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bcortens

macrumors 65816
Aug 16, 2007
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They could, but it would make no sense and save no money. They'd be offering a worse machine with no benefit to customers or themselves or developers, and it would come with massive headaches for all. It makes me think you don't really understand what you're talking about.

They would save money, the A14 is about 4.5 billion transistors smaller than the M1, so they (Apple) would save money. From a developer perspective what headache would this cause? If Apple chose to modify an A series for the Mac they could still have called it an M1 but just used the 2 high performance, 4 high efficiency core, 4 gpu core layout instead. They would probably have had to unify the GPU architecture across A and M series earlier (which I think only happened with the A15 IIRC). So the developer experience would have been the same as the real life switch.


But they haven't stagnated. Most OEMs offer 8/256 as their base config in product lines competing with Apple's 8/256 machines, and they're often worse overall computers at that. They just don't usually charge as much as Apple does for upgrades. This is the industry standard, and it's set there because it's the config most people opt for. If it were really that unusable, no one would be buying it.

So what if it's the industry standard. The industry standard shouldn't be Apple's guiding light. The rest of the industry doesn't offer M1 levels of CPU and GPU performance in the product lines that compete with Apple's 8/256 machines so should Apple also not offer that level of performance? (which is my point with the A series above)

The M-chip is the baseline because they made it the baseline. They modified MacOS to take advantage of all the custom chips they added to it and decided that this provided a level of performance they were happy with in laptops and desktops. It's not some clandestine decision to force people to overprovision on CPU and GPU power, it's a way to simplify their product and manufacturing lines while starting with a platform that has room for expansion (see Mx Pro, Max, Ultra, possibly Extreme)

The idea that an A-chip would fix any of your issues is absurd. I don't really get how you think arguing for a worse SoC makes any sense.

I don't think or want an A-chip. I agree, they chose the M series to be the baseline (I disagree that the changes they made to macOS would not also have applied if the A series was the baseline). They also choose to have the baseline be 8/256. It's a choice. It is a choice to follow industry standard on one metric and not on another. A choice I disagree with. My point in all this is that people arguing that 256 GB is enough for the baseline are implicitly saying they'd be okay if Apple had chosen 2 high performance cores and 4 GPU cores at the baseline as well.

Edit: Suppose they wanted to get the most bang for buck they could have harvested the dies that have 1+ failed CPU cores and 1+ failed GPU cores and called that a 6 Core CPU X 6 Core GPU M1, then they could have saved even more money, a single motherboard design across 6 Core M1s and 8 Core M1s but they get to use all those failed chips!
 

boss.king

macrumors 603
Apr 8, 2009
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They would save money, the A14 is about 4.5 billion transistors smaller than the M1, so they (Apple) would save money. From a developer perspective what headache would this cause? If Apple chose to modify an A series for the Mac they could still have called it an M1 but just used the 2 high performance, 4 high efficiency core, 4 gpu core layout instead. They would probably have had to unify the GPU architecture across A and M series earlier (which I think only happened with the A15 IIRC). So the developer experience would have been the same as the real life switch.
And then they have to optimise MacOS for A-series chips. And then set up separate production lines that makes boards for this one SKU of mac that supports a different chipset. And then update their various SDKs etc to work, and get devs to optimise their apps for this new line. In the end, offering an A-series chip on the base model would probably end up costing them money.

So what if it's the industry standard. The industry standard shouldn't be Apple's guiding light. The rest of the industry doesn't offer M1 levels of CPU and GPU performance in the product lines that compete with Apple's 8/256 machines so should Apple also not offer that level of performance? (which is my point with the A series above)
You're right, the rest of the industry offers worse computers at similar prices. Almost like Apple is leading the industry or something. Doesn't sound like stagnating, does it?

I don't think or want an A-chip. I agree, they chose the M series to be the baseline (I disagree that the changes they made to macOS would not also have applied if the A series was the baseline). They also choose to have the baseline be 8/256. It's a choice. It is a choice to follow industry standard on one metric and not on another. A choice I disagree with. My point in all this is that people arguing that 256 GB is enough for the baseline are implicitly saying they'd be okay if Apple had chosen 2 high performance cores and 4 GPU cores at the baseline as well.
You're not making a point. This is just arguing for the sake of arguing. If you don't like what Apple is selling, don't buy it. It's that simple. Plenty of people are happy with the base config.

