Linux which Distro ?

[DaveFromCampbelltown]

Why is this a problem on Linux but not on Windows and MacOS? MacOS/Windows always has the latest and everything is pretty stable. This is very problematic for Linux user to see an app available for Linux but won't run on their specific Linux distro, making it even worse there are 100s of distros so the user is completely lost.

...

There is only one Windows. There is only one macOS. There are this many Linuxen --

Who says professionals do prefer Quark and Indesign? I did not find any market studies?
I know LaTeX is the standard in academia. From my experience there are a lot more users using LaTeX than Quark/Indesign. But that may just be me

LaTeX is a text layout program. Its strengths are in formatting pages of text with occasional diagrams.
QuarkXpress and Indesign are page layout programs. Their strengths are in arranging blocks of text and images.
They are two different types of application solving different problems.

 

[MacBH928]

Actually the quote I made was relating to how fast they update their apps in a distribution and how slowly LTS channels get updated. Most users I've seen detest updates. On the other hand, I've never seen a finished piece of software!

I absolutely totally agree that there's far too much fragmentation in Linux distributions (there are thousands of them) and fragmentation (forking) within apps in a category for there to be "the year of the Linux desktop". No concentration of effort for fit and finish; the developers are too busy trying to finish the planned feature set. Most of them are unpaid volunteers, anyway.

-Don't get me wrong, I too hate updates in mature apps. bug fixes and performance improvements are ok. A lot of software is mature and doesn't any extra features. Take for example 1password, it stores passwords and autofills them, they went ahead added superficial features and bloat to convince people this app is worth a subscription. A lot of updated apps comes with flaws and bugs, and I too prefer a working software than broken one with features nobody cares about.

-Unpaid by volunteers is exactly the problem with FOSS and my original argument. When its paid employees is there is certain expectation and management that drives them to do their best against the competition. When its FOSS and volunteers the general mentality is "Just be glad I even wrote this for you" and I can't blame them, there is also no competition to drive them forward. Its more on the "hobby" side of things.

 

[MacBH928]

Actually, from what I've seen, they test their own distribution and all of the apps available for their distribution in their specific software repository. Most people who are running Linux get their applications from the software repository managed by the developers of their installed distribution. That's why apps don't get updated until the distribution gets updated.

I do not know about everyone else, but isn't this the most inefficient way of releasing software? You seriously will test ALL software released for linux for each distro? Microsoft and Apple do not have to test every software released for their platform, its on the developer of that app meanwhile on the Linux side of things each distro will test all software for linux for each release!? Thats crazy.

 

[MacBH928]

Who says professionals do prefer Quark and Indesign? I did not find any market studies?
I know LaTeX is the standard in academia. From my experience there are a lot more users using LaTeX than Quark/Indesign. But that may just be me

They are multi-million (if not billion) dollar corporations , obviously someone is willing to pay the price of their software over using the free of charge LaTeX

 

[MacBH928]

There is only one Windows. There is only one macOS. There are this many Linuxen --
View attachment 2002263



LaTeX is a text layout program. Its strengths are in formatting pages of text with occasional diagrams.
QuarkXpress and Indesign are page layout programs. Their strengths are in arranging blocks of text and images.
They are two different types of application solving different problems.

-This is exactly why I wish the Linux (or FOSS) community work on standardisation than this crazy mess. Convenience is key. Imagine showing a regular user one Windows and then this map of Linux distros and ask him to make a choice. Add in there, what if all the people working on all these distros would concenterate their efforts in 3 or 4 distros only? imagine how much better and more polished they will be. I mentioned this before, there a Linux called Asahi and its trying to make Linux work on M1 chips and there are like only 3 or 4 people working on it. Wouldn't it be better to work on this instead of creating yet another Arch release or light distro?

There is a reason why some Linux distros exist like a stable release(Debian), a rolling release(Arch), or a light distro for older and simpler computer (Linux Lite). But why do we need 12 light linux distros, and 8 rolling releases, and 20 LTS distros and 7 enterprise Linux?

