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newellj

macrumors G3
Oct 15, 2014
8,127
3,030
East of Eden
I wonder why nobody freaked out about this in the 80s and 90s when analog cellphones were transmitting an entire watt or more ERP, yet nobody got hurt by that. Modern phones put out a tiny fraction of that, and people are freaking out.

I'm so tired of this excessive paranoia.

As an historical footnote, one of my early phones in the 1980s was a Motorola 3 watt bag phone with a large lead acid battery and a +/- 12" antenna. Even with the scarcity of towers in those days, I have never had a cellphone that got better reception. Back on topic, it was of course not used at distances commonly measured in millimeters.
 

BootsWalking

macrumors 68020
Feb 1, 2014
2,268
14,188
Apple keeps using it as an excuse. From this article:

Apple disputed the results and in a statement, said that the testing was inaccurate "due to the test setup not being in accordance with procedures necessary to properly assess the ‌iPhone‌ models."
 
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Saturn007

macrumors 65816
Jul 18, 2010
1,449
1,316
“the ‌iPhone 8‌ was "five times more than the federal exposure limit."

vs.

“The independent results confirm that RF radiation levels are well over the federal exposure limit, sometimes exceeding it by 500 percent”



Wait! What?!

If the iPhone 8 spews 5x the limit, that would be an excess of 400% — not 500%.

Think about it!

If the limit is 100 and the iPhone spews put 500, that's 5 times the limit, but only 400 or 400% in excess of it.

The lawyers need to hire a middle school math student to check their work!

——————————

A separate issue. Is the RF issue a problem only when the cellular is ON? How about when ONLY WiFi is on? How about if both are OFF?

I'm curious because we use old iPhone 4's for late night reading; no WiFi or cell service being on. Does that mean no RF emission? Or, do theniphones themselves emit some, anyway?
 

uller6

macrumors 65816
May 14, 2010
1,040
1,680
A separate issue. Is the RF issue a problem only when the cellular is ON? How about when ONLY WiFi is on? How about if both are OFF?

I'm curious because we use old iPhone 4's for late night reading; no WiFi or cell service being on. Does that mean no RF emission? Or, do theniphones themselves emit some, anyway?

The phones shouldn't emit RF when in airplane mode and cellular and Wifi radios are turned off. The phones themselves do produce some RF radiation from operation of the internal circuitry, but they're generally well shielded internally so there is minimal leakage of this internal RF.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,228
23,972
Gotta be in it to win it
Apple keeps using it as an excuse. From this article:

Apple disputed the results and in a statement, said that the testing was inaccurate "due to the test setup not being in accordance with procedures necessary to properly assess the ‌iPhone‌ models."
The exact methodology of the testing is up to the manufacturer based on the expected usage patterns. Someone taking the same phone and testing differently will have different results. Kind of like gas mileage or emission tests.
 
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BootsWalking

macrumors 68020
Feb 1, 2014
2,268
14,188
The exact methodology of the testing is up to the manufacturer based on the expected usage patterns. Someone taking the same phone and testing differently will have different results. Kind of like gas mileage or emission tests.

When have you ever seen someone holding their iPhone 5mm from their ear during a call rather than the phone pressed against their ear?
 

cmaier

Suspended
Jul 25, 2007
25,405
33,471
California
remember when apple said the Mac Pro would launch in the fall..... imagine the radiation from the cheese grater design.
Why would there be “radiation?” What would the source of the radiation be? Why would the cheese grate not be a faraday cage? What are you saying?
[automerge]1575735486[/automerge]
Do you have proof of that?
because you are most probably right, but the entire point here is nobody really knows.
The proof would be all the studies which have found nothing.
 

[AUT] Thomas

macrumors 6502a
Mar 13, 2016
774
972
Graz [Austria]
Let's stick to facts here: Fact is, that phones are not just tested by the FCC. Phones are typically tested by every larger nation and also by private companies. Individually with their own equipment.
I doubt all single on of those laboratories would have failed their job.

As such this just an accusation...
 