Edit: Suppose they wanted to get the most bang for buck they could have harvested the dies that have 1 failed CPU core and more than 1 failed GPU core and called that a 6 Core CPU M1, 6 Core GPU M1, then they could have saved even more money, a single motherboard design across 6 Core M1s and 8 Core M1s but they get to use all those failed chips!
Sure. They could also have used the ones all the way down to only one working CPU and GPU core. But they didn't.

I can't really even follow your line of thinking anymore. Playing "what if" with every possible config of Mac that could ever exist doesn't really seem like a good use of anyone's time. Plenty of people are happy with the base configs that exist, and there are always upgrades for the people who aren't. And for the people who still aren't happy, there are other OEMs who'll gladly sell you a worse machine so you can point at it and go "look, 1TB base model" while getting worse value and performance in every other way. I'm going to tag out of this discussion because it's clearly going nowhere.
 
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bcortens

macrumors 65816
Aug 16, 2007
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And then they have to optimise MacOS for A-series chips. And then set up separate production lines that makes boards for this one SKU of mac that supports a different chipset. And then update their various SDKs etc to work, and get devs to optimise their apps for this new line. In the end, offering an A-series chip on the base model would probably end up costing them money.

Not really for the optimization. The A series and M series are nearly identical, and if they were to have gone down this route they might have still made a specialized M series but it would have diverged less and hued closer to the A series in performance and capability.

You're right, the rest of the industry offers worse computers at similar prices. Almost like Apple is leading the industry or something. Doesn't sound like stagnating, does it?

As I keep looping around to, I care that they are stagnating in memory and storage. They used to move all fronts forward, not at the same time, sometimes only CPUs would change, other times only memory and storage would change, but generally everything slowly got better if looked at over the 2-3 year time span. I've said that the time span probably should have slowed to 3-5 years given the stagnation over the last 10 years. Apple used to see the value in increasing base storage and memory as well as performance but apparently no longer see that value. I disagree that there is no value in continuing to lead the industry in memory and storage as well as in performance.

You're not making a point. This is just arguing for the sake of arguing. If you don't like what Apple is selling, don't buy it. It's that simple. Plenty of people are happy with the base config.

Plenty of people would be happy with less than the base config. My point is that it is a choice and one that I disagree with. If, as you and others have said, well all people need is 8/256 I argued that if it was only about what people need then the Mac mini and MacBook Air could have been built with an A series based chip rather than the M series we got. Apple chooses to give more than what is needed in terms of performance but not more than what you and others feel is needed in terms of storage or memory. I disagree with these choices.

Sure. They could also have used the ones all the way down to only one working CPU and GPU core. But they didn't.

I can't really even follow your line of thinking anymore. Playing "what if" with every possible config of Mac that could ever exist doesn't really seem like a good use of anyone's time. Plenty of people are happy with the base configs that exist, and there are always upgrades for the people who aren't. And for the people who still aren't happy, there are other OEMs who'll gladly sell you a worse machine so you can point at it and go "look, 1TB base model" while getting worse value and performance in every other way. I'm going to tag out of this discussion because it's clearly going nowhere.

The whole point of this thread is that people are unhappy with Apple's choices for the base model. The whole thread is a giant what if.
 

JouniS

macrumors 6502a
Nov 22, 2020
613
377
Again, I agree that Apple charges too much for its ram and storage upgrades, but I don't agree that the 8/256 config is unreasonable for the price, or an unreasonable config for a base model.
The 8/256 configuration is unreasonable, because Apple can no longer produce it in the way they intended. Small enough SSDs are no longer readily available in the market. In order to sell 8/256 Macs, Apple has to accept lower than intended performance. Much in the same way as in the 8/128 configurations of M1 Macs that were available in the educational store but not for general audience.

A reasonable baseline should be 8/512. Not because people need that but because that's the lowest configuration that can be produced without compromises.
 
