Liaison subtitle problem

[agregson]

Watching Liaison and subtitles in English for all languages. Checked settings and shows subtitles as automatic and audio track as French original audio track.

I had English and French installed as languages on ATV. English is main language so removed French thinking this was affecting it. Made no difference. It is annoying and oddly distracting to have English subtitles on English dialogue. I set subtitles to French to see what happened and ended up with French subtitles over all dialogue similar to English situation.

I noticed this previously in Now and Then and could not solve it so gave up on the show. Liaison seems decent so keen not to give up on it.

Also tried it with Apple TV app on ipad and iPhone and both have the same issue. Pretty sure it is not limited to Apple TV but cannot see what else I can do.

Apple TV is current 4k 128GB and I am in UK. Latest updates installed. Previous issue with Now and Then was on previous gen Apple TV 4K. ipad is M2 12.9 Pro current version and iPhone is 14 Pro Max. Not yet had a chance to check on imac and MacBook but expect they will be similar.

Has anyone else seen this or have any ideas on how to fix it? I plan to raise the issue with Apple support (have AC+ on ATV as I do on all Apple devices I have) though based on past with Now and Then this will not go far.

Seems very odd … confused

 

[Bluesman74]

To get everything correct you have to keep switching things. Audio seems to start on French, so change to English, need to have subtitles set to auto.

Trouble is that non English dialogue gets dubbed into English. Its a little easier when the country the scene is in matches the original soundtrack, so in England set audio to English, in France set the audio to French. However sometimes a French character is currently in England and then you need to set the audio to French, but I think from the trailer that this character had a relationship with a Brit, and so if they ever speak you would need to know if the majority of the people in the scene were English or French to know which audio to select.

 

[TonyM42]

To get everything correct you have to keep switching things. Audio seems to start on French, so change to English, need to have subtitles set to auto.

Trouble is that non English dialogue gets dubbed into English. Its a little easier when the country the scene is in matches the original soundtrack, so in England set audio to English, in France set the audio to French. However sometimes a French character is currently in England and then you need to set the audio to French, but I think from the trailer that this character had a relationship with a Brit, and so if they ever speak you would need to know if the majority of the people in the scene were English or French to know which audio to select.

What's also bad is that the English subtitles do not correspond exactly with the English audio track. Disconcerting and makes things sometimes difficult to follow.

 

[JupoDupo]

Why cant apple just have an English Forced (aka non english parts subtitles) option like bluray etc has had for years...

Tehran had the exact same issue.

 

[Machaz]

Set audio to French and subtitles to English not auto

 

[Bluesman74]

Set audio to French and subtitles to English not auto

Strange, just did that for Episode 3 and it works perfectly, but if I go back to Episode 2, there's a scene with a father and daughter speaking to each other in the car, who are speaking English, and they get subtitles, repeating the words they are saying in the English subtitles.

In Episode 3, we correctly get English subtitles for the French and Syrian speakers, and then no subtitles when people are speaking English regardless of what country they are in.

 

[Machaz]

Watching Liaison and subtitles in English for all languages. Checked settings and shows subtitles as automatic and audio track as French original audio track.

I had English and French installed as languages on ATV. English is main language so removed French thinking this was affecting it. Made no difference. It is annoying and oddly distracting to have English subtitles on English dialogue. I set subtitles to French to see what happened and ended up with French subtitles over all dialogue similar to English situation.

I noticed this previously in Now and Then and could not solve it so gave up on the show. Liaison seems decent so keen not to give up on it.

Also tried it with Apple TV app on ipad and iPhone and both have the same issue. Pretty sure it is not limited to Apple TV but cannot see what else I can do.

Apple TV is current 4k 128GB and I am in UK. Latest updates installed. Previous issue with Now and Then was on previous gen Apple TV 4K. ipad is M2 12.9 Pro current version and iPhone is 14 Pro Max. Not yet had a chance to check on imac and MacBook but expect they will be similar.

Has anyone else seen this or have any ideas on how to fix it? I plan to raise the issue with Apple support (have AC+ on ATV as I do on all Apple devices I have) though based on past with Now and Then this will not go far.