Its cool when the linux distro is just pre-configured distro with different visuals like one that looks like MacOS9 or one that looks like Windows 11, but it starts to be not cool when software works here and not there or one will boot but will not be able to work the Wifi and second has Wifi but no bluetooth and the third won't even launch at all.

-Why do we I need Latex if I can do the same with text boxes? In Word or Pages I can insert a text box , type whatever I want, and place it any where I want on the page. Much easier than coding it by text. Am i missing something?

 

[DaveFromCampbelltown]

-This is exactly why I wish the Linux (or FOSS) community work on standardisation than this crazy mess. Convenience is key. Imagine showing a regular user one Windows and then this map of Linux distros and ask him to make a choice. Add in there, what if all the people working on all these distros would concenterate their efforts in 3 or 4 distros only? imagine how much better and more polished they will be. I mentioned this before, there a Linux called Asahi and its trying to make Linux work on M1 chips and there are like only 3 or 4 people working on it. Wouldn't it be better to work on this instead of creating yet another Arch release or light distro?

There is a reason why some Linux distros exist like a stable release(Debian), a rolling release(Arch), or a light distro for older and simpler computer (Linux Lite). But why do we need 12 light linux distros, and 8 rolling releases, and 20 LTS distros and 7 enterprise Linux?

Its cool when the linux distro is just pre-configured distro with different visuals like one that looks like MacOS9 or one that looks like Windows 11, but it starts to be not cool when software works here and not there or one will boot but will not be able to work the Wifi and second has Wifi but no bluetooth and the third won't even launch at all.

-Why do we I need Latex if I can do the same with text boxes? In Word or Pages I can insert a text box , type whatever I want, and place it any where I want on the page. Much easier than coding it by text. Am i missing something?

Are you missing something? Yes. LaTeX uses typographic rules that have been set up, modified and improved over the last 800 years (history of printing). Word, Pages, Quark, Indesign don't. They use algorithms the programmers have made up.

Those rules make sure the text is laid out so that it is most readable, with optimal inter-character spacing (kerning), inter-word spacing, hyphenation, line-spacing and paragraph- and page-breaks. The other applications don't.

If you lay out a page of text in Word, and then in LaTeX, with the same page size, font and font size and line length you will see what I mean. Word, particularly, makes inter-character spacing too big and inter-word spacing too little. When I set up a document in Word I will change the main body style to make the inter-character spacing 2~3 points less. It's still not optimal, but it is a bit better than the default settings.

I have used all of these apps, as well as Indesign's predecessor PageMaker. None of them work as well as LaTeX for laying out text on a page. However, they do have their own uses.

 

[MacBH928]

Are you missing something? Yes. LaTeX uses typographic rules that have been set up, modified and improved over the last 800 years (history of printing). Word, Pages, Quark, Indesign don't. They use algorithms the programmers have made up.

Those rules make sure the text is laid out so that it is most readable, with optimal inter-character spacing (kerning), inter-word spacing, hyphenation, line-spacing and paragraph- and page-breaks. The other applications don't.

If you lay out a page of text in Word, and then in LaTeX, with the same page size, font and font size and line length you will see what I mean. Word, particularly, makes inter-character spacing too big and inter-word spacing too little. When I set up a document in Word I will change the main body style to make the inter-character spacing 2~3 points less. It's still not optimal, but it is a bit better than the default settings.

I have used all of these apps, as well as Indesign's predecessor PageMaker. None of them work as well as LaTeX for laying out text on a page. However, they do have their own uses.

this is off topic, but you seem to understand this, do you mind if I ask: do they print books using words processor, a layout app like indesign, or rely on something like LaTex? I am talking about the average paperback book.

 

[DaveFromCampbelltown]

this is off topic, but you seem to understand this, do you mind if I ask: do they print books using words processor, a layout app like indesign, or rely on something like LaTex? I am talking about the average paperback book.

It depends.
For book covers and books that have a lot of images, usually InDesign or equivalent.
Some publishers like Springer-Verlag use LaTeX
Others --

They often have custom computers that their typesetters have used for years. Some still use print on paper typesetting. Some newspapers still use lead line-o-type machines. I mean they invested in them 50 years ago and they still work (NY times stopped using the line-o-type before the 1990s).