Sedulous

macrumors 68030
Dec 10, 2002
2,530
2,577
Uh, not to be snarky, but did you even read my post or the study itself? Your attached screenshot shows the results in mice. As I said, results were equivocal in all mice and in female rats. However, there was a clear association between exposure and cancers in male rats.
I will change my post accordingly.
 

kis

Suspended
Aug 10, 2007
1,702
767
Switzerland
So tired of people freaking out over RF, which is harmless. Reducing RF emission will reduce the performance of the phone since the tower won't be able to receive it as well!

RF radiation is harmless within limits. There are reasons why these limits were set at the respective values. Of course, the limits are well within the safety zone. But these phones seem to exceed the SAR limits not by 10, 20 or 50%. They exceed them by 300-500%, which pushes the rf exposure into areas where harm has definitely been proven.
[automerge]1575738678[/automerge]
So then can we sue the fossil fuel industry for destroying our ozone layer?

no, as the ozone layer is destroyed by chlorofluorocarbon, which has been banned for decades. And yes, if a company still releases chlorofluorocarbon into the atmosphere, you can sue them.

The ozone layer has almost completely recovered, btw.
[automerge]1575738785[/automerge]
Let's stick to facts here: Fact is, that phones are not just tested by the FCC. Phones are typically tested by every larger nation and also by private companies. Individually with their own equipment.
I doubt all single on of those laboratories would have failed their job.

As such this just an accusation...

That is complete nonsense. In the US, phones are tested by the FCC. In most other nations of the world, the phones aren't tested by any independent or government organisation. In order to get a phone certified, it's enough for a manufacturer to submit the results of their own in-house testing.
[automerge]1575739054[/automerge]
If this was truly harmful, there would be a sever uptick in brain cancer. As of yet, there is no anomaly which cannot be explained by people living longer.

Cancers typically take 20-30 years to develop. Smartphones haven't been around for half of that. Older network technologies use lower frequencies that are much less prone to causing cell damage. Of course, modern phones, as long as they're within the safety zone of a max SAR of 1.6 (or slightly over) don't seem to be harmful either. But if the accusations are right, we're talking 300-500% more, which pushes the phones into exposure levels that have well been documented as heating cells to over the breakage point of membranes, thus causing long-term damage.
 
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kis

Suspended
Aug 10, 2007
1,702
767
Switzerland
I’m going to start a class action lawsuit against Yankee Candle because their candles radiate high frequency electromagnetic radiation.

high frequency, very, very low intensity. Higher intensity wavelengths of light (such as UVA, UVB etc.) have been proven to cause cancer, as the US's 97'000 new cases of melanoma in 2019 prove. If your Yankee Candle emits UVA und UVB radiation, you might have to check whether it's not a Chinese knock-off.
 

SemperMac

macrumors member
FINALLY, ABOUT TIME - WAY TO GO!!!

Don't know how many times (being an Apple shareholder plus Apple user since 1988) I have asked Apple to make sure that they will also focus on becoming no. 1 on the field of low-EMF radiation from iPhones, etc. - I never got a serious reply from them! Here's hoping this will make them react and maybe also create headsets like the EMF-free one from DEFENDER SHIELD:
https://www.defendershield.com/headphones
 

Tech198

Cancelled
Mar 21, 2011
15,915
2,151
"They conducted their tests wrong." However the flip side could just true as well...

"Apple did exceed the requirements but the FCC can't certify that"

(That would be kinda dumb. That could also just mean many more phones have done the same)
 

Gasu E.

macrumors 603
Mar 20, 2004
5,033
3,150
Not far from Boston, MA.
I dont know about the rest of you, but the only time it's as close 5mm from my body it's in my pocket. When I use it, 90% of the time when I'm using it, it's 300 mm or more away, as I'm either looking at it, or talking on speaker. If I do have it up to my ear, at most the top of the phone is brushing the top of my ear, but most of the phone is easily 10mm away from my body, other than the hand that's holding it. Does anyone actually smash the entire phone up to their face? I'm genuinely curious if people actually use it that way.
 

