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bcortens

macrumors 65816
Aug 16, 2007
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Ontario Canada
This is industry-wide trend, not Tim Cook. Why should Apple be more generous with specs than other manufacturers? It is only from the second half of 2022 that we see Dell and co. increase the base SSD capacity to 512GB on their premium laptops (still 8GB RAM though). If this trend continues we might get 16GB/512GB as standard on the Air in a year or two.
I could also go through and compare product updates which would also show the Tim era's stagnation. Many products go years and years without updates when a much smaller company under Steve managed to mostly upgrade things every year. You can argue that the company now has more products, but I would counter that the number of new products is far outweighed by the number of new staff, and the Mac lineup is very similar in size to the end of the Steve era (when it was updated yearly).

Edit: For example, where is the M2 iMac? I know that they are struggling with the Mac Pro so I forgive them that given the complexities of the architecture and platform transition but the M2 iMac should already be here.
 
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nvmls

Suspended
Mar 31, 2011
1,941
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Keep "as is" the

- Apple chip core counts
- screen size
- at respective price points

But double the current

- GB of memory
- GB/TB of storage
- SSD throughput & top off at 7.5GB/s

And all Macs would be "value for money"

For example a $1199 2022 Macbook Air M2 5nm would have
  • 8-Core CPU
  • 8-Core GPU
  • 16GB Unified Memory
  • 512GB SSD Storage @ 5.6GB/s
Final macOS Security Update would be released by 2032, a decade later.

Because 8GB memory & 256GB SSD @ 1.5GB/s should be the domain of a $699 2024 Macbook 12" or $299-399 2024 Mac mini that are based on a 3nm A17 Bionic chip from a 2023 iPhone 15 Pro. Mac mini's enclosure would be based on 2022 Apple TV 4K.
Apple doesn't want "value for money", they want to squeeze every penny from you.
 

MauiPa

macrumors 68040
Apr 18, 2018
3,430
5,080
Your statement is of course, true. Macs would also be more value for the money if they were free. Yay free.

Frankly this is a stale old argument. I did some research to see if I could find these really cheap high performance windows PCs that people seem to imply are out there. I found a razor that was uber heavy, had crappy battery life and was expensive, didn't even sport the Geekbench scores the M2 Pro or Max do. did I mention expensive?

So yes, we would all like to have cheaper and better products, but it is a competitive market, other companies do not give away their products either.

I totally get you, I do think that the upgrade prices on Ram and SSDs is high
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,301
19,279
I could also go through and compare product updates which would also show the Tim era's stagnation. Many products go years and years without updates when a much smaller company under Steve managed to mostly upgrade things every year. You can argue that the company now has more products, but I would counter that the number of new products is far outweighed by the number of new staff, and the Mac lineup is very similar in size to the end of the Steve era (when it was updated yearly).

Or you could look at how often Apple partners introduced product updates after 2014. Kind of difficult to get that new Mac out if the company whose CPUs you are using hasn't introduced a new chip in a while... Much of the Mac "golden age" under Steve Jobs was thanks to predictable and steady product refreshes from their partners. Intel was bringing out new CPU revision every six months like clockwork, which allowed Apple to refresh Macs two times per year as well. If you study the timeline you will see that Mac refresh cycles started slipping exactly the moment Intel started stumbling.

Can't say that I am a big fan of Tim Cook, he doesn't strike me as a visionary or a person of particular passion, and there is too much bean counting and profit optimisation and not enough striving for excellence under his leadership, but he had to steer the company during some pretty crappy times, and I have to say he did it fairly well. Not to mention that he led Apple though a major risk of a technological transition, which hasn't been executed perfectly, but then, Covid, Russia... can't blame Cook for all these things either.
 
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bcortens

macrumors 65816
Aug 16, 2007
1,273
1,628
Ontario Canada
Your statement is of course, true. Macs would also be more value for the money if they were free. Yay free.

Frankly this is a stale old argument. I did some research to see if I could find these really cheap high performance windows PCs that people seem to imply are out there. I found a razor that was uber heavy, had crappy battery life and was expensive, didn't even sport the Geekbench scores the M2 Pro or Max do. did I mention expensive?

So yes, we would all like to have cheaper and better products, but it is a competitive market, other companies do not give away their products either.

I totally get you, I do think that the upgrade prices on Ram and SSDs is high
As you ignored my post I will point out again.