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boss.king

macrumors 603
Apr 8, 2009
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The 8/256 configuration is unreasonable, because Apple can no longer produce it in the way they intended. Small enough SSDs are no longer readily available in the market. In order to sell 8/256 Macs, Apple has to accept lower than intended performance. Much in the same way as in the 8/128 configurations of M1 Macs that were available in the educational store but not for general audience.

A reasonable baseline should be 8/512. Not because people need that but because that's the lowest configuration that can be produced without compromises.
You're arguing a different point to the one I made.
 

Altis

macrumors 68040
Sep 10, 2013
3,166
4,897
Then you were never Apple's customer in the first place. But you gotta admit, you are envious of what's on this side of the fence or you wouldn't be here. It's like me looking at my neighbours Porsche Taycan and rationalising to myself that I can get better range from my Ford Ranger.

I love all these "here's what you could have bought" posts. The answer is usually: true, I could have bought that [insert shopping list of specs] PC but I wanted a Mac/ MacOS.

It doesn't matter how good value or how many gigawatts that PC has, I won't be buying it for a whole host of reasons. I was never a customer, or even a potential customer of Dell/ Alienware/ Asus/ [insert other brand name, selling gigawatt pc's].

I could have bought 5x of those company's laptops for what I paid for my MBP and I really don't care.
I'm "never Apple's customer in the first place"? I guess my several Apple laptops, Mac Mini, iPhones, AppleTV, iPad, etc, all mean nothing.

The only thing more off-putting about Apple than their upgrade prices is the mentality of some of their most ardent proponents -- Can't handle a hint of dissent from the holy Apple, expressing personal views on the value of the lineup on a forum dedicated to such.

It's just a computer, a tool, that runs software to do tasks. That's it.
 

Analog Kid

macrumors G3
Mar 4, 2003
8,982
11,726
No, they should always strive to better allocate their resources to better meet customer needs.

So again, shouldn't they sell an A12 base model? (No, lets pick an A series they still sell, so lets say an A14 instead)
Why? When you say "shouldn't they", what motivates that? If it's a more cost effective way for Apple to meet a customer need, then sure, I guess, but it sounds like a lot of extra cost on Apple's side to adapt MacOS and build another PCB that needs to be maintained and keep legacy SoCs in production for the intended life of a new product...

I don't know Apple's internal cost structure on these so who knows but my going in position would be that it's not a better allocation of resources for the customer's needs.

They would save money, the A14 is about 4.5 billion transistors smaller than the M1, so they (Apple) would save money.
You're back to pricing things by the cost of the sand...

I don't think or want an A-chip. I agree, they chose the M series to be the baseline (I disagree that the changes they made to macOS would not also have applied if the A series was the baseline). They also choose to have the baseline be 8/256. It's a choice. It is a choice to follow industry standard on one metric and not on another. A choice I disagree with. My point in all this is that people arguing that 256 GB is enough for the baseline are implicitly saying they'd be okay if Apple had chosen 2 high performance cores and 4 GPU cores at the baseline as well.
Oh, never mind, this is just being thrown at the wall... "They did something I hate, so why shouldn't they just do this other thing that I'd hate" isn't a coherent argument.
 
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Joe Dohn

macrumors 6502a
Jul 6, 2020
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The only thing more off-putting about Apple than their upgrade prices is the mentality of some of their most ardent proponents -- Can't handle a hint of dissent from the holy Apple, expressing personal views on the value of the lineup on a forum dedicated to such.

Some people here do give me that "religious vibe". But not just here. Linux, on the other polar opposite, sometimes can also give me that vibe of "Linux doesn't have a problem; you do".
 
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bcortens

macrumors 65816
Aug 16, 2007
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Why? When you say "shouldn't they", what motivates that? If it's a more cost effective way for Apple to meet a customer need, then sure, I guess, but it sounds like a lot of extra cost on Apple's side to adapt MacOS and build another PCB that needs to be maintained and keep legacy SoCs in production for the intended life of a new product...

I don't know Apple's internal cost structure on these so who knows but my going in position would be that it's not a better allocation of resources for the customer's needs.


You're back to pricing things by the cost of the sand...


Oh, never mind, this is just being thrown at the wall... "They did something I hate, so why shouldn't they just do this other thing that I'd hate" isn't a coherent argument.
Because that isn’t the argument I’m making?

