Mac Pro/OS X 4K Display Compatibility 'Like the Wild West', Some 4K Monitors Unsupported

[petsounds]

Why aside from the display but not aside of the keyboard? Either a Mac is usable out of the box or it isn't. Do you think it is likelier that people already have a monitor but not a keyboard and mouse?

Well, you're correct in that Apple has had a spotty history with this. The Macintosh II series (the first headless line of Macs) came with a mouse, but not keyboard or display. I don't think the PowerMacs came with anything. But if memory serves, the Mac Pro (1st gen) line came with both keyboard and mouse.

I think the caveat I (and Apple) made for displays is mainly an economic one. It's fairly cheap to include a keyboard and mouse, but including a display some may not want would have a lot of blowback from customers. The NeXT machines were different in that they were mainly used for scientific and software engineering purposes -- true workstations -- and so it was seen as a complete system, display* and all. The Mac Pro is used for a much wider range of activities, so many more customers want/require different displays.

And yes, I do think the Mac mini should come with a keyboard and mouse. Many people buy the mini as their first Mac, and it's important to have them experience a keyboard with Mac-specific keys and functionality on it.

(*) The NeXT MegaPixel Display monitors were also running at 92dpi, so they were effectively custom hardware to support NeXTSTEP's Display PostScript rendering engine. Although Apple has used the Retina display for a similar purpose in its iOS and MBP models, for some reason they have not released a "Quad" display to support 4k on the nMP. This does not make sense to me.

 

[CodeJingle]

All the operating systems have spotty 4K support, including advanced scaling support. Which hardware and operating system has better 4K support than Mac Pro with OS X Mavericks?

We can grade Mac Pro and OS X in relation to other hardware and operating systems and I am sure Apple will come out on top, instead of grading in a vacuum.

Let us see how fast Apple fixes the 4K issues with the Mac Pro and existing or new 4K monitors, in relation to how fast other hardware vendors and operating system manufacturers (that support 4K) fix the same issues.

 

[CodeJingle]

The official 4K standard requires 30-bit color instead of the typical 24-bit color. I hear countless people ask why hasn't Apple come out with a 4K monitor yet, with all this experience Apple has with high resolution displays? Well I bet it is because Apple has never made a 30-bit color display before! The latest revisions of iPhone, iPad Mini, iPad Air, Macbook Air, Macbook Pro - all 24-bit color displays (including the current Thunderbolt Display). Lets give Apple some time to figure out how to do 30-bit color display hardware before slamming them for not doing it fast enough.

Apple also stated they only release hardware if it is competitive with what is on the market, so if they can't make a competitive 4K 30-bit display then it won't ship.

 

[aloshka]

All the operating systems have spotty 4K support, including advanced scaling support. Which hardware and operating system has better 4K support than Mac Pro with OS X Mavericks?

We can grade Mac Pro and OS X in relation to other hardware and operating systems and I am sure Apple will come out on top, instead of grading in a vacuum.

Let us see how fast Apple fixes the 4K issues with the Mac Pro and existing or new 4K monitors, in relation to how fast other hardware vendors and operating system manufacturers (that support 4K) fix the same issues.

Windows already does it (both font-sizes and general scaling with 8.1). Linux has scaling as we'll. that leaves.... Apple. No scaling, no font settings, only 72dpi font.

 

[everything-i]

So all this is about the fact that some 4K monitors are not set up in OSX as HiDPI. From the headline it sounds like these monitors don't work at all.
This is the same story for all OS at the moment, it will get better over time but these devices are still only selling to a highly specialised market. One thing Apple do need to provide is provide a way of scaling text system wide though, if only as an accessibility feature. Most other OS' already do this and have done for some time.

 

[satcomer]

So all this is about the fact that some 4K monitors are not set up in OSX as HiDPI. From the headline it sounds like these monitors don't work at all.
This is the same story for all OS at the moment, it will get better over time but these devices a still only selling to a highly specialised market. One thing Apple do need to do is provide a way of scaling text system wide though if only as an accessibility feature. Most other OS' already do this and have done for some time.