C DM

macrumors Sandy Bridge
Oct 17, 2011
51,390
19,458
RF radiation is harmless within limits. There are reasons why these limits were set at the respective values. Of course, the limits are well within the safety zone. But these phones seem to exceed the SAR limits not by 10, 20 or 50%. They exceed them by 300-500%, which pushes the rf exposure into areas where harm has definitely been proven.
Given all the discussions in threads like this one, what is that definite proof?
 

code-m

macrumors 68040
Apr 13, 2006
3,638
3,398
Having done quite a bit of EMC testing in my time, it is the manufacturer that typically specifies the software and test set up on the transmitter side - the FCC does not check the code that sets, for example, power backoff.


Sounds like the FCC needs to get they act together, a government body cannot simply rubber stamp submissions without proper testing at the end of the day it is they credibility and validity no the line.

I suspect this is different to what VW did with its emission scandal. Is Apple and Samsung circumventing the tests outlined by the FCC don't know all the details. Are other phone manufacturers complying with the FCC standard or have they been tested by independent labs. Or is this just picking on the larger two phone manufacturers.

Not taking sides, seriously would like to know.
 

Sedulous

macrumors 68030
Dec 10, 2002
2,530
2,577
In end the lawsuit has a long way to prove 1: Phones exceed limits and 2: Those exceeded limits cause harm.
 
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jimbobb24

macrumors 68040
Jun 6, 2005
3,343
5,355
Radio frequency radiation. Wow. Sounds scary. I mean...it sounds scary if you don’t the most basic radiobiology.
 

AlexGraphicD

Suspended
Oct 26, 2015
368
309
New York
So tired of people freaking out over RF, which is harmless. Reducing RF emission will reduce the performance of the phone since the tower won't be able to receive it as well!

So tired of people being so addicted to their electronic devices that cannot accept the possibility or facts in this case that these devices are affecting our well being.

You know what? We have created such a sad world with addicts staring our screens almost all day that even if there was a unanimous science based evidence that cellphones and WiFi are killing us slowly, we would still be glued to our screens and wouldn’t change our ways.
 

Analog Kid

macrumors G3
Mar 4, 2003
8,871
11,411
Radiation can cause tissue damage either through heating or ionizing. Clearly, RF is non-ionizing. So then the issue is whether or not some amount of RF is capable of heating tissue enough to damage it or precipitate some chemical reaction. In order for that to happen the RF needs to be strong enough to overcome the capacity of the tissue to dissipate heat. Most tissue is water based (humans are 60% water) which dissipates heat extremely rapidly -- apart from certain resonant frequencies associated with water molecules. An iPhone simply isn't blasting anywhere near enough RF energy to heat up a human cell or overcome that cell's ability to dissipate heat. Increase the power of the iPhone by 10,000 or 100,000 and then maybe there would be an issue.
While it is interesting to discuss the finer points of UV (and thank you for linking information; UV-B/C is considered the margin of ionizing), really the question is whether RF can be dangerous at the amplitudes used by mobile phones. At this wavelength certainly not by breaking molecular bonds. I am also not aware of any significant absorption by organic materials (although I know little about 5G spectrum). Or put another way, a microwave oven is tuned specifically to the frequency absorbed by water and most microwaves output at around 1000W. Even if the phone were to pour all of its energy into a single “blast”, the resulting transmission power would be about 1-2 W... and not at a frequency known to be well absorbed by the body. Even if this transmission power could be maintained longer than that, it simply is not enough to add enough energy to significantly change any chemistry in the body.
First, microwave ovens are not tuned to water. They're tuned to an ISM (industrial, scientific, medical) band that the FCC allows for high power use:
https://www.wtamu.edu/~cbaird/sq/20...icrowaves-in-a-microwave-oven-tuned-to-water/

Commercial microwave driers are often tuned to other frequencies:
https://www.sairem.com/microwave-ra...rying/microwave-rf-drying-industrial-process/

Which are also typically ISM bands:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISM_band

Microwave ovens work by dielectric heating. Water is an electrically polarized molecule that will align itself with an electric field. If that field is inverted, the molecule tries to flip, and then again, and then again. That vibration heats the molecules. It doesn't matter what the frequency is, it's the back and forth motion that creates the heat. Other polarized molecules will heat too, but water is present in most food so it tends to be what heats the food.