Lets try this again…

I don’t think Apple’s lineup is designed to offer good value to consumers, I think it is designed to maximize profits, because, as others have pointed out, Apple figured out that memory and storage are things that consumers value and will thus pay for, if you don’t give them a choice they are even more likely to pay for it. You can argue and go on about free markets blah blah blah but I don’t care, because my argument is that Apple shouldn’t always maximize profits because it both looks bad and detracts from the premium experience. I am not going to get into an argument about the merits and downsides of maximizing profit seeking here, its not the point.

So fundamentally I want Apple to offer a product that offers a premium experience over what is available in PC land but also still isn’t so outrageously priced that it moves from premium to something only the ultra-rich can afford. The Mac has always been priced in the premium section of the market not the ultra rich section, with the minor exception of the $14000 Apple Watch their products have always lived in this zone.

Hence, I think that Apple should offer a 16/512 or 12/512 for around $799, and I argued in this thread that that price point lets them maintain their margins on the base model while upgrading the base model to a more premium experience.

Now, people counter that the person buying the base model doesn’t need 512 GB of storage or 12/16 GB of memory and that if they offered that as the base people wouldn’t even use it. That you are forcing them to buy something they don’t need.

My reason for bringing up the A series is that if all that matters is offering consumers what they need and will use they shouldn’t even offer the M series as the base model. Instead if all that mattered was offering a product that was what people need and will use the MBA and Mac Mini should both have used SoCs based on the A14 rather than the what is essentially the A14X… If the MBA and Mac Mini lines were offered with SoCs based on the A14 (still slightly customized with mac specific changes like the updates to the GPU) they would not have been out of line charging the same prices they do currently. This would satisfy the father in law above and all the other hypothetical users that have been brought up who only use it for email and couch surfing and whatever.
They could have even offered them at a lower price If the goal is to offer the a mass market product at the lowest price possible. This wouldn’t be in addition to the M1 we got it would replace it as the base level of performance for MBA and Mac Mini.

I think Apple should be offering a premium experience and should continually push to make sure that the base of the range of that premium experience moves forward. I am saddened that the Tim era has given up on moving forward in all dimensions and has decided that storage and memory are no longer part of a premium experience. I don’t think Apple should offer cut down products to meet the lowest possible price but that is exactly what the base Mac Mini and MacBook Air are right now.
 

3448322

Cancelled
Jan 27, 2023
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Remember, margin decisions are made for the product line, not a single product alone. Apple doesn’t say “let’s set the margin on the base model and see what we can squeeze from the suckers”, they say “based on decades of sales data we expect a particular mix of sales, and need this margin to justify the product line, so we recommend this pricing model to achieve those aims”.
I agree that they don't make decisions for a single product, not even for a single product line, but for entire device categories over several generations, as much R&D, logistics infrastructure and other such long-term costs are shared. And when determining things like general build quality, available specs and prices for those specs they also take into consideration the expected costs of warranty claims, expected service life of the product and replacement rate by customers. I never claimed that Apple's management decisions are irrational, if anything perhaps they err on being a little too rational. You could claim, and you'd probably be correct, that the light bulb manufacturers I mentioned earlier had no option but to cartelize to offer lower-quality bulbs because the business would cease to be sustainable if people were able to purchase bulbs that last forever for a dime. From their perspective competition on quality was a race to the bottom, and could very well put most of them out of business. Most markets are not simple and perfectly competitive, but complex structures where many sorts of perverse incentives are at play, and the more complex a product is, also the more this is true, more on this below.

What I think the buyers of higher end machines are getting by paying more is a machine more capable of satisfying their higher end needs.

Remember: pricing is set at the level a customer is willing to pay and the company is willing to accept. A customer is willing to pay a price at which they value the product more than the money. At the higher priced end of the lineup customers either value the product more (eg. they can earn more from their business by using it, have a hobby they particularly enjoy, or find status in the item) or the money less (eg. they're wealthy enough they automatically buy up market because it saves them effort evaluating different products or it makes them feel good to spend it). At the lower priced end, they either value the product less (eg. all I need is something to browse the web, write a term paper on, or access my companies online accounting tools) or the money more (eg. they'd like the fancier one but also need to replace their refrigerator this year and can't afford both).

