macOS 10.13 High Sierra will be released when iOS 11 is released

[h9826790]

I have been testing the betas.

But you are running a pure SSD system. It is still an unknown if the final release will auto convert the boot partition into APFS if HDD also exist. At least, there is no forced conversion on my cMP at this moment.
[doublepost=1504809672][/doublepost]

I have a Late 2011 MBP with two 3rd party SSDs and am not able to install it unconverted, since opting out disappeared. That's why I downgraded to Sierra, but now I am back. Still the same problems with APFS.

Edit: Same for external SSD attached to my Early 2016 MB.

Since you have 2 SSD, if you really want to try running HS with HFS+, do you mind to try....

1) install HS on one of the SSD (It will be auto converted into APFS)
2) format the other one to HFS+
3) clone the HS from the APFS SSD to the HFS+ SSD (it can be easily done by using the free trial of Carbon Copy Cloner)
4) format the APFS SSD into HFS+

If this work, then you should able to run HS in a pure HFS+ system.

 

[WolfSnap]

I don't like new APFS, older software based on HFS+ isn't compatible

I know!! My old punch-cards don't work in the new computers either! Also, my whole 5.25" floppy disk collection from the Apple //c doesn't work in my mac either. Progress sucks! /s

 

[Erdbeertorte]

But you are running a pure SSD system. It is still an unknown if the final release will auto convert the boot partition into APFS if HDD also exist. At least, there is no forced conversion on my cMP at this moment.
[doublepost=1504809672][/doublepost]

Since you have 2 SSD, if you really want to try running HS with HFS+, do you mind to try....

1) install HS on one of the SSD (It will be auto converted into APFS)
2) format the other one to HFS+
3) clone the HS from the APFS SSD to the HFS+ SSD (it can be easily done by using the free trail of Carbon Copy Cloner)
4) format the APFS SSD into HFS+

If this work, then you should able to run HS in a pure HFS+ system.

I already thought about installing it on an HDD before and clone that one to the SSD. But that would be too much hassle because I fear I have to do it again and again with every update and there will be many because I would like to stay in the Developer Beta Update Program.

Also I don't think it'll work from SSD to SSD and mine in are in a hardware RAID0 adapter. So I have to pull out the SuperDrive and put an HDD in or use an external one. But it's worth a try after GM release. Thanks!

 

[redheeler]

When iOS 11 is released, suddenly millions upon millions of iOS devices will be spitting out HEVC and HEIC files. These files are incompatible with macOS 10.12 Sierra and its built-in applications, like Photos.

Therefore, the only two real options are that Apple will release 10.12.7 Sierra with this compatibility, or else Apple will release 10.13 High Sierra, at the same time iOS 11 is released. Given that the system requirements for High Sierra are the same as Sierra, the most likely scenario is that Apple will just release 10.13, with no such updates to 10.12.

Expect the official 10.13 High Sierra release next week.

EDIT: Or perhaps more likely, iOS 11 and High Sierra will both be showcased next week and then actually released the week after.

It doesn't necessarily guarantee a final release of both OSes at the same time. For example, iOS 8 was released a full month before OS X Yosemite, and during that time if someone converted their iCloud account to iCloud Drive on iOS 8, their Mac running the release version 10.9.5 Mavericks would no longer be able to use iCloud for file storage. People were advised to simply not opt for iCloud Drive until Yosemite's release, and I'm sure it caused some frustration - but Apple didn't see OS X Yosemite as being ready for release yet (and there were some last-minute bug fixes).

Another reason is that I don't think High Sierra in its current form is ready for release. From the early betas it was clear to me that it would take some time to fix all the bugs, especially with serious changes like APFS and WindowServer on Metal. Current beta is much better, but still not release-ready.

 

[EugW]

It doesn't necessarily guarantee a final release of both OSes at the same time. For example, iOS 8 was released a full month before OS X Yosemite, and during that time if someone converted their iCloud account to iCloud Drive on iOS 8, their Mac running the release version 10.9.5 Mavericks would no longer be able to use iCloud for file storage. People were advised to simply not opt for iCloud Drive until Yosemite's release, and I'm sure it caused some frustration - but Apple didn't see OS X Yosemite as being ready for release yet (and there were some last-minute bug fixes).

Another reason is that I don't think High Sierra in its current form is ready for release. From the early betas it was clear to me that it would take some time to fix all the bugs, especially with serious changes like APFS and WindowServer on Metal. Current beta is much better, but still not release-ready.

The current beta is release ready from my perspective, with my usage case, but then again I'm not running APFS. I'm on HFS+.