Seems very odd … confused

It seems they fixed it for episode 3, hopefully it is correct going forward and the retroactively sort out prior releases

 

[JupoDupo]

Thanks, at least I know I am not going mad with ep2.

 

[agregson]

What's also bad is that the English subtitles do not correspond exactly with the English audio track. Disconcerting and makes things sometimes difficult to follow.

That is an issue I found and one of the reasons I wanted to disable it. I raised this on a detailed series of increasingly elevated technical support calls with Apple. Two responses surprised me in emails between various support agents and echoed to me.

(paraphrased)
"The English audio translation for subtitles is an approximate translation of the dialogue and is not word perfect"
"It is expected behaviour that English subtitles will appear over English dialogue when subtitles are automatic and language is original"

Curious. I can (reasonably) understand and read French. In the French dialogue sections it appears to my ear that the same issue befalls the French dialogue. The translation is approximate.

I have tested with BBC iPlayer on mixed Audio and Borgen S4 on Netflix (multiple languages on occasion 3-4 in one scene). Subtitles do not appear in the English audio dialogue sections, even when this is brief. Forcing subtitles the English subtitle follows almost word perfect the dialogue in English. This is what I would expect. iPlayer has same behaviour when run from Apple TV app or directly.

All very strange. I wonder why Apple cannot get this right when others can on the same platform?

 

[agregson]

Over past two weeks I have had a series of technical calls with Apple. These went through several escalations and it was clear it was being taken seriously. I think I have now spent around 5 hours on this on behalf of Apple.

Last week an agent took considerable time to review this over 3 calls in an afternoon. She was able to replicate the issue precisely on her iPad and Apple TV. We went as far as synchronising time positions in Liaison ep2. She saw the same behaviour as I did and could not explain this. It was suggested she would escalate this and come back to me.

Another agent called me back and discussed it. I got what I expected was a fudge. This was from emails at engineering teams in Apple TV (app, box and content departments all separately).

(paraphrased)
"The English audio translation for subtitles is an approximate translation of the dialogue and is not word perfect"
"It is expected behaviour that English subtitles will appear over English dialogue when subtitles are automatic and language is original"

I was advised to go to feedback and submit this. I was surprised. I had spent 5 hours on this and they had clearly documented it.

While on call I mentioned two other persistent issues. These were fudged and I was advised to open more calls. Issue one was the double text in up next within Apple TV app that pops up after a bit. Second was the remote disconnect/range issue on latest 4k after I upgraded from previous gen 4k. Amazingly they advised there was no documented report of this. I mentioned I have seen the issue mentioned many times on forums such as MacRumours. I was assured no issues had been raised and there was no internal report of the issue.

What to make of all of this? I am not sure.

 

[Bluesman74]

Episode 4, is again like Episode 2, in that you need to match the audio language with the same language that the people are speaking in, and again you need subtitles set to auto, rather than English. Otherwise you again get English subtitles on English dialogue.

At the beginning of the episode they now some English text on screen telling you that the original soundtrack is in French and how to select both the audio language and subtitle controls.

No, scratch that, looking at the other episodes, they all have that.

 

[Bluesman74]

Great there is a scene set in France where Alison is speaking to her English father, so they are speaking English, but Gabriel speaks to Alison in French, so of course you're going to be wrong whichever audio language you choose.

 

[Bluesman74]

They also seem to have gone back and processed Episode 3 again, and now it works as well as all the other Episodes, that is to say BADLY!!!

 

[Bluesman74]

Interesting, started watching Dr Brain, a Korean sci-fi series, and noticed that Korean is the language at the top of the list of Audio languages, just like French is the language at the top for Liason.

For Dr Brain, English is next followed by French, whereas for Liason English is listed after French, so it looks like the original soundtrack language is always the first language in the list.

 

[agregson]

Episode 4, is again like Episode 2, in that you need to match the audio language with the same language that the people are speaking in, and again you need subtitles set to auto, rather than English. Otherwise you again get English subtitles on English dialogue.

At the beginning of the episode they now some English text on screen telling you that the original soundtrack is in French and how to select both the audio language and subtitle controls.

No, scratch that, looking at the other episodes, they all have that.