I think Apple is quite aware of the reputational damage that would come from selling people products that don't live as long as those customers expect and the fact there are other companies out there ready to take those customers if Apple disappoints them. If you take out the assumption that everyone but us is a fool, then your theory gets pretty weak.
I don't think that computer buyers, or "everyone but us", are fools. Your assumption, which I think is wrong, is that the PC is highly competitive and that buyers yield significant power in it. They don't. Unlike the horde of fanbois we see here on MacRumors or on social media, most people buy a PC because they need it, not because they particularly fancy it. It's also for them a fairly big-ticket expense incurred only ever so often, which means that changing platforms does not come without a cost, and, depending on personal circumstances, may not be possible at all. In the case of Apple, force-bundling OS and hardware further strengthens their quasi-monopolistic position. And even when jumping ship is an option, the only other realistic alternative for the average consumer is Windows, where, admittedly, there is more competition on hardware, but meaningfully only if you're savvy enough to build your own machine and in a position to forgo a manufacturer's direct support, which most people aren't. So yes, companies like Apple will take customers for a ride, not so much as to take them to the breaking point, they have to offer devices that are fit for purpose after all, but enough to be noticeable if you pay attention, as in the case we're discussing right now, where what makes financial sense for Apple feels like an arbitrary and irrational pricing structure for customers.
 
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3448322

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Some people here do give me that "religious vibe". But not just here. Linux, on the other polar opposite, sometimes can also give me that vibe of "Linux doesn't have a problem; you do".
Hey man, I use Linux too. Linux has loads of problems and quirks. But it's still useful, and guess what, it's free.
 

Analog Kid

macrumors G3
Mar 4, 2003
8,982
11,726
You could claim, and you'd probably be correct, that the light bulb manufacturers I mentioned earlier had no option but to cartelize to offer lower-quality bulbs because the business would cease to be sustainable if people were able to purchase bulbs that last forever for a dime.
If you're going to keep using a hundred year old lightbulb cartel as your benchmark here, you're going to have to show evidence of an international cartel enforcing low quality PCs.

many sorts of perverse incentives are at play, and the more complex a product is, also the more this is true
For someone with such a happy avatar (which I absolutely love, by the way!) you live in a dark, dark place...
 

boss.king

macrumors 603
Apr 8, 2009
6,144
6,909
Now, people counter that the person buying the base model doesn’t need 512 GB of storage or 12/16 GB of memory and that if they offered that as the base people wouldn’t even use it. That you are forcing them to buy something they don’t need.

My reason for bringing up the A series is that if all that matters is offering consumers what they need and will use they shouldn’t even offer the M series as the base model.
I know I said I was out but I just wanted to make one more point regarding the above snippet.

You seem to have this idea that things can only be all about value or all about profit, where in reality it's nuanced. Apple can offer the arguably overpowered M1/M2 chips in the base model because the alternative would likely end up costing them whatever savings they would make. This is offering value for money, just not in a way you want to acknowledge. For ram and storage, it's easier for them to scale things. They can solder one chip vs two more easily than they can manufacture a board compatible with an A-series chip. I'm not as clear on how unified memory works, but it wouldn't surprise me if the 8GB ram models are just binned 16GB models that didn't fully pass validation. It's a balance. With the slower ram modules, it might have been a better move to just up the base config to 512, but that has implications elsewhere in their products too. Should the Pros then start at 1TB? Who foots that cost? And would users really even notice the slower speeds if not pointed out by someone on Youtube? Maybe they weighed the options and decided that the downsides weren't tangible enough to warrant to complication of upping the base model.

Who knows? I'm certainly not saying Apple never makes scummy decisions — look at my post history and you'll see I'm critical of Apple more than I am complimentary — I just think this is one of those things that isn't really issue to the people actually buying the base models.
 