Tim cooks apple is all squeezing out every last penny...
Aside from the fact that storage and memory flatlined when he took over he also puts out de-contented base models.

The base iMac for example is ridiculous and shouldn't exist. They have to manufacture an entire SKU just to build one with two fewer USB ports, 1 fewer fan (leading to a hotter machine as found in independent testing) and without the gigabit ethernet power adapter. This model seems to me to exist only to drive people to the middle model.

Or you could look at how often Apple partners introduced product updates after 2014. Kind of difficult to get that new Mac out if the company whose CPUs you are using hasn't introduced a new chip in a while... Much of the Mac "golden age" under Steve Jobs was thanks to predictable and steady product refreshes from their partners. Intel was bringing out new CPU revision every six months like clockwork, which allowed Apple to refresh Macs two times per year as well. If you study the timeline you will see that Mac refresh cycles started slipping exactly the moment Intel started stumbling.

Can't say that I am a big fan of Tim Cook, he doesn't strike me as a visionary or a person of particular passion, and there is too much bean counting and profit optimisation and not enough striving for excellence under his leadership, but he had to steer the company during some pretty crappy times, and I have to say he did it fairly well. Not to mention that he led Apple though a major risk of a technological transition, which hasn't been executed perfectly, but then, Covid, Russia... can't blame Cook for all these things either.

Consider the Mac mini:
2012-2014 Mac mini - decontented
2014-2018 Mac mini - ignored despite new CPUs from Intel that would fit in it

Or the Mac Pro
While the trashcan was a thermal corner there were Broadwell Xeons, Skylake Xeons, Cascade Lake Xeons. All of which had better performance per watt even if Apple would not have been able to put in the absolute max core count chip.
The GPU front also stumbled, there were subsequent AMD GPUs that could have fit. I also think they could have done more optimizations in that chassis to improve the performance. They just abandoned it.

I know that Intel stumbled, but Mac releases stumbled more than Intel did.

Tim Cook has lead the company through the Apple Silicon transition in an okay way. However his relentless focus on monetization at the expense of customer UX is clear throughout the company.


Edit: I don't expect yearly Mac Pro updates, it is a machine that really doesn't need yearly updates. It should get updates more frequently than every 6 years however. The 2019 model is going to be at least 3.5 years old when the M series replaces it, and it could be 4 years old if it takes till this fall to get an M2 Extreme or whatever we're calling it.
 

djcerla

macrumors 68020
Apr 23, 2015
2,311
11,993
Italy
You got it backwards: it’s very clear now that the base configuration is the second tier, not the first.

The first tier (the actual base model) is a stripped down version offered to the most price-sensitive group of customers, the one you buy to a student or your mom.
 

bcortens

macrumors 65816
Aug 16, 2007
1,273
1,628
Ontario Canada
You got it backwards: it’s very clear now that the base configuration is the second tier, not the first.

The first tier (the actual base model) is a stripped down version offered to the most price-sensitive group of customers, the one you buy to a student or your mom.
I disagree. I care more that they haven't updated the storage than the memory personally.

Storage is something that in modern Macs is impossible to upgrade later, but storage is the thing that most non-tech people will struggle with when they run out. My mom has a 256 GB of storage MacBook Air and she constantly struggles with the storage being full. She doesn't want to keep an external drive plugged in and she lives in a rural area with bad internet. The base storage should be higher for non-tech savvy users not lower.
 
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JouniS

macrumors 6502a
Nov 22, 2020
613
377
I think the whole issue here is that Apple advertises a premium experience, and people think that artificially lowering SSD speeds doesn't offer that premium experience.
I don't think it was artificial. It's more likely that the rest of the world moved on and Apple was not willing to increase SSD sizes in the base models.

Back when the M1 was launched, the smallest cost-effective SSD chips of the kind Apple was using were 128 GB. To achieve the desired speed, the M1 used two chips and the Pro/Max used four.

Then the 128 GB chips became obsolete and the smallest cost-effective size increased to 256 GB. The base storage sizes in the M2 Macs were now too small to achieve in a reasonable way. Apple only had unreasonable choices to make. They could pay higher prices for obsolete 128 GB chips. They could use fewer but larger chips, lowering performance. Or they could increase SSD sizes in the base models. Apple chose the second option, probably because it was the only one that did not increase price.
 

bcortens

macrumors 65816
Aug 16, 2007
1,273
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Ontario Canada
I don't think it was artificial. It's more likely that the rest of the world moved on and Apple was not willing to increase SSD sizes in the base models.