I watched eps 4 yesterday. Issues with subtitles persist. A total pain. At least now the English subtitles seem to be "word perfect" and in-sync with the dialogue. I wonder what the Apple engineer who advised my support agent (and this me) that it was "expected behaviour" that subtitles would approximate the speech? Needless to say I cannot get anyone to return calls or emails relating to the case.

 

[agregson]

Interesting, started watching Dr Brain, a Korean sci-fi series, and noticed that Korean is the language at the top of the list of Audio languages, just like French is the language at the top for Liason.

For Dr Brain, English is next followed by French, whereas for Liason English is listed after French, so it looks like the original soundtrack language is always the first language in the list.

Dr Brain was a decent show. At least with all of the Korean it was "expected behaviour" to have subtitles on all.

What fascinates (aka frustrates) me is they can get this so wrong? Surely an end user would expect subtitles on foreign dialogue? Apple tried to argue a point that as Liaison was listed as original in French this was "expected" with auto subtitles, original language audio and my regional settings. I have French installed on my Apple TV so I switched the whole thing to French. Now with an original French language show on a box in French I still got subtitles on French dialogue. My French is "ok" so I can read and follow most of it but it was very annoying to now have French subtitles especially as eps4 had so much French.

I watched Borgen S4 a while back - many languages including several scenes where Danish, English, Russian and French are inter-mixed. The subtitles were perfect and during even one sentence of English they subtitle was not displayed. Surely this is "expected" behaviour. If Netflix, Prime and BBC can get this right why not Apple?

 

[agregson]

Great there is a scene set in France where Alison is speaking to her English father, so they are speaking English, but Gabriel speaks to Alison in French, so of course you're going to be wrong whichever audio language you choose.

That was quite an interesting scene. Reminded me of one in Borgen where English, Russian and Danish inter-mixed. Needless to say Netflix got it spot on. Come on Apple .... sort it!

 

[Bluesman74]

That was quite an interesting scene. Reminded me of one in Borgen where English, Russian and Danish inter-mixed. Needless to say Netflix got it spot on. Come on Apple .... sort it!

Which episode is that, if you can remember, I'm currently watching season 3.

I don't know why, maybe it's because I didn't watch that particular series when it was first shown on BBC (I watched all previous series's in HD, and refuse to watch SD shows, for some reason that I can't remember whatever BBC HD it was on was temporary only available in SD) now its not grabbing me as much, so I am mostly watching it one episode at a time, when I remembered about it.

 

[agregson]

Which episode is that, if you can remember, I'm currently watching season 3.

I don't know why, maybe it's because I didn't watch that particular series when it was first shown on BBC (I watched all previous series's in HD, and refuse to watch SD shows, for some reason that I can't remember whatever BBC HD it was on was temporary only available in SD) now its not grabbing me as much, so I am mostly watching it one episode at a time, when I remembered about it.

I thought series 4 was very good. I was sceptical when I realised this had been taken over by Netflix. Retention of most of the original cast and style assured me. It was worth watching. It ended very well indeed. I also found S1-3 very good when first watched on the BBC4 nordic set on Saturday evenings - before BBC4 was downgraded to a shadow of what it was. S4 is worth seeking out.

S4 episode 6 is a good example in the scene with the Chinese minister. I just checked the episode and it is around 37 minutes. They are seeking English while the Chinese minster and his aide speak in Chinese and Birgette and her aid speak in Danish. As the languages flick around the subtitles come on and off as needed. Just one sentence in English results in no subtitles (unless they are set to remain on). As the Chinese minister reveals he understands Danish he listens to a question in English (no subtitles) to which he replies in Danish (subtitles). They move between Danish and English during conversation and the subtitling is flawless.

I think S4 has gone again from Netflix - at least it has for me. Worth seeking out if you can. I do agree with SD versions though. HD just seems so normalised now. I don't see a big gain in 2160p over 1080p but there is a big fain from 720p to 1080p. I would be happy to have all in 1080p.

 

[Bluesman74]

I don't see a big gain in 2160p over 1080p but there is a big fain from 720p to 1080p. I would be happy to have all in 1080p.

