovator in the photography field. When all other companies were going with optical image stabilization, Olympus was doing in-body image stabilization. (The irony is that now most companies are implementing IBIS as well, while Olympus is implementing OIS in some of its lenses... but Olympus is still one of the few to use both in tandem for even greater stabilization.) Olympus was one of the first to use its IBIS mechanism creatively to increase the resolution of its photos, such that in its second iteration, your 20 megapixel camera can take 50 megapixel files hand-held or 80 megapixel files if externally stabilized. They were one of the first (and possibly still the only?) ones to implement low-light modes such that the EVF refresh rate slows down to enable "night vision;" they are one of the only to enable burst shooting such that the camera writes files at 18 fps or 60 fps (depending on the mode) in the second around when you actually push a button. They were one of the first to implement intelligent autofocus modes, having the camera recognize objects besides faces in the scene. They're implementing computational photography as much as they can, while retaining the standard camera form factor. (Although even then, if you look up the Olympus Air you'll see that they experimented with completely changing what a camera could look like. The Air was essentially a lens mount, sensor, and wireless communication unit that used your phone for control and viewfinder functions. It must not have sold well, as it never received an update.)

Following what everyone else does and just making another me-too 35mm ("full frame") system would have really been throwing in the towel. In addition to giving up their overall ideology they'd have almost nothing to distinguish themselves by; little innovation to offer the field. µ4/3 would not cover the image circle of a "full frame" sensor, so they'd also need to completely start from scratch with their lens ecosystem (unless they joined another manufacturer's lens mount).

Olympus was all I knew until a few months ago, when I added a Fujifilm GFX 50S ("medium format") camera to my bag. I think I took Olympus' features and innovation for granted, until I saw just how much the Fujifilm was lacking by comparison. Sure, the larger sensor produces files that are a joy to edit and that offer a little something extra, but my Olympus cameras aren't put to shame and I still use them heavily. Depth of field can go more shallow on the larger sensor, but the range of DoF that I can choose from on the Olympus is greater, and the angle of view changes much more per millimeter of focal length on the 4/3 sensor, too. Seeing that made me really appreciate just how right Olympus was when they chose to design the 4/3 sensor the way that they did. It's just a shame that it never received much attention in sensor development, and that so many people immediately bought into the "bigger = better" concept for sensor sizes. (All that said, if Olympus ever decided to get into the medium format field, I'd probably sell my Fujifilm and replace it with what ever Olympus offered. Alas, there was a rumor about this that they directly addressed and quashed some time ago...)

So... give the company some credit.
 
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