Back when the M1 was launched, the smallest cost-effective SSD chips of the kind Apple was using were 128 GB. To achieve the desired speed, the M1 used two chips and the Pro/Max used four.

Then the 128 GB chips became obsolete and the smallest cost-effective size increased to 256 GB. The base storage sizes in the M2 Macs were now too small to achieve in a reasonable way. Apple only had unreasonable choices to make. They could pay higher prices for obsolete 128 GB chips. They could use fewer but larger chips, lowering performance. Or they could increase SSD sizes in the base models. Apple chose the second option, probably because it was the only one that did not increase price.
I doubt it was to keep the same price. The cost of flash storage has dropped quite a bit over time. You can get an SKHynix 7000 GB/s 2TB drive for $400 CAD, you can go 6000 GB/s 2TB for $250 CAD from Crucial... Apple even saves money relative to some of these because they don't have to include some of the storage controllers because they are built into the M series SoC

Edit: Crucial sells a 500 GB 5GB/s flash drive for just $65 CAD... Apple's prices are outrageous
 
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usagora

macrumors 601
Nov 17, 2017
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Well, isn't that sort of axiomatic? If you keep ANY product the same price but add more or better features, obviously it would make it "more value for the money" 😂
 

JouniS

macrumors 6502a
Nov 22, 2020
613
377
I doubt it was to keep the same price. The cost of flash storage has dropped quite a bit over time. You can get an SKHynix 7000 GB/s 2TB drive for $400 CAD, you can go 6000 GB/s 2TB for $250 CAD from Crucial... Apple even saves money relative to some of these because they don't have to include some of the storage controllers because they are built into the M series SoC
The prices have gone down, but not by that much. I bought a 2 TB Samsung SSD for my gaming PC for ~$250 USD around the time the M1 was released. Today a comparable model sells for ~$180. Assuming that this is a representative example, Apple would have to pay more for 512 GB today than it paid for 256 GB in late 2020.
 

bcortens

macrumors 65816
Aug 16, 2007
1,273
1,628
Ontario Canada
The prices have gone down, but not by that much. I bought a 2 TB Samsung SSD for my gaming PC for ~$250 USD around the time the M1 was released. Today a comparable model sells for ~$180. Assuming that this is a representative example, Apple would have to pay more for 512 GB today than it paid for 256 GB in late 2020.
My reference point is older than 2020 though, I’m looking back to 2012 to look at the whole Tim era. It’s more that we should be seeing doubling of storage every 3-4 years given flash storage prices over this span but we aren‘t… instead storage doubled once from 128 GB to 256 GB when we should be at at least 512 GB if not 1TB. Look at how storage stagnated across the whole Mac line in the last ten years. 2010 or 2012 are a good starting points because that was when the first all flash MacBook Air and MacBook Pro launched.

MacBook air
2010 - 64GB
2013 -128 GB
2020 - 256 GB

It took apple 7 years to double storage again… utterly ridiculous.

Edit:
MacBook Pro Storage
2012 - 128 GB
2016 - 256 GB


It took 4 years to get 256 GB and now we have been waiting 6 years (since they were just updated and kept the same storage capacity it’s going to be at least 7 years).
 
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bcortens

macrumors 65816
Aug 16, 2007
1,273
1,628
Ontario Canada
The prices have gone down, but not by that much. I bought a 2 TB Samsung SSD for my gaming PC for ~$250 USD around the time the M1 was released. Today a comparable model sells for ~$180. Assuming that this is a representative example, Apple would have to pay more for 512 GB today than it paid for 256 GB in late 2020.
Just checked, in 2016 Samsung 2TB was $1299 US, then $649 in 2018, so we have seen massive prove drops in that time…

Edit: and 500 GB fell from $160 in 2018 to less than $75 today…
 

generdude

macrumors member
Feb 8, 2013
60
44
Keep "as is" the

- Apple chip core counts
- screen size
- at respective price points

But double the current

- GB of memory
- GB/TB of storage
- SSD throughput & top off at 7.5GB/s

And all Macs would be "value for money"

For example a $1199 2022 Macbook Air M2 5nm would have
  • 8-Core CPU
  • 8-Core GPU
  • 16GB Unified Memory
  • 512GB SSD Storage @ 5.6GB/s
Final macOS Security Update would be released by 2032, a decade later.