Many book publishers still use either film negatives or they burn plates electronically for their WEB presses.

Many publishers still use the WEB press they bought 80 years ago because it works, it can produce a 300 page book and give them 500,000 copies quickly and cheaply.

or

Professional typesetting uses dedicated typesetting/filmsetting systems for output. If it is straightforward typesetting with no page makeup for mechanical (manual) page makeup, [I\ have a Linotronic 202N compositor and filmsetting system in the office.

So, it depends on the type of book and the publisher.

 

[Dariana97]

i would recommend arch linux

 

[bogdanw]

Some fun with distros
https://www.tiktok.com/@openprietary/video/7074776350724279558
Have a nice weekend!
Quick edit: Fedora 36 has been released https://getfedora.org and “Fedora Linux 36 Release Party” https://hopin.com/events/fedora-linux-36-release-party/registration

 

[khikhz144]

Desktop environment wise i would go with either cinnamon or KDE. cinnamon feels simpler and i feel things are organized in a easier way for a causal user plus i like the simpler look . KDE has a-lot more setting and customization but might not be as easy as cinnamon but you'll figure it out

 

[babyexercise]

Any new popular hot distros?

 

[Pilot Jones]

I love using the XFCE version of mxLinux on Mac. Being relatively new to linux myself, I can attest to it being a really fantastic entry point for anyone getting into Linux.

First of all, it's ridiculously light. The entire OS runs super smoothly as a Virtual Machine using just 1 CPU core, 4GB of RAM and an allocated 20GB of storage space (which it has yet to hit) on my 7-year-old 2015 13" Retina MBP. It begins by offering an adequate amount of familiarity to conventional GUIs, but is immensely customisable and can be tweaked to become anything you want.

What also makes it a particularly good stepping point is that while you learn how to execute all these functions using command lines, the OS has extremely convenient built-in solutions for the same so you don't have to work with a half-baked OS in the meantime. It has in-built package installers which can help you bulk download apps, software tweaks and the likes with immense ease.

Also the mxLinux community is quite active so guides and information are always easily accessible.

 

[thering1975]

To be honest anyone looking for a decent Linux distro for their Mac should first checkout the compatibility page on github (laptops mainly) and even then some of that is out of date:

I have literally spent the last 2 weeks testing different distros / DE's and all have issues.

Firstly im more used to using linux in a server environment inc LAMP/LEMP/Docker/Proxmox kind of setups, so im pretty tasty on terminal use and can normally solve most issues

I decided to test a few distros as my 2016 MBP is end of life according to apple updates. The hardware does what i need as my main PC is a hackintosh so that does the heavy lifting.

Now according to the Github compatibility page everything on my 13 inch 2016 MBP should be working except suspend, well that was correct at the time but since distros /packages/kernels have updated it is no longer so.

Distros tested:

Zorrin

This was always my vm distro of choice however as expected the Audio does not work and shows dummy output, I like the Desktop Environment here but moved on and tested this next:

Elementary OS

Could not test this as well the installer has issues seeing the NVME drive and is known by Elementary team who are quick to blame POPOS as they share the same installer, so i tried POPOS next:

PopOS

To be honest i have used this before and dont get what all the fuss is about, anyway thought i would try, and well POPOS installer crashes on this mac at the installation selection screen, so off to try another:

Manjaro

Never been a fan of arch linux, but this looked good, sound did not work as expected so tried something else:

Ubuntu 22.04

Never liked Ubuntu to be fair however here everything worked, i used the Cirrus 8409 sound patch and sure the internal speakers started working, however not as good as sound as when Mac OS is booted.

Now in between these test i kept coming back to one Distro that absolutely flawed me and that was:

Fedora Workstation 36

SO i have finished my setup and tweaks on this distro and i have to say, what a blinder it is, its very fast very fluid very stable. Now the internal speakers are not yet working as the patch needs updating for bleeding edge kernel, but to be honest im not that fussed, it pairs with my BT speaker so that does for home or hotel use, usb c headphones for out an about i.e coffee shop and hdmi audio also works.