So saying that tissue being water based means that it dissipates heat is exactly backwards. It's the water that's being heated.

Water questions aside, heat dissipation is a critical factor. The limits are set with specific tissues-- the eyes and testes-- in mind because those have the least blood flow and thus dissipate the least heat (not because of the water, but because of the lack of circulation):
https://www.fcc.gov/engineering-tec...ision/radio-frequency-safety/faq/rf-safety#Q5


We all seem to agree that holding an open microwave oven against our heads is bad. So there is some safety limit. The question then is where should that limit be? Less than 1000W is a start.

The FCC SAR limit is 1.6W/kg for us common folk:
https://transition.fcc.gov/bureaus/oet/info/documents/bulletins/oet65/oet65c.pdf

That limit is based on finding in an ANSI guideline that suggested a limit of 4W/kg as a safety margin for the general population but accepting 20W/kg for "controlled environments" (basically professionals exposed as part of their work):
http://emfguide.itu.int/pdfs/C95.1-2005.pdf

This is why I'm not too worried about the levels shown in the newspaper report-- the FCC numbers are conservative enough that minor violations probably aren't an issue. The FCC numbers are also averaged over 30min, which isn't my normal use case. Still, shipping a product that isn't compliant with the law should be taken seriously and saying I'm not very worried about iPhones is very different from saying RF is harmless.

The FCC specifies their limits as averaged over 1g of tissue because they're not really concerned with your phone heating up your whole body, but are worried about it heating up certain very sensitive tissues.


Finally, there seems to be the constant confusion of near fields and far fields. When the phone is pressed to the ear, the far fields are present, but there's also near fields which can potentially be much more intense:
https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electri...s-spring-2009/readings/MIT6_013S09_chap10.pdf

The far field gets stronger as you get closer to the source as a function of 1/(r^2) (essentially the product of eqs 10.2.8 and 10.2.9 in the above reference). The near field gets stronger as 1/(r^5) (essentially the product of 10.2.15 and 10.2.16). Far from the antenna, the near field barely registers, but close to the antenna it dominates.

Near field shapes are also notoriously difficult to predict and model and they're very sensitive to materials close to the antenna which can lead to hot-spots.

The near field has another interesting characteristic described right after 10.2.16: it's reactive. Transmitted power from the phone is lost and drains the battery whether there is a receiver listening or not. Reactive power won't really be measured at the battery terminals-- the energy is recovered by the antenna each cycle.

All of which is to say that arguments about how much power the radio transmits don't tell you much of anything about the SAR. The SAR is driven by the near field and we don't have any datasheet spec that can tell us what the near field strength is.

So quoting transmit power numbers doesn't indicate anything about the safety of the device.


If Apple and Samsung passed FCC compliance before they shipped, I'm not too worried. Maybe they gamed the system to make the results from their golden test unit look better than a typical production unit, but it would be shocking if they pushed it so far that whatever they're actually producing is dangerous. I think it's better than even odds that the newspaper doesn't understand how to test, but if it turns out they're right then there should be a reckoning. My guess is that will take the form of tighter oversight of testing labs by the FCC for a while. I doubt Apple will lose a lawsuit because they probably followed the letter if not the spirit of the regulations.

Again, none of this supports blanket statements like "RF is harmless". Wireless charging is also RF and in that case the scenario can be very different.
 

tridley68

macrumors 68000
Aug 28, 2014
1,750
2,513
Just another half rate Chicago law firm trying to make a name for themselves by attacking Apple .
 

Gaspode67

macrumors regular
Jul 30, 2008
170
137
Oxon, UK
As someone whose job is EMC testing & has been involved in submitting & testing equipment for the last 25 years, perhaps I can clear up some confusion about who is responsible for what.