Because 8GB memory & 256GB SSD @ 1.5GB/s should be the domain of a $699 2024 Macbook 12" or $299-399 2024 Mac mini that are based on a 3nm A17 Bionic chip from a 2023 iPhone 15 Pro. Mac mini's enclosure would be based on 2022 Apple TV 4K.
Get used to it. Apple's main concern is satisfying investors, stock holders. The days of Steve Jobs' vision has long passed.
 
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chouseworth

macrumors 6502
Dec 3, 2012
279
770
Wake Forest, NC
It was never a strategy for Apple to be the market share leader in the personal computing segment. And of course it is not. As for its value as a company, that’s another story, and under Cook’s leadership it has become one of the world’s two or three most highly valued. As a shareholder, I am quite happy that Tim knows what he’s doing.
 

ApplesAreSweet&Sour

macrumors 68000
Sep 18, 2018
1,936
3,522
Keep "as is" the

- Apple chip core counts
- screen size
- at respective price points

But double the current

- GB of memory
- GB/TB of storage
- SSD throughput & top off at 7.5GB/s

And all Macs would be "value for money"

For example a $1199 2022 Macbook Air M2 5nm would have
  • 8-Core CPU
  • 8-Core GPU
  • 16GB Unified Memory
  • 512GB SSD Storage @ 5.6GB/s
Final macOS Security Update would be released by 2032, a decade later.

Because 8GB memory & 256GB SSD @ 1.5GB/s should be the domain of a $699 2024 Macbook 12" or $299-399 2024 Mac mini that are based on a 3nm A17 Bionic chip from a 2023 iPhone 15 Pro. Mac mini's enclosure would be based on 2022 Apple TV 4K.
Why do you think Apple wants its buyers to consider its products "value for money"?

Apple, like most other manufacturers of consumer electronics, want you to buy as many of its products and upgrade them as frequently as possible.

What we see being done to M2 SSDs on the 256GB and 512GB options is a pretty clear example of what Apple's true intentions are -Perpetual growth every single year

Having Mac buyers sit on their Macs for 5-7-10 years because they are still fast and haven't degraded much doesn't align with that goal.
 
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robbietop

Suspended
Jun 7, 2017
876
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Good Ol' US of A
"Guys, I'm not high, I'm serious here. Homes would have more value for money if they came fully furnished but for the same price as empty. Look, I know Subway charges for chips and a drink, but there's more value for money if they just give it to me for the price of the sandwich I bought. Just give me the Afterburner kit for my Mac Pro! I bought the Mac Pro! It's more value for money. C'mon man. And while we're at it, I think the iPhone should just come with a case. The nice leather one, yeah."
 

wave84

macrumors member
Sep 11, 2014
76
182
Anyone defending Apple over this topic must be drinking some pretty heavy kool-aid.

I mean, they released the 12" Macbook in 2015 with 8/256 and Retina screen.
Today you can buy an almost identical M2 Air (with a chip that is probably costing them less money than Intel's) at roughly the same price (in Europe it's actually more expensive than the 12" Macbook was at launch, 1499 eu vs 1449 eu).
8 years later!!! How insane is that?

There is no excuse for the base models not having 16GB of RAM and/or 512 GB of storage, especially with the atrocious upgrade pricing. Their entire strategy is consumer hostile at this point.
 
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bcortens

macrumors 65816
Aug 16, 2007
1,273
1,628
Ontario Canada
Anyone defending Apple over this topic must be drinking some pretty heavy kool-aid.

I mean, they released the 12" Macbook in 2015 with 8/256 and Retina screen.
Today you can buy an almost identical M2 Air (with a chip that is probably costing them less money than Intel's) at roughly the same price (in Europe it's actually more expensive than the 12" Macbook was at launch, 1499 eu vs 1449 eu).
8 years later!!! How insane is that?

There is no excuse for the base models not having 16GB of RAM and/or 512 GB of storage, especially with the atrocious upgrade pricing. Their entire strategy is consumer hostile at this point.
Yep - I’ve posted timelines and prices showing how Apple is out to lunch on this topic but people seem to have internalized a defence of the status quo.
 