But the out of the box experience whilst nice just did not tickle my eyeballs so todays was installing the big sur theme and icons, and then tweaking every aspect with gnome shell extensions to get it to behave how i want

Quite a few under the hood changes were needed as well for example:

OOTB Experience > Rectified with

• Scaling is awful on retina display > Added fractional scaling command to Gnome 42 so i can pick 175% - spot on
• Fans not kicking in > Installed MBPFAN and set conf file to my preferred temp /speed curve means i can do more aggressive cooling
• No OS Blur > Added blur my shell extension to add blur effects to all manner of things
• Various things removed like activities header icons etc > Just Perfection Gnome shell extension
• Places status indicator for quick access to all my mounts / drives /location > Places gnome shell extension
• Wanted system info to be a dropdown on top bar > vitals gnome shell extension
• Wanted a less linux (aka chuck ugly icons at everything) theme so installed Big Sur theme in Light mode with icon pack and blur
• Fonts are rubbish > So installed better fonts and switched to noto font which looks crisp and clean system wide

This solved some of the visual issues i had with Fedora however there were several others that needed rectifying:

Chrome and Edge look god awful

Seriously i thought i was going bline the web rendering was awful as if you were looking at the screen through a fine white piece of fabric, text images were not sharp and just looked odd. Open Firefox and it is as sharp as, however i don't use FF so a solution was needed.

After a few hours i found a little nugget of information. Chrome and Edge have issues with Wayland and Fedora 36 has been at the forefront of utilising wayland.

Chrome > This is an easy fix, open chrome://flags and search for wayland, there will be 2 entries change it to wayland and close, open chrome and it is rendering pin sharp

Edge > Edge removes the flags required to make the change so i had to do the following:

cd /usr/share/applications/
cp microsoft-edge.desktop ~/.local/share/applications
nano cp microsoft-edge.desktop ~/.local/share/applications

Find EXEC line ending %U and change to the following so it looks like this:

Exec=/usr/bin/microsoft-edge-stable --enable-features=UseOzonePlatform --ozone-platform=wayland  %U

Save and exit

Now Edge is also pinsharp and another problem solved

The only other issues was getting a half decent email client, Thunderbird is stuck in the 90's UI wise and an awful experience imho, Mailspring is as bloated as ever so for now settled on BlueMail which seems to do the trick not the most feature laden but then thats a good thing.

Im going to use this for the week and see how i get on but so far im loving it and my MBP has never been this snappy on OSX which became dog slow.

If i get on with it and no major drawbacks appear then i shall be removing OSX fully and expanding the partition to use the whole drive

However and this may pee off the Linux die hards, for newbies dont expect support, i know people harp on about the community but trust me having read hundreds of threads on different forums it always ends up in snobbish behaviour, or random commands which are either outright stupid or dangerous. SO if you going in on linux prepare to keep backups (rsync is your friend here)

Anyways got a few more tweaks to do to the UI to add transparency, gestures are added into the browsers as the system wide gesture plug in played havoc but will test that and then get something like preview for files.

 

[MacBH928]

To be honest anyone looking for a decent Linux distro for their Mac should first checkout the compatibility page on github (laptops mainly) and even then some of that is out of date:

I have literally spent the last 2 weeks testing different distros / DE's and all have issues.

Firstly im more used to using linux in a server environment inc LAMP/LEMP/Docker/Proxmox kind of setups, so im pretty tasty on terminal use and can normally solve most issues

I decided to test a few distros as my 2016 MBP is end of life according to apple updates. The hardware does what i need as my main PC is a hackintosh so that does the heavy lifting.

Now according to the Github compatibility page everything on my 13 inch 2016 MBP should be working except suspend, well that was correct at the time but since distros /packages/kernels have updated it is no longer so.