 

[Erdbeertorte]

I know!! My old punch-cards don't work in the new computers either! Also, my whole 5.25" floppy disk collection from the Apple //c doesn't work in my mac either. Progress sucks! /s

I also like the new features of APFS but it's bad if you want to have native several Linux distributions and Windows on the same drive and can't access the Mac partition.
Somewhere on the Paragon website I read that they don't plan to release APFS for Windows and their Hard Disk Manager for Mac shows my SSD as unformatted and missing the Recovery Partition. I am even in the their beta program and never get updates.
[doublepost=1504812287][/doublepost]

The current beta is release ready from my perspective, with my usage case, but then again I'm not running APFS. I'm on HFS+.

My iMac too, but it's a 2011 with HDD, getting slow even with 32GB RAM.

 

[EugW]

Somewhere on the Paragon website I read that they don't plan to release APFS for Windows and their Hard Disk Manager for Mac shows my SSD as unformatted and missing the Recovery Partition. I am even in the their beta program and never get updates.

Well, that is an unpleasant surprise.

 

[Erdbeertorte]

Well, that is an unpleasant surprise.

Don't know about BootCamp because currently I don't have Windows installed and also 10.13 is still in Beta. But I have no hope for Linux support what also relies on a Paragon driver that is and will also be only available for NTFS and HFS+ in the near or far future.

 

[dogslobber]

I agree. While Sierra 10.12.7 may get a Safari update to bring it into sync with the Safari release that comes with High Sierra 10.13 GM, I don't think the new HEVC & HEIF / HEIC file formats will be brought to Sierra.

This is why I believe High Sierra will be available in less than two weeks.

There is no 10.12.7 since Safari 11 will be a separate download for El Capitan and Sierra. The 10.13 release date will be announced next week and the GM will be out next week. Stay tuned.
[doublepost=1504833947][/doublepost]

My iMac too, but it's a 2011 with HDD, getting slow even with 32GB RAM.

You really need an SSD to run anything later than Yosemite. If you want to get a performant OS for a hard disk then it really needs to be Snow Leopard. SL on a spinner is about the same speed as High Sierra on an SSD. That's how much flat Apple has added since 2009. Note that an iMac 2011 can run SL.

 

[h9826790]

There is no 10.12.7 since Safari 11 will be a separate download for El Capitan and Sierra. The 10.13 release date will be announced next week and the GM will be out next week. Stay tuned.
[doublepost=1504833947][/doublepost]

You really need an SSD to run anything later than Yosemite. If you want to get a performant OS for a hard disk then it really needs to be Snow Leopard. SL on a spinner is about the same speed as High Sierra on an SSD. That's how much flat Apple has added since 2009. Note that an iMac 2011 can run SL.

IMO, Anything since Mountain Lion is optimised for SSD. But I totally agree that the situation is much worse post Yosemite. In my own observation, the OS is now more rely on "real time access" from the hard drive, but not something "cached" into RAM. e.g. when you right click a file, the "open with" items is clearly affected more frequently by the hard drive speed. This kind of unnecessary delay never exist in SL. But suddenly pop up in the recent OS. I understand that the cached will be outdated at some stage, and real time access guarantee the accuracy. However, even with SSD, it's still a bit annoying to see that OS require a fraction of second to fetch. And if there is any apps stored on a HDD (even on a system that has independent SSD as boot / application drive), there is a chance that the OS will try to fetch from the HDD as well, which make the whole process painfully slow. And not matter how much RAM you have, it can't be improved.

 

[h9826790]

As far as the APFS vs HFS+ thing, my 2014 13" rMBP got a serious speed bump when moving to the new filesystem.

While prior versions may be "optimized" for SSDs, going to APFS on a SSD machine will make it faster and more reliable than HFS+, which was designed for spinning mechanical HDDs.

I agree it is faster for SSD overall, but reliability is still a big question mark at this moment. We simply do not have enough data to show that the current APFS is more reliable than HFS+ (especially there is nothing too wrong on HFS+).

All we know is there are few beta OS upgrade failed, then disk utility cannot recovery the APFS partition. Must re-format and start again. Or something like even Finder cannot accurately calculate the used / empty space, etc. On this point of view, APFS is definitely not more reliable yet.

 

[Erdbeertorte]

You really need an SSD to run anything later than Yosemite. If you want to get a performant OS for a hard disk then it really needs to be Snow Leopard. SL on a spinner is about the same speed as High Sierra on an SSD. That's how much flat Apple has added since 2009. Note that an iMac 2011 can run SL.