JoshNori

macrumors regular
Aug 5, 2022
176
196
It's not that I merely dislike Tim Cook, Tim Cook gives me the creeps. Corporate CEOs are often of the soulless type, but Tim Cook is at another level of phoniness, strongest reptilian vibes I've ever seen.
Brooooooo. This. 🦖🦖🦖🦖🦖🦖🦖

That vacancy 🏚️ combined with the secrecy 🕵🏻‍♀️ and then it turns its fake and proper on and off 🎚️ like a digital crown on its VR glasses. 🥽

The thing that really disturbs me about Apple and its executives is their God awful, phony appeals to social justice while they literally scrape out hundreds of millions of bucks and give almost nothing back as charity or charitable causes. They could open community centers and do so much good, but they instead hoard cash and ask us to buy a $100 Black Unity watch band made by the revolting slaves in China sending messages over AirDrop to each other. And then they go and participate in the crackdown by shutting down AirDrop. It shows not only what they’re capable of but what they’re willing to do so long as they are given a justification. That’s some Michael Myers caliber sociopath stuff right there. Then the sycophant media and forum trolls cover up for them after, saying it’s “political” to speak the precise truth?

Chillier than the arctic tundra. ☃️🥶🧊
 
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JoshNori

macrumors regular
Aug 5, 2022
176
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I'm going to try this one more time, and maybe it'll get somewhere.

Apple doesn't make more profit off the base end model, they make less. There are no differences between members of a line beyond the storage and everyone agrees the steps in storage are priced higher than they cost. So the difference in price Apple charges from one step to another is more than their difference in cost-- their margin is different for different products in the line and it is lower for the lower end models and higher for the higher end models.

Eliminating the current low end model and forcing those customers to buy a higher spec'd "base" model with margins "the same or even a little higher" will increase Apple's overall profits and price out low end customers-- because they would be eliminating the lower margin products from the line.


They do
, you just don't call it a "base model". They offer exactly the same hardware as the "base" but what you as one opinion might consider "more balanced" and they sell it at a little higher margin. You can have exactly what you claim to want.

But for some reason, you and others are obsessed with the products you don't want. It upsets you for some reason that there is another product in the line below the one you want that is lower margin and less to your liking but that is sufficient to plenty of other customers.
I'm going to try this one more time, and maybe it'll get somewhere.

Apple doesn't make more profit off the base end model, they make less. There are no differences between members of a line beyond the storage and everyone agrees the steps in storage are priced higher than they cost. So the difference in price Apple charges from one step to another is more than their difference in cost-- their margin is different for different products in the line and it is lower for the lower end models and higher for the higher end models.

Eliminating the current low end model and forcing those customers to buy a higher spec'd "base" model with margins "the same or even a little higher" will increase Apple's overall profits and price out low end customers-- because they would be eliminating the lower margin products from the line.


They do
, you just don't call it a "base model". They offer exactly the same hardware as the "base" but what you as one opinion might consider "more balanced" and they sell it at a little higher margin. You can have exactly what you claim to want.

But for some reason, you and others are obsessed with the products you don't want. It upsets you for some reason that there is another product in the line below the one you want that is lower margin and less to your liking but that is sufficient to plenty of other customers.

Apple hinders the base model on its soldered board, and everyone loses because of it, including the people who can’t afford to buy a new computer every 2 years whenever they deliver their latest monster software update which introduces a new feature like Stage Manager that eats RAM for breakfast. 8 GB of RAM is indefensible for any use case when the cost of 16 GB is negligible. Non-upgradable?! Pah! A computer should not be sold assuming a biannual upgrade cycle is even defensible. They need to be snappy for 4-5 years due to the product class. It’s essentially an appliance. Just imagine them making a TV that you wanted to replace every year instead of every 5-7.

They know exactly what they’re doing. Instead of having lowest two models split the difference in profit, the more common needs end up paying the lion’s share. It’s a fake upgrade like giving you a $20 Swiffer with 3 cleaning cloths included just to make you huff and seethe for more. So we (the majority) basically subsidize the eWaste computer for the user who may as well be using a Tamagotchi pet. 8 GB of RAM is not terrible yet, especially on the M1, but in one more release cycle, it’ll be like booting up on a 300 MHz processor with all kinds of irritating swapping and RAM-induced psychosis in the OS. All so they could make a buck today, cash out a few hundo mill, and get Tony Blevins to crap on the masses with his new tits & hot rod…

Besides, this behavior deliberately holds specifications back and keeps the current pace of environmental abuse… all while they gaslight us with a green Apple logo 🍏 and overly whitened smiles.

