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Shirasaki

macrumors P6
May 16, 2015
15,746
11,099
So what? If someone runs a heavy workload on an M2 it’ll still work but maybe a bit slower than a computer with a fan. The case will get a bit warm. Why does any of that matter? The M2 Air is still plenty fast enough even if it throttles.

What debacle? The one made up by YouTubers looking for quick hits? I doubt Apple cares.
So what? People keep saying “M2 MacBook Air is for light load and casual user”. I just point out that argument is moot and doesn’t mean anything.

Obviously apple care none about YouTuber reviews. They don’t even care about media pressure. General user is the one being impacted cause they care.
 
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ikir

macrumors 68020
Sep 26, 2007
2,139
2,304
From the evidence I've seen, I believe firmly that people are vastly overhyping the effects of the throttling in the M2 MacBook Air.

The YouTube review I've seen so far with the most thorough benchmarks is Dave2D's, and he went so far as to say that "if you're someone that wants a very powerful system and you're hoping that something super thin and super light could handle it, unfortunately, I would say that it can't." He also spends a good deal of time throughout the rest of the video highlighting the effects of the throttling as he saw them.

That's a rather extreme conclusion to make, from what I'm seeing. I will use his own graphs to demonstrate.

View attachment 2033243

This is Dave's graph of the effects of throttling on the Cinebench score, comparing the M2 MBA to the M2 MBP (which has a fan). There are some important things to note here.

I calculated that a single run on the M2 would last anywhere from 1.5 to 2 minutes, based on its overall score. So 10 consecutive runs would take about 15-20 minutes. Remember, throttling is related to temperature over time, and the effects of it go up as your time under sustained load increases.

Cinebench pegs the CPU at 99-100% utilization on all cores for the duration of the test. So we're talking 15-20 minutes of that. If you've spent any time doing "Pro" workflows, and monitored your system usage, you would know that this amount of load, for that duration, is extremely rare. Even in a video editor, you rarely have a render that would peg the CPU to that degree, for that amount of time. You do also have the GPU cores to consider in that instance, but many renders for many users also would not take 15-20 minutes to complete. At the highest end, sure, with very complex timelines with hefty codecs. But the majority of users who do video work who would buy this machine? No.

On top of that, I think Dave is over-estimating the impact of the throttling. I calculated that on his x axis, each interval represents 562.5 points. So if you look carefully, you see that after 10 consecutive runs, the M2 MBA has dropped about 1125 points.

View attachment 2033247

A drop of 1125 points puts it at about the same performance as M1's maximum performance, and this occurs after 15-20 minutes straight of 100% CPU load. 8783 to 7658.

So if you somehow have a workload that is pegging the CPU at 100%, or a combination of GPU + CPU that equals the same thermal output, for 15-20 minutes STRAIGHT, your performance STILL only drops to about the equivalent of M1's maximum performance. 8783 vs. 7743.

For the vast majority of users, their workloads will stay well within the zone where they are reaping the benefits of M2's performance increase. Even many sustained loads do not load up as much as Cinebench does. And for users who manage to push to the throttling point, their performance only goes down to about the performance of M1. Pushing past that point will be even rarer still.

So, as is always the case with throttling, the debate is not "Does the machine throttle or not?", it's "How much of an impact does throttling have?"

So far, I am not seeing any evidence that suggests that M2 MacBook Air users will have a poor experience. I think the effects of this throttling are far less than how it's being described. I also believe Apple would have weighed all of this themselves when testing this machine and determining how it would perform for its expected user base. For most users, it will still exceed their expectations, even while editing video and doing other "pro" workflows.
I agree and Air is just a consumer / home machine even if it perform as Pro, so if you feel Air limits you, just is not your machine
 

theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,587
7,686
Of these problems I think #1 is by far the most serious in terms of the M2 MBA. If Apple hadn't crippled the SSD on the base model (to the point where in real world usage it can perform much worse than the 256GB M1 MBA,) I think people would be a lot more willing to let the throttling (#3) go. It doesn't help that both MBAs (M1 and M2) can be modded to have performance that either doesn't really throttle (M1) or throttles much less (M2.) Of course there are good reasons Apple doesn't build the machines like this but it does suggest that perhaps they could have done a bit more with the redesign to mitigate throttling while maintaining a fanless design
...and, of course, in 12-18 months or so there will probably be a new 3nm processor that may "cure" the throttling, whereas the case/cooling design is probably good for 4 years or so. I'm not giving Apple a pat on the head and a free lollipop for not doing better - but it seems excusable.