Yes, I recently got a 4K TV, I'm mostly ignoring 4K content because my Amp despite working perfectly with ARC when it was paired with my Panasonic 50VT30 Plasma, and despite trying it with the exact same audio formats, the LG is doing something funky with the signal, meaning that when set to digital output the Amp just makes chirping noises. So I have sacrificed picture quality for audio quality as I don't want to miss 5.1 Sound.

However today I watched the last 2 episodes of Carnival Row via the TVs prime app, to test the 4K HDR content, and it was only things like flames that looked more impressive. The main thing about HDR seems to be brightness, I had turn off one of the settings because it made the picture blindingly bright.

I have a new Denon Amp on order from Amazon, which I ordered at the end of January, and it still not showing as available for shipping yet.

 

[agregson]

Yes, I recently got a 4K TV, I'm mostly ignoring 4K content because my Amp despite working perfectly with ARC when it was paired with my Panasonic 50VT30 Plasma, and despite trying it with the exact same audio formats, the LG is doing something funky with the signal, meaning that when set to digital output the Amp just makes chirping noises. So I have sacrificed picture quality for audio quality as I don't want to miss 5.1 Sound.

However today I watched the last 2 episodes of Carnival Row via the TVs prime app, to test the 4K HDR content, and it was only things like flames that looked more impressive. The main thing about HDR seems to be brightness, I had turn off one of the settings because it made the picture blindingly bright.

I have a new Denon Amp on order from Amazon, which I ordered at the end of January, and it still not showing as available for shipping yet.

I would agree with you in prioritising audio over video at least when you already have 1080p. I do notice the 4K advantage on certain content - For All mankind worked very well and I did find it better on 2160p.

Seems odd with ARC. The whole idea is it is supposed to be transparent. I have two setups and both use ARC. Also tried ARC with pair of HomePod and works surprisingly well - the Switch and Xbox loved it!

I have two TV setups. One Sony 32" 1080p along with Sony HT-XT1 sound system. This would be my day to day player and almost my goto for TV shows. The HT-XT1 is WAY ahead of a pair of HomePod and is a super sound system for no simplicity. Just sits under the TV, Apple TV connects to TV and XT1 connects via ARC and all just works. Switch goes into the XT1 and easy switching. Apple TV controls all and just works. May be a bit of an old setup but it sounds amazing. The sound stage it creates is very pleasing. Various modes can enhance eq and other settings - game and vocal can be handy and sport is noticeably better on sport. I had looked at a few replacements such as the HomePod with Atmos support but it just could not match it - especially in sub as the XT1 has two down facing subs that are more than enough. As it works so well I just stick with it. Bluetooth playback and a very convincing surround effect in Music on aTV are further wins.

My other setup is Sony 55" 4k. For Sound I have Philips Fidelio sound bar. This can be used in sound bar mode and it sounds more than good enough for most uses. The surround can also be detached and used wireless as rears - wireless and rechargeable so no hassles. When used like that they deliver a very impressive "7.1" effect. The bar is also Atmos enabled so music and content on Apple sound really amazing. Some of the Atmos music is almost creepy. It has a very handy wireless subwoofer that really can perform if asked. As a movie system or certain TV shows such as For All Mankind the combination of screen and sound are incredible. I had looked at a dedicated amp/speaker and even trialed one but it just could not surpass the Philips even before considering all of the wiring hassles. It is used in a fairly large room (8mx8m) and easily fills it beyond comfort level so I cannot complain. For games on Switch, Apple TV and Xbox it is pretty incredible especially with the surround sound. The Apple TV plugs into the sound bar and sound bar to TV via ARC. Switch and xbox connect to TV (they are hidden out of view) and connect to sound bar via ARC.

One last advantage is the use of the wireless surround speakers as standalone BT speakers when they can be used as two separate speakers or a stereo pair and as they are rechargeable can be taken outside or to another room. I have a set of Q-Acoustics Bluetooth active speakers and they really do sound amazing yet the Philips speakers in portable mode can match them. I was impressed by what Philips had done. I have a few HomePod mini and even in a pair they cannot come close to matching the Q or Philips in sound mode. I previously had gen1 HomePod and they were the same - super sound but no match for the Q or Philips.

I know each is a compromise but they sound and look more than enough for my ears and eyes. The total lack of visible cabling and no hassle really impress me. Worth a look if you had not looked at Philips or Sony as I know they are not go to choices for many.