Anyone defending this behavior is 🧠🧼. They don’t have to do it. They choose to.
 
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sam_dean

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Sep 9, 2022
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Apple hinders the base model on its soldered board, and everyone loses because of it, including the people who can’t afford to buy a new computer every 2 years whenever they deliver their latest monster software update which introduces a new feature like Stage Manager that eats RAM for breakfast. 8 GB of RAM is indefensible for any use case when the cost of 16 GB is negligible. Non-upgradable?! Pah! A computer should not be sold assuming a biannual upgrade cycle is even defensible. They need to be snappy for 4-5 years due to the product class and the waste more than the cost. It’s essentially an appliance.

They know exactly what they’re doing. Instead of having lowest two models split the difference, the more common needs end up paying the lion’s share. So we basically subsidize the crap computer for the user who may as well be using a Tamagotchi pet. 8 GB of RAM is not terrible yet, especially on the M1, but in one more release cycle, it’ll be like booting up on a 300 MHz processor with all kinds of irritating swapping and RAM-induced psychosis in the OS. All so they could make a buck.

Besides, this behavior deliberately holds specifications back in favor of short-term gains, keeping the current pace of eWaste while they gaslight us with a green Apple logo. 🍏

Anyone defending this behavior is 🧠🧼.
I do not mind non-upgrade RAM & SSD if and only if

- contributes to a smaller & more compact device
- improved performance

But I do agree that all base model M2 Macs should maintain current MSRP but with 16GB RAM & 512GB SSD.

Why? Because the last base RAM & SSD bump was in 2012 Macs.

If you want a Mac to last a decade then it will need that much RAM & SSD until year 2033.

By then the base RAM & SSD would become 32GB & 1TB
 
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XboxEvolved

macrumors 6502a
Aug 22, 2004
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1,003
This is a decades-long thought and a big point that a lot of journalists have also brought up forever. In the early oughts, it made more sense because they didn't monopolize memory supplies. Now they basically control the whole supply and it seems to be more of a how much profit can they squeeze out of already high margins.

It also wasn't as big of a deal in the past because you could actually upgrade the ram and storage yourself. Now you are at the whim of Apple for the most part, other than the fact that you can get external storage solutions.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,566
43,547
With same performance/display? Which laptop line are you talking about? I hope you are looking king at their premium PCs, not the bottom of the barrel budget units.
There are PC laptops that can go toe to toe against the MacBook Air. I know that's shocking for some to here because many people here have the blinders on and think that Apple is the only company to provide fast, cool, well made laptops that have long lasting batteries

I'm not saying PC laptops are better, but I am saying that there are laptops that are on par with Macs

 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,301
19,279
There are PC laptops that can go toe to toe against the MacBook Air. I know that's shocking for some to here because many people here have the blinders on and think that Apple is the only company to provide fast, cool, well made laptops that have long lasting batteries

I'm not saying PC laptops are better, but I am saying that there are laptops that are on par with Macs

I never said that the MBA is without competition, we were talking about prices.

- M2 MBA with 16GB/1TB costs $1899 in Apple Store
- X1 Carbon with 1260p/16GB/1TB/high-res display costs $1,784 in Lenovo store (although Lenovo claims this is an "offer" and the actual price is $3600)
- ZenBook 13S OLED 16GB/1TB is $1653 on Amazon

Which illustrates the point I am making: prices in the premium market will be comparable for similar configurations. Sure, Air is the most expensive of three, but it also comes with faster real-world CPU/GPU and better battery life.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,566
43,547
I never said that the MBA is without competition, we were talking about prices.
I said many people. Folks here tend to be that if it doesn't have a fruit logo, then its bad.

Lenovo has a perpetual sale, and so its hard to nail down actual price but generally its about 40% less then what msrp, so its conceivable to be considered on par with the MBA price wise, though it was slower in performance.

The Zenbook on Amazon does cost 1653, but comparable MBA will run you between 1800 dollars.
 
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