As you say, the SSD speed is the "odd one out" here because it isn't even a design flaw: the machine is designed to use dual chips, the space and wiring is right there for a second chip - it's just that Apple (for no adequately explored reason) couldn't use 2 x 128GB chips and refused to give up their artificial $200 surcharge for a second 256GB chip - even on the more expensive (but not obviously more expensive to build) 13" MBP. If it's getting difficult/expensive to source the smaller chips, that should be Apple's cue to go to 512GB as standard (which is already pretty common on $1000+ laptops). Plus, using 2 chips and/or larger ones will extend the life of the SSD.
 

tornadowrangler

macrumors regular
Sep 5, 2020
139
255
I think the main problem is that the M1 MacBook Air didn't have this throttling problem but the M2 does. If it had happened with the M1 then we'd think nothing of it, because it still would have been way better than the intel MacBook Air it was replacing, and that would be the new baseline. If you didn't want the throttling, then you would get the M1 MacBook Pro with the fan.

But the M1 MacBook Air set the baseline for what is expected. It just looks bad to have a new design that is worse for the performance of the chip. The point that it is still faster than the M1 even with the throttling isn't the point. What you should be comparing is how fast the M2 would be if it were in the M1 MacBook Air's design. That's what has been lost.
 

daavee80

Cancelled
Jul 17, 2019
77
132
I think the main problem is that the M1 MacBook Air didn't have this throttling problem but the M2 does. If it had happened with the M1 then we'd think nothing of it, because it still would have been way better than the intel MacBook Air it was replacing, and that would be the new baseline. If you didn't want the throttling, then you would get the M1 MacBook Pro with the fan.

But the M1 MacBook Air set the baseline for what is expected. It just looks bad to have a new design that is worse for the performance of the chip. The point that it is still faster than the M1 even with the throttling isn't the point. What you should be comparing is how fast the M2 would be if it were in the M1 MacBook Air's design. That's what has been lost.
You are incorrect. The M1 Air 'throttles' every bit as much as the M2 Air.
 

Apple_Robert

Contributor
Sep 21, 2012
34,584
50,262
In the middle of several books.
I think the main problem is that the M1 MacBook Air didn't have this throttling problem but the M2 does. If it had happened with the M1 then we'd think nothing of it, because it still would have been way better than the intel MacBook Air it was replacing, and that would be the new baseline. If you didn't want the throttling, then you would get the M1 MacBook Pro with the fan.

But the M1 MacBook Air set the baseline for what is expected. It just looks bad to have a new design that is worse for the performance of the chip. The point that it is still faster than the M1 even with the throttling isn't the point. What you should be comparing is how fast the M2 would be if it were in the M1 MacBook Air's design. That's what has been lost.
The M2 doesn’t have a throttling problem.
 

AstroRexaur

macrumors regular
Mar 15, 2021
173
230
The only thing apple did wrong here was NOT improving passive cooling on the new MBA M2 model and the SSDs issue. And yes, SSDs are an issue because the last generation (supposed to be worse than the new one) is more faster than the new generation. Even the most “innocent and unexperienced” tech person knows was a bad choice from Apple.
 

NT1440

macrumors G5
May 18, 2008
14,756
21,449
I think the main problem is that the M1 MacBook Air didn't have this throttling problem but the M2 does. If it had happened with the M1 then we'd think nothing of it, because it still would have been way better than the intel MacBook Air it was replacing, and that would be the new baseline. If you didn't want the throttling, then you would get the M1 MacBook Pro with the fan.

But the M1 MacBook Air set the baseline for what is expected. It just looks bad to have a new design that is worse for the performance of the chip. The point that it is still faster than the M1 even with the throttling isn't the point. What you should be comparing is how fast the M2 would be if it were in the M1 MacBook Air's design. That's what has been lost.
The M2 throttled is just as fast as the M1…and faster when not doing workload that pin the machine out.

That’s not a problem.
 

tornadowrangler

macrumors regular
Sep 5, 2020
139
255
The main problem is that this throttling issue has been so meaninglessly overblown it's got people thinking the M1 Air doesn't throttle, and that's sad.
I didn't say it didn't throttle. The perception is that it throttles more than the M1 did in the M1 MacBook Air. If the M2 only throttles as much as the M1 did, that's cool. I don't know what all the fuss as been about.
 

Sammy in SoCal

macrumors 6502
Sep 18, 2021
491
1,055
So what? If someone runs a heavy workload on an M2 it’ll still work but maybe a bit slower than a computer with a fan. The case will get a bit warm. Why does any of that matter? The M2 Air is still plenty fast enough even if it throttles.