I hope you get the new setup configured and working soon. Which Denon did you go for? Something like the 970? Next problem that presents is speaker choice! When I had AV amps I always liked Monitor Audio for front, centre and sub and maybe bipolar similar for rear surround. My last setup with Pioneer amp was just that with Silver 6 floor stand front and centre and Mordaunt Short bipolar surround. No doubt it was an impressive setup and the sub could have demolished the room given the right track and encouragement.

Definitely hunt out Borgen when you get a chance. Shame BBC don't have it. Spiral is also worth a view.

 

[Bluesman74]

Seems odd with ARC. The whole idea is it is supposed to be transparent. I have two setups and both use ARC. Also tried ARC with pair of HomePod and works surprisingly well - the Switch and Xbox loved it!

The only thing that I can think of is that the LG is using some more efficient packet format that my old Denon does not support, if you read the specs for both the LG and the Denon there's no stated format differences, so in theory it should have worked.

One last advantage is the use of the wireless surround speakers as standalone BT speakers when they can be used as two separate speakers or a stereo pair and as they are rechargeable can be taken outside or to another room. I have a set of Q-Acoustics Bluetooth active speakers and they really do sound amazing yet the Philips speakers in portable mode can match them. I was impressed by what Philips had done. I have a few HomePod mini and even in a pair they cannot come close to matching the Q or Philips in sound mode. I previously had gen1 HomePod and they were the same - super sound but no match for the Q or Philips.

I know each is a compromise but they sound and look more than enough for my ears and eyes. The total lack of visible cabling and no hassle really impress me. Worth a look if you had not looked at Philips or Sony as I know they are not go to choices for many.

I'm a little confused about your audio setup, the Sony seems to be a Soundbar, but you mention wireless rears, but again the Philips seems also to be a Soundbar, you also mention the Q-Acoustics, but you said that the Philips was better.

I hope you get the new setup configured and working soon. Which Denon did you go for? Something like the 970? Next problem that presents is speaker choice!

I live in a flat and so I was going for the cheaper option of the AVR-S750H, but it's been stuck in limbo with Amazon since 2nd January, a few times I've asked for order updates, the first time they gave a supposed date by which it would definitely ship, then when there wasn't a delivery update, I contacted them again and this time they said that they couldn't give a prospective date.

Then this afternoon I searched Google for Denon 7.2 receiver and came across the X1700H. I then Googled X1700H vs S750H 7.2 and came across a Reddit thread with a link comparing the X760H against the X1700H basically indicating that they are basically the same.

Then when I Googled X1700H for buying I found one at Peter Tyson for virtually the same price that Amazon was selling the S750H, so I've cancelled that with Amazon and bought the other from Peter Tyson

Definitely hunt out Borgen when you get a chance. Shame BBC don't have it. Spiral is also worth a view.

Hopefully at some point the BBC will get the fourth.

A few weeks ago I thought about rewatching Spiral, because as you say it's really good, but BBC no longer have it.

 

[Bluesman74]

I think that I was looking at the Q-Acoustic M20 for my home office as my brother when helping me clean out my old flat, came over to my new one and then decided that I needed to pair down my stuff and after moving in I hadn't got round to installing the Subwoofer that is the actual unit that provides the small THX speakers with their sound (and connected to the PC) as it contains the Amp, and so that left me with a soundless office. For the time being I'm getting by with a UE Boom.

 

[agregson]

I would agree with you in prioritising audio over video at least when you already have 1080p. I do notice the 4K advantage on certain content - For All mankind worked very well and I did find it better on 2160p.

Seems odd with ARC. The whole idea is it is supposed to be transparent. I have two setups and both use ARC. Also tried ARC with pair of HomePod and works surprisingly well - the Switch and Xbox loved it!