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ThomasJL

macrumors 68000
Oct 16, 2008
1,612
3,563
Macs would be more value for money if Apple went back to using replaceable industry-standard RAM and hard drives.

But Tim Cook’s greed will not permit it.
 
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redheeler

macrumors G3
Oct 17, 2014
8,423
8,845
Colorado, USA
Memory and storage prices are better now than they were 5 years ago, especially storage prices. Apple was offering extremely competitive base models prior to the Tim Cook era. Nowadays I don't recommend the base models anymore because as needs have grown (especially photo storage needs) the storage capacity didn't grow with it.
You're correct. The situation was far worse a few years ago when base model iMacs and Mac minis were shipping with 5400 RPM drives, that made them a horrifically slow experience for a brand new Mac. Now I can at least see someone getting the base model Mac mini and being happy with everyday performance, though cost cutting with things like SSD speed has shown this attitude toward the base models has stuck around.
 

Apple_Robert

Contributor
Sep 21, 2012
34,527
50,101
In the middle of several books.
You can double SSD and RAM when buying a BTO. There a plenty of people who don't need to keep up with the MR herd. Asking Apple to make you feel you get good value for your money is attained by voting with your wallet not asking them to raise the price by 30-40% because you feel it should be the minimum.
 

Jimmdean

macrumors 6502a
Mar 21, 2007
636
627
macs have only ever been a good value at the very bottom (where prices were low) and at the very top (where the price to performance ratio beat competitors offerings). most of the people on this forum live in the middle though, where the value is terrible. My theory has always been if you can't live with the base model of something don't buy it. now if you don't care about value that's another story...
 

sam_dean

Suspended
Original poster
Sep 9, 2022
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Anyone defending Apple over this topic must be drinking some pretty heavy kool-aid.

I mean, they released the 12" Macbook in 2015 with 8/256 and Retina screen.
Today you can buy an almost identical M2 Air (with a chip that is probably costing them less money than Intel's) at roughly the same price (in Europe it's actually more expensive than the 12" Macbook was at launch, 1499 eu vs 1449 eu).
8 years later!!! How insane is that?

There is no excuse for the base models not having 16GB of RAM and/or 512 GB of storage, especially with the atrocious upgrade pricing. Their entire strategy is consumer hostile at this point.
That is the point I am making.

Base model Macs with 8GB RAM & 256GB SSD largely stayed stagnant since year model 2012 Macs.

In 2023, 16GB RAM & 512GB SSD should be found in M2 Macs such as

- $599 Mac mini
- $1199 Macbook Air 13"
- $1299 Macbook Pro 13"
- $1299 iMac 24"

While, 32GB RAM & 1TB SSD should be found in M2 Pro Macs such as

- $1299 Mac mini
- $1999 MBP 14"
- $2499 MBP 16"

64GB RAM & 2TB SSD should be found in M2 Max Macs such as

- $3099 MBP 14"
- $3499 MBP 16"

For Mac Studio

- $1999 M1 Max 64GB RAM & 1TB SSD
- $3999 M1 Ultra 128GB RAM & 2TB SSD

The Mac chips included do not need to change at these price points as they're plenty superior to anything Intel/AMD are making based on performance per Watt metrics.

Apple just comes short at RAM & SSD. Improve those points and they're golden.

Only place 8GB RAM & 256GB SSD would be permissible would be Macs based on a 3nm A17 Bionic chip such as

- $699 Macbook 12"
- $299-399 Mac mini that used the smaller enclosure of a 2022 Apple TV 4K
 
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Analog Kid

macrumors G3
Mar 4, 2003
8,982
11,729
Anyone defending Apple over this topic must be drinking some pretty heavy kool-aid.

I mean, they released the 12" Macbook in 2015 with 8/256 and Retina screen.
Today you can buy an almost identical M2 Air (with a chip that is probably costing them less money than Intel's) at roughly the same price (in Europe it's actually more expensive than the 12" Macbook was at launch, 1499 eu vs 1449 eu).
8 years later!!! How insane is that?

There is no excuse for the base models not having 16GB of RAM and/or 512 GB of storage, especially with the atrocious upgrade pricing. Their entire strategy is consumer hostile at this point.

So, what exactly makes the 2015 12" MB and today's M2 Air "identical"? And shouldn't identical things be priced identically?

FWIW, 1449EUR in 2015 is equivalent to about 1758EUR today.
 
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