macOS 10.13 High Sierra will be released when iOS 11 is released

[EugW]

When iOS 11 is released, suddenly millions upon millions of iOS devices will be spitting out HEVC and HEIC files. These files are incompatible with macOS 10.12 Sierra and its built-in applications, like Photos.

Therefore, the only two real options are that Apple will release 10.12.7 Sierra with this compatibility, or else Apple will release 10.13 High Sierra, at the same time iOS 11 is released. Given that the system requirements for High Sierra are the same as Sierra, the most likely scenario is that Apple will just release 10.13, with no such updates to 10.12.

Expect the official 10.13 High Sierra release next week.

EDIT: Or perhaps more likely, iOS 11 and High Sierra will both be showcased next week and then actually released the week after.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

It's unlikely they would add a new feature to an already released OS when it is free to upgrade to the newer version with basically the same machines supported. There's no real reason to stay with Sierra, apps don't need much or any updates to work with High Sierra.

 

[_Kiki_]

I don't like new APFS, older software based on HFS+ isn't compatible

 

[ButteryScrollin]

Expect the official 10.13 High Sierra release next week.

iOS 11 won't be out next week, nor High Sierra.

 

[EugW]

iOS 11 won't be out next week, nor High Sierra.

OK. It will be discussed next week at the event, and then officially released the week after. (I have edited the original post to reflect this.)

But the main point is iOS 11 and High Sierra will be released at about the same time, for compatibility reasons.

It's unlikely they would add a new feature to an already released OS when it is free to upgrade to the newer version with basically the same machines supported. There's no real reason to stay with Sierra, apps don't need much or any updates to work with High Sierra.

I agree. While Sierra 10.12.7 may get a Safari update to bring it into sync with the Safari release that comes with High Sierra 10.13 GM, I don't think the new HEVC & HEIF / HEIC file formats will be brought to Sierra.

This is why I believe High Sierra will be available in less than two weeks.

 

[CaTOAGU]

They already handle quite well non HEIF compatible devices. I've had two Macs one running High Sierra and one running Sierra and an iPhone 7. Taking a photo on the iPhone gave an HEIF image, this uploaded to iCloud photo library which served a HEIF image to High Sierra and a JPEG one to Sierra. So I don't think image compatibility will force them into the same release date.

 

[EugW]

They already handle quite well non HEIF compatible devices. I've had two Macs one running High Sierra and one running Sierra and an iPhone 7. Taking a photo on the iPhone gave an HEIF image, this uploaded to iCloud photo library which served a HEIF image to High Sierra and a JPEG one to Sierra. So I don't think image compatibility will force them into the same release date.

If you email a HEIC file to a Sierra machine, it can't be read.

 

[CaTOAGU]

If you email a HEIC file to a Sierra machine, it can't be read.

Interesting, if I do it via the share button from photos it attaches a JPEG file. How are you doing it?

 

[EugW]

Interesting, if I do it via the share button from photos it attaches a JPEG file. How are you doing it?

Well, you would get the actual file manually. Photos will re-encode it to JPEG... which I actually don't like as the default share method, as it decreases quality and increases file size.

More importantly though, if you plug an iOS 11 iPhone into your Sierra system, you're going to have file format problems obviously. Not everyone uses iCloud the way you do. Furthermore, dealing with HEVC 4K video files from the iPhone 7 series gets even more complicated. Even Live Photos are a big problem.

 

[chrfr]

When iOS 11 is released, suddenly millions upon millions of iOS devices will be spitting out HEVC and HEIC files. These files are incompatible with macOS 10.12 Sierra and its built-in applications, like Photos.

Therefore, the only two real options are that Apple will release 10.12.7 Sierra with this compatibility, or else Apple will release 10.13 High Sierra, at the same time iOS 11 is released. Given that the system requirements for High Sierra are the same as Sierra, the most likely scenario is that Apple will just release 10.13, with no such updates to 10.12.

Expect the official 10.13 High Sierra release next week.

EDIT: Or perhaps more likely, iOS 11 and High Sierra will both be showcased next week and then actually released the week after.

There will be no 10.12.7. Apple will probably release High Sierra right around the time of iOS 11, just like they did last year with iOS 10 and Sierra. Apple has, in the past released iOS and OS X at different times, with feature incompatibility between the two, so it isn't impossible that this could happen again.

 

[EugW]

There will be no 10.12.7. Apple will probably release High Sierra right around the time of iOS 11, just like they did last year with iOS 10 and Sierra.

Yeah, Apple will likely release Safari 11 for Sierra 10.12 (and probably at least El Capitan 10.11), but it won't be in a new 10.12.7 update. It will be a standalone Safari update.