I find claims by manufactures not to be true a lot of times! I have seen many user that suppose to do 5 GHz but can choose the 5 GHz channels. So far only the dual Band routers that do N do the proper 5 GHz channels (usually in the hundreds ranges).

 

[CodeJingle]

Windows already does it (both font-sizes and general scaling with 8.1). Linux has scaling as we'll. that leaves.... Apple. No scaling, no font settings, only 72dpi font.

And the full support is there in Windows 8.1 for all 4K monitors currently on the market, and for all those monitors it does scaling well? There are like 100 flavors of Ubuntu, which flavor are you talking about that has perfect 4K support? But your feedback is still all theoretical, what specific machines and machine configurations support 4K displays? The response still sounds canned, give me a specific example of an OS + machine configuration that does 4K better than Mac Pro?

 

[aloshka]

And the full support is there in Windows 8.1 for all 4K monitors currently on the market, and for all those monitors it does scaling well? There are like 100 flavors of Ubuntu, which flavor are you talking about that has perfect 4K support? But your feedback is still all theoretical, what specific machines and machine configurations support 4K displays? The response still sounds canned, give me a specific example of an OS + machine configuration that does 4K better than Mac Pro?

Oh by no means am I saying the support is great. It does it, it's workable, but it's awful on Windows 8 and kind of crappy on Linux as well (sorry don't remember the distro, I think it was something custom. I deleted it from my VM list a while back).

So let's focus 8.1. It's broken, but at least it's something as opposed to nothing. Basically broken vs working but too small .

I agree though, I think Apple will kick butt when they do this. I'm more complaining that Apple didn't release any monitors (4k or otherwise). And I wouldn't be surprised that they didn't do it because the software isn't ready to handle 4k.

Just wanted to say there is support :] It sucks, but it's there.

Oh and the machine is an hp z620. Until I get my mac pro anyway.

 

[terrymr]

Two things wrong with this post:

1. HDMI and DVI use the exact same signaling for video. HDMI adds audio. HDMI is basically DVI with audio.

I theory yes ... but in reality many devices only offer "TV Friendly" modes (1080p, 720p etc) when connected over HDMI and have a different set when connected over DVI.

 

[milo]

Not quite. There's 6 TB ports that share 4 controllers.

Nope, there are three controllers and they are hard wired to two ports each (the third wired to two TB2 ports plus the HDMI port).

 

[aloshka]

Nope, there are three controllers and they are hard wired to two ports each (the third wired to two TB2 ports plus the HDMI port).

Image

Interesting, apple documentation (need to find it) states that only 2 non-active DVI (converted or otherwise) ports can be used.

 

[milo]

Sorry I forgot to include the link.

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT5918

 

[aloshka]

Sorry I forgot to include the link.

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT5918

Wow thanks.

 

[thejadedmonkey]

Nope, there are three controllers and they are hard wired to two ports each (the third wired to two TB2 ports plus the HDMI port).

Image

Very interesting, that's not how anandtech's review made it sound. Maybe I misunderstood. Either way, thanks for clarifying.

 

[CodeJingle]

I agree though, I think Apple will kick butt when they do this. I'm more complaining that Apple didn't release any monitors (4k or otherwise). And I wouldn't be surprised that they didn't do it because the software isn't ready to handle 4k.

Apple has never made a 30-bit color display before, and the 4K standard requires 30-bit color. Maybe Apple didn't know how to make 30-bit color display hardware and had to figure it out for the first time?

Right I agree with everything you were saying. Support in hardware and software for 4K is being improved across the board and doesn't seem to be perfect for anyone including Apple. I hope too that Apple comes out with a 4K display soon.

 

[prowlmedia]

Hm, you don't say. The original NeXT Computer and the NeXTstation both came with a keyboard and mouse. In fact, they even came with a display.

Whether someone prefers to use another keyboard or mouse with the MP is irrelevant. A Mac should be always be usable out of the box, aside from the display. I don't think cost was the issue here; this is just some guy in marketing thinking the packaging should be tiny.