Distros tested:

Zorrin

This was always my vm distro of choice however as expected the Audio does not work and shows dummy output, I like the Desktop Environment here but moved on and tested this next:

Elementary OS

Could not test this as well the installer has issues seeing the NVME drive and is known by Elementary team who are quick to blame POPOS as they share the same installer, so i tried POPOS next:

PopOS

To be honest i have used this before and dont get what all the fuss is about, anyway thought i would try, and well POPOS installer crashes on this mac at the installation selection screen, so off to try another:

Manjaro

Never been a fan of arch linux, but this looked good, sound did not work as expected so tried something else:

Ubuntu 22.04

Never liked Ubuntu to be fair however here everything worked, i used the Cirrus 8409 sound patch and sure the internal speakers started working, however not as good as sound as when Mac OS is booted.

Now in between these test i kept coming back to one Distro that absolutely flawed me and that was:

Fedora Workstation 36

SO i have finished my setup and tweaks on this distro and i have to say, what a blinder it is, its very fast very fluid very stable. Now the internal speakers are not yet working as the patch needs updating for bleeding edge kernel, but to be honest im not that fussed, it pairs with my BT speaker so that does for home or hotel use, usb c headphones for out an about i.e coffee shop and hdmi audio also works.

But the out of the box experience whilst nice just did not tickle my eyeballs so todays was installing the big sur theme and icons, and then tweaking every aspect with gnome shell extensions to get it to behave how i want

Quite a few under the hood changes were needed as well for example:

OOTB Experience > Rectified with

• Scaling is awful on retina display > Added fractional scaling command to Gnome 42 so i can pick 175% - spot on
• Fans not kicking in > Installed MBPFAN and set conf file to my preferred temp /speed curve means i can do more aggressive cooling
• No OS Blur > Added blur my shell extension to add blur effects to all manner of things
• Various things removed like activities header icons etc > Just Perfection Gnome shell extension
• Places status indicator for quick access to all my mounts / drives /location > Places gnome shell extension
• Wanted system info to be a dropdown on top bar > vitals gnome shell extension
• Wanted a less linux (aka chuck ugly icons at everything) theme so installed Big Sur theme in Light mode with icon pack and blur
• Fonts are rubbish > So installed better fonts and switched to noto font which looks crisp and clean system wide

This solved some of the visual issues i had with Fedora however there were several others that needed rectifying:

Chrome and Edge look god awful

Seriously i thought i was going bline the web rendering was awful as if you were looking at the screen through a fine white piece of fabric, text images were not sharp and just looked odd. Open Firefox and it is as sharp as, however i don't use FF so a solution was needed.

After a few hours i found a little nugget of information. Chrome and Edge have issues with Wayland and Fedora 36 has been at the forefront of utilising wayland.

Chrome > This is an easy fix, open chrome://flags and search for wayland, there will be 2 entries change it to wayland and close, open chrome and it is rendering pin sharp

Edge > Edge removes the flags required to make the change so i had to do the following:

cd /usr/share/applications/
cp microsoft-edge.desktop ~/.local/share/applications
nano cp microsoft-edge.desktop ~/.local/share/applications

Find EXEC line ending %U and change to the following so it looks like this:

Exec=/usr/bin/microsoft-edge-stable --enable-features=UseOzonePlatform --ozone-platform=wayland  %U

Save and exit

Now Edge is also pinsharp and another problem solved

The only other issues was getting a half decent email client, Thunderbird is stuck in the 90's UI wise and an awful experience imho, Mailspring is as bloated as ever so for now settled on BlueMail which seems to do the trick not the most feature laden but then thats a good thing.

Im going to use this for the week and see how i get on but so far im loving it and my MBP has never been this snappy on OSX which became dog slow.