1. The FCC (or equivalent in other countries/regions) does not usually perform the testing of a device. They will approve test houses around the globe that manufacturers can use to test their products. Here in the UK, there are a number of Accredited Labs, from companies like UL, TUV, Eurofins etc who do all sorts of EMI testing as well as lots of other services like environmental, mechanical, vibrational, chemical, biological etc. Test reports from these companies are accepted "as is" because they have robust systems & procedures for testing, documentation, etc and all their equipment calibration is traceable back to national & international standard holderslike the NPL (National Physics Laboratory) here in the UK.

2. It is the manufacturer's responsibility to mark the device with the required marks such as FCC, CE, etc. They can "self certify" if they choose. That means if they are confident that their device is compliant without having to take it outside to be formally tested, they can do so. If someone challenges this because they think the device *isn't* compliant, the manufacturer will need to provide proof as to why the device *is* compliant. Sometimes if you know all of the parts within a device & have used them in similar configurations before, it's possible to have a reasonable idea of whether or not something will pbe compliant

3. Some large companies will have their own test lab with the required equipment to do all their own testing. The kit isn't cheap, so the majority of firms who decide to do testing will use the exterior test houses I mentioned in point 1. Quite often you will do a lot of "pre-compliance" work with your own test gear to make sure your trip to the exterior test house isn't going to be a waste of time & money. Pre-compliance test kits are cheaper to buy & it can save a lot of hassle to do pre-compliance on early prototype & pilot run devices to make any changes early in the design cycle.

4. Exterior test houses are the experts at performing EMC testing. HOWEVER they are reliant on the manufacturer telling them what testing wants to be done, in what operating modes, etc. The manufacturer is usually on site during the test to set everything up in the right operating modes during the test, or in case there's a problem with something not meeting the standards. The test house will produce a test report, complete with all the data showing the tests performed, results etc. The manufacturer will then create their own DoC (Declaration of Conformity) for the countries they want to sell into. Importers can then have & use the DoC when they import products into the country for selling.

5. If the customs authority in the country where the device is imported into wants to, they can demand to see all the test documentation or proof as to whether the device is compliant with the standards that apply to that device category (e.g. IT equipment has a certain set of internationally agreed standards they need to conform to, while mobile phones have not only those standards but also others relating to "Intentional emitting devices", 4G 5G etc). The manufacturer is then liable for providing that documentation to the importer. Typically it will be in the form of a Technical Construction File (or TCF for short). A TCF is enough information for someone to manufacture the device itself.

Bottom line is that it is all down to the manufacturer. They can choose to self-certify if they have their own test lab (or feel confident enough that their device is compliant). Typically most manufacturers will do pre-compliance if they can then go to exterior test houses for formal testing. The Test House will do the testing under the instruction of the manufacturer. They can advise on what testing is required, but they are not responsiblei f the manufacturer chooses only to perform certain tests. All the test house is responsible for is that the results that their test report contains are true and accurate.

Incidentally, there's a few small differences between FCC requirements and a lot of other countries in terms of EMC requirements. The FCC looks at Emissions only (The amount of EM energy emitted from a device), while most other countries/regions also look at a devices Immunity (how much EM energy a device can be subjected to). Domestic-use devices have to meet the tougher Emissions limit (Class B). Non-domestic devices have to meet Class A, which is easier to meet. There's a lot of other tests apart from radiated emissions/immunity. There's also conducted emissions & immunity (EM emitted down the mains & network/telecoms cables), Fast Transient bursts, Static Discharge testing. It's all fun in the Compliance test world!
 

magicMac

macrumors 6502a
Apr 13, 2010
986
415
UK
realistically, with non-ionising radiation such as this, it's not the radiation that causes damage it's just the heat that it can produce at high power levels in confined spaces (like a microwave oven). Unless the phone is warm to touch (from the radiation alone) during a phone call I don't think it's worth worrying about, despite the fact some of the signal is being absorbed by the body (SAR). People have been hurt more by smartphones from looking at them whilst crossing the road.

Nevertheless, we should trust companies like Apple and Samsung when we spend money on them, so I support the investigation and the FCC involvement here in fiddling numbers.
 
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