Apple has, in the past released iOS and OS X at different times, with feature incompatibility between the two, so it isn't impossible that this could happen again.

Unlikely this time around, because of the nature of the incompatibility. The files in question from iOS 11 are completely unreadable on Sierra. Even updating iTunes wouldn't help. Apple would have to update too much in Sierra to make it work.

 

[h9826790]

I don't like new APFS, older software based on HFS+ isn't compatible

I look forward to the APFS, but won't use it at this moment. Disk Warrior safe me 2-3 times already, with APFS, I also doubt my life safer software can work properly or not. My plan is to stay at HFS+ with HS (when officially released).

 

[Chupa Chupa]

I look forward to the APFS, but won't use it at this moment. Disk Warrior safe me 2-3 times already, with APFS, I also doubt my life safer software can work properly or not. My plan is to stay at HFS+ with HS (when officially released).

Keep in mind if you boot from an SSD APFS is not optional.

 

[h9826790]

Keep in mind if you boot from an SSD APFS is not optional.

It is, I join the test since something around beta 5. My system (as per my signature) is mixed with SSD and HDD. My boot drive is a SSD (single partition, HFS+). Even the latest beta won't auto convert my SSD into APFS.

However, I 100% agree that the official release may "fix" this bug.

It seems the Mac Pro 5,1 is a special case in Macs now. There are so many variety. We may boot from internal HDD, internal SATA SSD, internal PCIe SSD, external USB or firewire HDD/ SSD, Fusion, RAID 0.....all sort of different combinations. We may have few more drives that including different kinds of SSD with different controller. In fact, we just got a firmware about a month ago, before that, we can't even boot from APFS partition. May be the installer still not fully ready for Mac Pro 5,1 yet. Or may be Apple just don't case about the Mac Pro 5,1. And accidentally allow us to run HS on SSD with HFS+.

But anyway, even they force the conversion. I am pretty sure I can still format a SSD into HFS+, and then clone a HS onto it. In this case, since the OS is not "Installed" by the installer, HS should allow to on a HFS+ SSD.

 

[EugW]

I wonder how it will work with third party SSDs. I have a MacBook Pro from 2009 that isn’t supported in High Sierra. However, using a modified installer I have High Sierra Developer Beta 9 installed. Everything works perfectly, with HFS+ on my SSD. Both the boot drive and the recovery partition work fine.

In Developer Beta 9, which may or may not be the last Beta, APFS is still optional. If I install it on APFS it still works, but the patched install is not so slick. The boot process is in verbose mode, and only the boot drive works. The recovery partition is not bootable (so far). Otherwise this APFS install works fine but I’d prefer HFS+ in this scenario for obvious reasons.

 

[nilk]

They already handle quite well non HEIF compatible devices. I've had two Macs one running High Sierra and one running Sierra and an iPhone 7. Taking a photo on the iPhone gave an HEIF image, this uploaded to iCloud photo library which served a HEIF image to High Sierra and a JPEG one to Sierra. So I don't think image compatibility will force them into the same release date.

What happens if you are running Sierra and have iCloud Photos set to "Download Originals". Do you get both a JPEG for viewing and a HEIF file to retain the original but doesn't get used? (and if that were the case, I'd guess an upgrade to High Sierra would clean out the unnecessary JPEGs) It would be strange to get only a JPEG when HEIF is the original, because I'd assume the HEIF->JPEG conversion would be lossy.

 

[h9826790]

I wonder how it will work with third party SSDs. I have a MacBook Pro from 2009 that isn’t supported in High Sierra. However, using a modified installer I have High Sierra Developer Beta 9 installed. Everything works perfectly, with HFS+ on my SSD. Both the boot drive and the recovery partition work fine.

In Developer Beta 9, which may or may not be the last Beta, APFS is still optional. If I install it on APFS it still works, but the patched install is not so slick. The boot process is in verbose mode, and only the boot drive works. The recovery partition is not bootable (so far). Otherwise this APFS install works fine but I’d prefer HFS+ in this scenario for obvious reasons.

All my SSD are 3rd party SSD (in fact, most Mac Pro users using different kind of 3rd party SSD).

HS works fine so far. And AFAIK, quite a few Mac Pro guys already running HS beta on their 3d party SSD with APFS. Didn't heard any big issue so far. Of course, bugs are plenty, but those are the normal beta OS bug, nothing to do with APFS or 3rd party SSD.

However, what worry me a bit is that seems on every beta update, few guys' OS will be kill for unknown reason. And there is no way to recover. The only exit is to re-format the drive and then re-install HS. It seem all these cases are with APFS (but seems not limited to 3rd party SSD).

 

[EugW]

All my SSD are 3rd party SSD (in fact, most Mac Pro users using different kind of 3rd party SSD).