If i get on with it and no major drawbacks appear then i shall be removing OSX fully and expanding the partition to use the whole drive

However and this may pee off the Linux die hards, for newbies dont expect support, i know people harp on about the community but trust me having read hundreds of threads on different forums it always ends up in snobbish behaviour, or random commands which are either outright stupid or dangerous. SO if you going in on linux prepare to keep backups (rsync is your friend here)

Anyways got a few more tweaks to do to the UI to add transparency, gestures are added into the browsers as the system wide gesture plug in played havoc but will test that and then get something like preview for files.

give Mint a shot and tell me if it works

 

[bogdanw]

Goobuntu vs. gLinux

How Google got to rolling Linux releases for Desktops https://cloud.google.com/blog/topic...le-got-to-rolling-linux-releases-for-desktops
"For a long time, our internal facing Linux distribution, Goobuntu, was based off of Ubuntu LTS releases. In 2018 we completed a move to a rolling release model based on Debian."

via ZDNet - Google: Here's how we got to rolling desktop Linux releases after Ubuntu to Debian switch https://www.zdnet.com/article/googl...linux-releases-after-ubuntu-to-debian-switch/

 

[MisterSavage]

Goobuntu vs. gLinux

How Google got to rolling Linux releases for Desktops https://cloud.google.com/blog/topic...le-got-to-rolling-linux-releases-for-desktops
"For a long time, our internal facing Linux distribution, Goobuntu, was based off of Ubuntu LTS releases. In 2018 we completed a move to a rolling release model based on Debian."

via ZDNet - Google: Here's how we got to rolling desktop Linux releases after Ubuntu to Debian switch https://www.zdnet.com/article/googl...linux-releases-after-ubuntu-to-debian-switch/

This is super interesting. Thank you for sharing. I actually dread moving off of an LTS release because it can sometimes be a good deal of pain for what doesn't feel like a big benefit.

 

[MacBH928]

Debian is very interesting...everyone bases off debian for some reason. Hardly any one base of slackware, opensus, or fedora.

 

[AMacisforlife]

I tried MX Linux on a MacBook but I could never desensitise the touchpad enough so had to resort to mice which rather defeated the purpose of installing it. Love it or loath it, Ubuntu nearly always works on Mac hardware though.

 

[bogdanw]

Ars Technica - Linux distro for Apple silicon Macs is already up and running on the brand-new M2 https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/202...s-already-up-and-running-on-the-brand-new-m2/
“The Asahi Linux team put out a new release today with plenty of additions and improvements. Most notably, the distro now supports the M1 Ultra and the Mac Studio and has added preliminary support for the M2 MacBook Pro (which has been tested firsthand by the team) and the M2 MacBook Air (which hasn't been tested but ought to work).”
https://asahilinux.org/2022/07/july-2022-release/

 

[olrik77]

Bonjour,

In your experience, which distro best handles the Apple keyboard (aluminum with numeric keypad, like model A1243).

Many thanks in advance,

Serviteur,

PJN

 

[bogdanw]

In your experience, which distro best handles the Apple keyboard (aluminum with numeric keypad, like model A1243).

I still use an older keyboard (A1048) and I don't remember ever having any trouble in Linux with it. The numeric keypad always worked.

 

[Oculus Mentis]

I have installed Ubuntu server 22.04 on a mid 2011 Mac mini with 8Gb ram and 500Gb ssd and I’m loving it.

It is a headless configuration that sits near my TrueNas, any direct interaction with the OS happens via the CLI over ssh. I’ve installed Docker and Portainet then containers for Plex, Sabnzb, Pihole, Synchthing and VS Code.
It’s incredible how little resources are used and promptly released when not in use on this little now desperately obsolete (by Apple standards) Mac. Even the CPU avg temperature never goes above 66C.

Overall I’m very happy to be able to efficiently run a cutting edge LTS OS on such an old machine. The same efficiency and support against vulnerabilities would not have been possible under Mac OS even for this specific use case, never mind for a desktop one.

 

[bogdanw]

The Register - "We tested all the Ubuntu remixes for resource usage so you don't have to"
https://www.theregister.com/2022/08/18/ubuntu_remixes/

All the remixes use less memory than the default GNOME edition...
All credit to the Lubuntu team: their remix remains the lightest by quite some margin, both in memory and disk usage.

 

[olrik77]

I still use an older keyboard (A1048) and I don't remember ever having any trouble in Linux with it. The numeric keypad always worked.

Thank's bogdanw, I just have a problem with the @ and # keys (not in the right place).
What distro are you running ?

Serviteur,