I have some SSDs with USB 3.0 enclosure but it's just an interim iMac and this http://www.caldigit.com/thunderbolt-2-dock-TS2/ what I originally purchased for my 17" Late 2011 MBP doesn't support booting from USB. I don't want to invest anything more in that iMac because at "home" (stored in a hotel since 14 months now) I have a Late 2015 5K with 1TB flash storage. And the 2011 iMac will be sold as soon as I am back.

But I am too sick and tired moving 900km again and find a new flat/apartment there. I am already overdue for almost a year now.

 

[h9826790]

I think there is a tendency for people not to change. It's like some people who can't move on past the lack of headphone jack on the iPhone 7/7 Plus. Or that hate when Facebook redesigns their news feed. I feel like change is a good thing. And getting stuck in a rut of needing the same thing is a inability to adapt and everyone knows - adapt or die. Learn new stuff.

I'm all for moving on and adopting newer and better technologies and I hate people who don't get on the bandwagon out of FUD. I'm definitely one who believes everyone should always be on the latest software out for your device. Always. I really don't like it when people fear things unneccesarily OR make up some conspiracy (such as planned obsolence), etc.

There have been hiccups on APFS as you mentioned, but once the beta is finalized, APFS will prove to be a much better filesystem for everybody. Perhaps I was a bit early with my comment about reliability but APFS is a much better designed filesystem than HFS+, and there is no debating that. Keep in mind HFS+ has been around since 8.1. Time to move on.

May be I created some confusion. I am so looking forward to APFS, not against it. Or reluctant to move on. That's why I am with 10.12.6 as my basic OS, and testing / studying the 10.13 beta.

There is no doubt APFS is a better designed file system on the blue print. But IMO, that's not mature enough yet. Especially about reliability.

I just try my best to stay objective to determine if it's really a good decision to move to APFS now.

 

[EugW]

iOS 11 GM is floating around now in the wild. I suspect the High Sierra GM is solidified now too, even though there has not yet been a leak for the HS GM.

 

[h9826790]

Even GM now can have GM1, GM2, GM3… and the final release eventually may have another build number, make me really feel no big difference then PB.

 

[EugW]

Even GM now can have GM1, GM2, GM3… and the final release eventually may have another build number, make me really feel no big difference then PB.

I fully expect the HS GM to have a slightly later build number. Lots of things Apple wanted to hide.

 

[redheeler]

iOS 11 GM is floating around now in the wild. I suspect the High Sierra GM is solidified now too. No leak for the HS GM yet though.

Only one weekday to go until Tuesday, definitely agree Apple is testing a MacOS GM. But it is common for Apple to put out multiple MacOS GM releases with a later release date than iOS, so I often consider the first GM to be another more mature beta.

 

[ButteryScrollin]

Tomorrow: GMs for all OSs
Wednesday 20th: iOS 11 public release.
Wednesday 27th: 10.13 public release.

 

[redheeler]

High Sierra release date confirmed September 25. iOS 11 September 19. So not a big difference there.

GM candidate for both to come shortly I'm sure.

 

[EugW]

Tomorrow: GMs for all OSs
Wednesday 20th: iOS 11 public release.
Wednesday 27th: 10.13 public release.

Sounds good. Only 1 week apart, which is reasonable. The masses can take some pix and videos for week and then sync a week later on High Sierra.

I plan on upgrading my wife's iPhone 6s to iOS 11 asap though, so she can finally receive my Live Photos.

 

[h9826790]

Sounds good. Only 1 week apart, which is reasonable. The masses can take some pix and videos for week and then sync a week later on High Sierra.

I plan on upgrading my wife's iPhone 6s to iOS 11 asap though, so she can finally receive my Live Photos.

What's wrong with her phone? Live Photos should always work on 6s

 

[EugW]

What's wrong with her phone? Live Photos should always work on 6s

I'm on iOS 11, and she's on iOS 10. When I send her a Live Photo, she just gets a JPEG, because all my Live Photos are HEIC images with HEVC video.

iMessage senses that her iOS 10 iPhone 6s cannot understand those file formats and just converts the Live Photo to a still JPEG image without video.

 

[LarryJoe33]

Where are you guys getting these dates? Per the keynote, iOS 11 is 9-19 and unless I missed something, there was no mention of High Sierra.

 

[EugW]

High Sierra release date is actually Sept. 25.

https://www.apple.com/macos/high-sierra/

 

[LarryJoe33]

iOS 11 GM is already out.

High Sierra release date is actually Sept. 25.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/12/16277554/apple-mac-os-high-sierra-release-date-download-announced

thanks