Nope. Totally agree with you that Home machines should have them. But a pro machine is not the same at all. Everyone has a completely different setup.

Apples Keyboards are expensive well made items. Not Dells home based 10 gram plastic mice and keyboards and if you wanted a wired keyboard and the mouse - bang - that's an extra $100 price. No thanks. I'd rather decide.

All pro's I know don't use a mouse or track pad. They use a wacom along with things like 3d controllers and Specialist keyboards.

You could argue that you should include a keyboard - but with apples wired and wireless one - straight away you have a build option

But what's the freaking issue. Of you need them add them on to the delivery and there they are. If you feel any issue in paying $100 for a mouse / keyboard and can't eat that cost up in a quarter of a day ( + they are tax deductible ) then you don't need a Mac Pro at all.

 

[Thunderhawks]

You're obviously not a pro user. Would you suggest I delay my business launch plans and lay people off while I wait for Tim Cook to pull his thumb out of his butt and do something? Yeah right. Go back to your iPad.

Since you are a pro user you certainly understand that new technologies take a while to become widespread and early adopters get imperfect products at first.

If your business launch plans are based on a 4K display which may not be working/being supported by the new Mac pro, I would be glad if you laid me off, because you obviously don't know how to run a business!

 

[aloshka]

Since you are a pro user you certainly understand that new technologies take a while to become widespread and early adopters get imperfect products at first.

If your business launch plans are based on a 4K display which may not be working/being supported by the new Mac pro, I would be glad if you laid me off, because you obviously don't know how to run a business!

Lol. Same here

 

[tbrinkma]

Wikiverse said:

No consumer will ever notice the difference between HD and 4k television at average viewing distances on televisions under 70".

4K delivery is Unnecessary.

You responded by saying:

No consumer? Well, I can't speak for the billions of other consumers out there but the 55" 4K Sony TV I saw was stunningly sharper than any HDTV I've every seen.

When questioned directly, you admitted that you were *well* inside the typical/average viewing distance for a 70" television.

Now you're claiming:

Average viewing distance is a nonexistent concept.

Apparently you don't understand the idea of basic mathematics, if you're going to claim that an average distance is a "nonexistent concept". Of course, you're also claiming that you watch your 100" TV from a distance closer than it's own diagonal.

 

[Renzatic]

Apparently you don't understand the idea of basic mathematics, if you're going to claim that an average distance is a "nonexistent concept". Of course, you're also claiming that you watch your 100" TV from a distance closer than it's own diagonal.

This cat does not understand the idea of basic mathematics! A TV is not meant to be watched from that average distance! You are a stupid cat, cat!

 

[1belvedere]

Reversed stripe order on Sharp 4k monitor

Take a look at Mike C's review for the Sharp 4K monitor that apparently Apple sells at their own retail stores:
http://store.apple.com/us/product/HD971LL/A/sharp-32-pn-k321-4k-ultra-hd-led-monitor

Apparently the RGB stripe order is actually BGR on this monitor, one OS X font smoothing has a hard-coded RGB assumption. Basically the fonts look bad unless you mount it UPSIDE DOWN!

 

[JM-Prod]

It takes a heck of a lot of effort.

If re-scaling icons is a huge effort for Apple, something is wrong...

 

[aloshka]

If re-scaling icons is a huge effort for Apple, something is wrong...

I think Apple, with the doubling of pixels, got it right. You want to see what changing the size of icons and font looks like? Install Windows 8 and put a DPI higher than 72. Looks like S****. And it's not so much they got it wrong, as much as things just do not scale at percentages as good as doubled . It's better to double and size smaller than try to size bigger.

 

[Dr. Weezil]

If you say so, Mr. Jones.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Not-Wild-West-Economics/dp/0804748543

https://www.gordon.edu/ace/pdf/F06F&E4748BR8Stringham.pdf

https://mises.org/journals/jls/3_1/3_1_2.pdf

http://www.independent.org/publications/tir/article.asp?a=552

It's OK, it's easier to believe in fairy tales.

 

[milo]

Because what this thread really needed was a reply seven months later to an off topic post about the wild west.