I have two TV setups. One Sony 32" 1080p along with Sony HT-XT1 sound system. This would be my day to day player and almost my goto for TV shows. The HT-XT1 is WAY ahead of a pair of HomePod and is a super sound system for no simplicity. Just sits under the TV, Apple TV connects to TV and XT1 connects via ARC and all just works. Switch goes into the XT1 and easy switching. Apple TV controls all and just works. May be a bit of an old setup but it sounds amazing. The sound stage it creates is very pleasing. Various modes can enhance eq and other settings - game and vocal can be handy and sport is noticeably better on sport. I had looked at a few replacements such as the HomePod with Atmos support but it just could not match it - especially in sub as the XT1 has two down facing subs that are more than enough. As it works so well I just stick with it. Bluetooth playback and a very convincing surround effect in Music on aTV are further wins.

My other setup is Sony 55" 4k. For Sound I have Philips Fidelio sound bar. This can be used in sound bar mode and it sounds more than good enough for most uses. The surround can also be detached and used wireless as rears - wireless and rechargeable so no hassles. When used like that they deliver a very impressive "7.1" effect. The bar is also Atmos enabled so music and content on Apple sound really amazing. Some of the Atmos music is almost creepy. It has a very handy wireless subwoofer that really can perform if asked. As a movie system or certain TV shows such as For All Mankind the combination of screen and sound are incredible. I had looked at a dedicated amp/speaker and even trialed one but it just could not surpass the Philips even before considering all of the wiring hassles. It is used in a fairly large room (8mx8m) and easily fills it beyond comfort level so I cannot complain. For games on Switch, Apple TV and Xbox it is pretty incredible especially with the surround sound. The Apple TV plugs into the sound bar and sound bar to TV via ARC. Switch and xbox connect to TV (they are hidden out of view) and connect to sound bar via ARC.

One last advantage is the use of the wireless surround speakers as standalone BT speakers when they can be used as two separate speakers or a stereo pair and as they are rechargeable can be taken outside or to another room. I have a set of Q-Acoustics Bluetooth active speakers and they really do sound amazing yet the Philips speakers in portable mode can match them. I was impressed by what Philips had done. I have a few HomePod mini and even in a pair they cannot come close to matching the Q or Philips in sound mode. I previously had gen1 HomePod and they were the same - super sound but no match for the Q or Philips.

I know each is a compromise but they sound and look more than enough for my ears and eyes. The total lack of visible cabling and no hassle really impress me. Worth a look if you had not looked at Philips or Sony as I know they are not go to choices for many.

I hope you get the new setup configured and working soon. Which Denon did you go for? Something like the 970? Next problem that presents is speaker choice! When I had AV amps I always liked Monitor Audio for front, centre and sub and maybe bipolar similar for rear surround. My last setup with Pioneer amp was just that with Silver 6 floor stand front and centre and Mordaunt Short bipolar surround. No doubt it was an impressive setup and the sub could have demolished the room given the right track and encouragement.

Definitely hunt out Borgen when you get a chance. Shame BBC don't have it. Spiral is also worth a view.

 

[agregson]

Sorry for the confusion. I can see now it was a little confusing!

I have two rooms. One I use for daily TV shows and one for movies and games.

The former room has Sony 32" 1080p TV and Sony HT-XT1 sound stage.

The latter room has Sony 65" 2160 4k TV and Philips Fidelio 7.1.2 sound bar with wireless sub. The sound system can be used as a bar with sub and it sounds excellent - more than good enough for most uses. The surround speakers can be detached whereupon they become wireless rear surround. The unit reconfigures to accommodate so it sounds more like a conventional system with partial sound bar creating the front and centre and the rears adding depth.

The rears can also be used as standalone bluetooth speakers which are then battery powered. In this mode the rears can be two single speakers with option to have same audio in both or used with two separate sources. They can also be used as a stereo pair so work like a portable stereo speaker system. In any of the modes they are a very capable sound system for music.

The Q-Acoustics are in my home office. I can connect via BT from iMac or iPhone and they sound amazing for Apple Music or my own CDs via PlexAmp. I also have a NAD CD player which connects via optical or aux for true CD and a Sony BT turntable that connects via analogue and can also connect to adjacent room (Sony XT) via Bluetooth. The Q sound stunning. I had tried a pair of HomePod mini and they came nowhere close so they are now in other rooms as general listening.

I went with these options for compact convenience with as little compromise to sound as I could. I did not want a bunch of wires and hassles yet I did not want to overly compromise the sound. I think these delivered it hence I have kept the despite trying other ideas.

I hope that clarified a little!