HS works fine so far. And AFAIK, quite a few Mac Pro guys already running HS beta on their 3d party SSD with APFS. Didn't heard any big issue so far. Of course, bugs are plenty, but those are the normal beta OS bug, nothing to do with APFS or 3rd party SSD.

However, what worry me a bit is that seems on every beta update, few guys' OS will be kill for unknown reason. And there is no way to recover. The only exit is to re-format the drive and then re-install HS. It seem all these cases are with APFS (but seems not limited to 3rd party SSD).

My post was to pose the question if High Sierra GM will force APFS on 3rd party SSDs or not. I want to keep HFS+ on my SSD for my 2009 MacBook Pro, for the reasons mentioned.

 

[h9826790]

My post was to pose the question if High Sierra GM will force APFS on 3rd party SSDs or not. I want to keep HFS+ on my SSD for my 2009 MacBook Pro, for the reasons mentioned.

I think the main factor is not 3rd party SSD. AFAIK, if the Mac is running pure SSD, the installer will auto convert the boot partition to APFS regardless is the SSD is 3rd party or not. And if there is a HDD exist, auto conversion may not happen.

However, I suspect there is also a firmware check before the installer do the auto conversion. At least, this is the case on the Mac Pro. On the early beta, all other supported Mac allow to convert to APFS except the Mac Pro 5,1. And because your Mac is not supported, may be the installer decide that your Mac may is not fully compatible to APFS. Therefore, no forced auto conversion in your case.

I really hope the final release still keep this "bug". I prefer to have choice.

 

[chrfr]

My post was to pose the question if High Sierra GM will force APFS on 3rd party SSDs or not. I want to keep HFS+ on my SSD for my 2009 MacBook Pro, for the reasons mentioned.

The installer will convert 3rd party or factory SSDs just the same.
[doublepost=1504805921][/doublepost]

However, I suspect there is also a firmware check before the installer do the auto conversion. At least, this is the case on the Mac Pro. On the early beta, all other supported Mac allow to convert to APFS except the Mac Pro 5,1. And because your Mac is not supported, may be the installer decide that your Mac may is not fully compatible to APFS. Therefore, no forced auto conversion in your case.

Once the firmware update has been installed on the Mac Pro 5,1, SSDs in those will automatically be converted to APFS.

 

[Erdbeertorte]

(and probably at least El Capitan 10.11)

Pretty sure:

There had been several 10.2 or 10.0.2 (can't remember) betas of Safari for Yosemite a while ago. It's gone since public release. So no 11 to expect for that one.


Edit: I also think there might be a chance of a 10.12.7 release because APFS on Mac is far away from going public as standard. If not 10.13 will be released later, maybe even iOS 11 and the new phones are released later.

 

[Chupa Chupa]

It is, I join the test since something around beta 5. My system (as per my signature) is mixed with SSD and HDD. My boot drive is a SSD (single partition, HFS+). Even the latest beta won't auto convert my SSD into APFS.

However, I 100% agree that the official release may "fix" this bug.

I don't think it's a "bug." Either it's only applicable to built-in SSD drive Macs or Apple hasn't activated the requirement in the beta. But Apple support docs online are very clear that APFS is mandatory with SSD boot drives:

"When you install macOS High Sierra on the built-in solid-state drive (SSD) of a Mac, that drive is automatically converted to APFS....You can't opt out of the transition to APFS."

I confess I only just now saw the "built-in" qualifier so perhaps it will not convert if you have a 3rd party or external SSD.

 

[EugW]

I don't think it's a "bug." Either it's only applicable to built-in SSD drive Macs or Apple hasn't activated the requirement in the beta. But Apple support docs online are very clear that APFS is mandatory with SSD boot drives:

"When you install macOS High Sierra on the built-in solid-state drive (SSD) of a Mac, that drive is automatically converted to APFS....You can't opt out of the transition to APFS."

I confess I only just now saw the "built-in" qualifier so perhaps it will not convert if you have a 3rd party or external SSD.

That would be perfect!

The installer will convert 3rd party or factory SSDs just the same.

How do you know this?

 

[chrfr]

How do you know this?

I have been testing the betas.

 

[Erdbeertorte]

"When you install macOS High Sierra on the built-in solid-state drive (SSD) of a Mac, that drive is automatically converted to APFS....You can't opt out of the transition to APFS."

I confess I only just now saw the "built-in" qualifier so perhaps it will not convert if you have a 3rd party or external SSD.

I have a Late 2011 MBP with two 3rd party SSDs and am not able to install it unconverted, since opting out disappeared. That's why I downgraded to Sierra, but now I am back. Still the same problems with APFS.

Edit: Same for external SSD attached to my Early 2016 MB.