What debacle? The one made up by YouTubers looking for quick hits? I doubt Apple cares.
That’s bulls***. Apple does care because they handpick what Youtubers are invited to their events. The ones that lick Apple butt like iJustine have a red carpet and free accommodations to come on down. 😘
 

mi7chy

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2014
10,495
11,155
how fast is the throttled M2 compared to a throttled M1 ?

1658293805062-png.2032028
 

darngooddesign

macrumors P6
Jul 4, 2007
18,128
9,784
Atlanta, GA
how fast is the throttled M2 compared to a throttled M1 ?
MaxTech said that even with the M2 Air throttling before the M1 Air, Apple's numbers of 18% CPU and 30% GPU were correct. And if you choose to do the thermal pad mod, the M2 Air is slightly faster than the M2 13" MBP which has a fan and a proper heatsink.
 

Droid13

macrumors 6502
Jul 22, 2009
293
100
United Kingdom
I opted for 1 TB with 24 GB. Yes, I could have gotten a faster MacBook Pro 14” for that price. But guess what? - It’s not as lightweight and portable!

Me too and for the same reason. Once I was satisfied that the screen was adequate for my needs, it was always going to be a well-spec'd MBA M2. I have been lugging around a 15" Late 2013 MBP for coming up on 9 years and I cannot wait to have an ultra-thin, ultra-light device to work on instead.
 

mr_roboto

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2020
777
1,668
So why are people loosing their **** over the M2 (MBA)?
1. The reduction (by half) of the storage performance on the base, 256GB model (that will inevitably sell the most,) that can result in an extreme reduction in performance (far more than CPU/GPU throttling) when the machine has to page the SSD.
Sequential throughput isn't as important for swapping as you seem to think. Paging is a fairly random I/O load, so latency is extremely important. That's why even the earliest true SSDs available on the consumer market back in ~2008-2009 were so much better than HDDs at swapping, even though those early SSDs weren't far ahead of HDDs in sequential throughput.

Even if paging did depend only on sequential throughput, you have to keep things in perspective. M2 RAM is 100 GB/s and the 256GB SSD is ~1.5 GB/s. Doubling that still leaves it at a mere 3% of RAM. Heavy swapping is terrible in either case.

3. The fact that Apple completely redesigned the MBA from the ground up and... it still throttles to a similar degree as the old design despite there being an "easy fix"
The scarequotes you used there are quite appropriate because the "easy fix" isn't something Apple will ever do. Modders might not care about significantly higher temp hotspots on the case, but Apple has to be concerned about product safety and will never do that.
 

SeenJeen

macrumors 6502
Jul 16, 2009
381
280
I think the main problem is that the M1 MacBook Air didn't have this throttling problem but the M2 does. If it had happened with the M1 then we'd think nothing of it, because it still would have been way better than the intel MacBook Air it was replacing, and that would be the new baseline. If you didn't want the throttling, then you would get the M1 MacBook Pro with the fan.

But the M1 MacBook Air set the baseline for what is expected. It just looks bad to have a new design that is worse for the performance of the chip. The point that it is still faster than the M1 even with the throttling isn't the point. What you should be comparing is how fast the M2 would be if it were in the M1 MacBook Air's design. That's what has been lost.
WTF are you talking about. The M1 Air DOES throttle. In some cases it throttles harder than the M2 does:

 

R3k

macrumors 68000
Sep 7, 2011
1,509
1,481
Sep 7, 2011
Nice write up OP.

That said, aren’t 98% of air users sitting on a porch in balmy Costs Rica 5 days a week rendering 8k surfing videos while browsing insta?

That’s a lot of productivity loss over a weighted 365 day period than if the system didn’t throttle down to an on par level with the M1A. Insta performance must be frustrating too.

Said users are more likely to surf as they wait and the more you’re in the water the more likely you are to drown.
Thanks Tim.
 
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darngooddesign

macrumors P6
Jul 4, 2007
18,128
9,784
Atlanta, GA
I think the main problem is that the M1 MacBook Air didn't have this throttling problem but the M2 does. If it had happened with the M1 then we'd think nothing of it, because it still would have been way better than the intel MacBook Air it was replacing, and that would be the new baseline. If you didn't want the throttling, then you would get the M1 MacBook Pro with the fan.

But the M1 MacBook Air set the baseline for what is expected. It just looks bad to have a new design that is worse for the performance of the chip. The point that it is still faster than the M1 even with the throttling isn't the point. What you should be comparing is how fast the M2 would be if it were in the M1 MacBook Air's design. That's what has been lost.
Well that's simply not true. I could get the M1Air to throttle in Lightroom.
 
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