Macs would be more "value for money" if Apple doubled RAM & SSD across the board

[Analog Kid]

macs have only ever been a good value at the very bottom (where prices were low) and at the very top (where the price to performance ratio beat competitors offerings). most of the people on this forum live in the middle though, where the value is terrible. My theory has always been if you can't live with the base model of something don't buy it. now if you don't care about value that's another story...

It doesn't work that way. For one, different people value things differently. Second, it's not about more or less value, it's a binary decision. If the product is worth more to someone than they money, people will trade the money for the product.

Everyone cares about value, but everyone values products and money differently so make different decisions.

 

[sam_dean]

It doesn't work that way. For one, different people value things differently. Second, it's not about more or less value, it's a binary decision. If the product is worth more to someone than they money, people will trade the money for the product.

Everyone cares about value, but everyone values products and money differently so make different decisions.

I think relative to the competition.

 

[Analog Kid]

I think relative to the competition.

Everyone does.

 

[boss.king]

macs have only ever been a good value at the very bottom (where prices were low) and at the very top (where the price to performance ratio beat competitors offerings). most of the people on this forum live in the middle though, where the value is terrible. My theory has always been if you can't live with the base model of something don't buy it. now if you don't care about value that's another story...

That's a wild and terrible theory. Following that logic, I'd have ended up with a 14" M1 MacBook Pro rather than my M2 Air, which would be more expensive, less portable, have worse battery life, and be wildly overpowered for my needs. In buying a BTO MacBook Air I got the exact specs I want in a form-factor I prefer, for less money. I absolutely care about value for money, and regularly buy used electronics over new for the awesome value they provide, but in this case there was no other option that offered the features and specs I wanted for less money than a middle-of-the-pack build (magsafe, Apple Silicon, 16GB RAM/512GB storage).

 

[Onimusha370]

I agree... people who'd buy base model aren't doing so to edit 4K video. At most 1080p or even 720p as the most taxing use case.

Not sure if this is a troll? I use my 8gb iMac all the time for multicam 4K editing - works great

 

[bcortens]

You're correct. The situation was far worse a few years ago when base model iMacs and Mac minis were shipping with 5400 RPM drives, that made them a horrifically slow experience for a brand new Mac. Now I can at least see someone getting the base model Mac mini and being happy with everyday performance, though cost cutting with things like SSD speed has shown this attitude toward the base models has stuck around.

Disagree - at least with the old models they weren’t running out of space after only a few years.

So, what exactly makes the 2015 12" MB and today's M2 Air "identical"? And shouldn't identical things be priced identically?

FWIW, 1449EUR in 2015 is equivalent to about 1758EUR today.

The point, that people here are missing on purpose or because they have had a deep drink of the koolaid, is that flash and memory capacities have stagnated while prices over the same 10 year span have fallen by 4x or more.

 

[bcortens]

Macs would be more value for money if Apple went back to using replaceable industry-standard RAM and hard drives.

But Tim Cook’s greed will not permit it.

Disagree. Unified memory is a superior experience and the number of memory sticks you’d have to get to achieve similar bandwidth makes this unfeasible.

 

[boss.king]

Disagree - at least with the old models they weren’t running out of space after only a few years.


The point, that people here are missing on purpose or because they have had a deep drink of the koolaid, is that flash and memory capacities have stagnated while prices over the same 10 year span have fallen by 4x or more.

I don't think anyone is disputing that Apple heavily overcharges for ram and storage bumps. The main point I'm seeing is that the average user is better served by a lower entry price than by a higher-specced machine.

 

[bcortens]

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that Apple overcharges for ram and storage bumps. The main point I'm seeing is that the average user is better served by a lower entry price than by a higher-specced machine.

They don’t just overcharge - if you look at my posts in this thread I added info showing that once Tim Cook took over fully that ram and storage increases stagnated and became yet another way for him to nickel and dime consumers while the price for these things at retail has fallen dramatically (4x drops at minimum over the last 10 years) but we have at most a 2x bump in base capacity. And that 2x bump was nearly 5 years ago now.

 

[sam_dean]

Not sure if this is a troll? I use my 8gb iMac all the time for multicam 4K editing - works great

How is your Page Outs and Render times per minute of 4K video.

 

[boss.king]

They don’t just overcharge - if you look at my posts in this thread I added info showing that once Tim Cook took over fully that ram and storage increases stagnated and became yet another way for him to nickel and dime consumers while the price for these things at retail has fallen dramatically (4x drops at minimum over the last 10 years) but we have at most a 2x bump in base capacity. And that 2x bump was nearly 5 years ago now.

I don't know what you want me to say. That's what overcharging means, we're all on the same page here.

 

[Analog Kid]

The point, that people here are missing on purpose or because they have had a deep drink of the koolaid, is that flash and memory capacities have stagnated while prices over the same 10 year span have fallen by 4x or more.

The point, that you are missing while you're busy trying to imply everyone else is corrupted or dumb, is that more has changed in the products you're comparing than just memory.

 

[mcled53]

Think of the children! Why stop at doubling? Triple or quadruple everything (for the same price of course).

All children need more disk and memory by 2 orders of magnitude than their parents. x[2,3,4] is way too small.

 

[bcortens]

The point, that you are missing while you're busy trying to imply everyone else is corrupted or dumb, is that more has changed in the products you're comparing than just memory.

That’s a red herring and irrelevant. Throughout the Jobs era (when we got doubling of storage and memory every 2 years) we also got regular CPU and GPU updates, regular chassis redesigns, regular improvements to wifi, whole new form factors in things like the MacBook Air. the idea that storage and memory should stagnate because other things have improved is completely irrelevant because for that argument to make sense in the jobs era other things would have had to stay the same while storage and memory changed, which was not the case.

In the previous era macs advanced across the board, however in the Tim Cook era macs have stopped advancing at the same pace on the storage and memory front all while the price per GB has improved such that they should have advanced further than they did. Given the price apple charges for BTO options is wildly out of pace with the rest of the industry we can see it is purely mercurial.

Additionally macs like the entry level iMac show a callous disregard to the user, the gigabit Ethernet could be debated but cutting out 2 USB ports necessitating a whole new back case to be manufactured for 1 model is just penny pinching to an absurd degree.

Edit: for some reason we’ve all gotten so used to the stinginess of Tim Cook that we’re happy to just accept the status quo when if we look further back than 5 years can see stagnation and a general disregard for regular updates of the product stack. Macs are just one example, the iPad line has received extremely haphazard updates over the years as well.

 

[Analog Kid]

That’s a red herring and irrelevant. Throughout the Jobs era (when we got doubling of storage and memory every 2 years) we also got regular CPU and GPU updates, regular chassis redesigns, regular improvements to wifi, whole new form factors in things like the MacBook Air. the idea that storage and memory should stagnate because other things have improved is completely irrelevant because for that argument to make sense in the jobs era other things would have had to stay the same while storage and memory changed, which was not the case.

In the previous era macs advanced across the board, however in the Tim Cook era macs have stopped advancing at the same pace on the storage and memory front all while the price per GB has improved such that they should have advanced further than they did. Given the price apple charges for BTO options is wildly out of pace with the rest of the industry we can see it is purely mercurial.

Additionally macs like the entry level iMac show a callous disregard to the user, the gigabit Ethernet could be debated but cutting out 2 USB ports necessitating a whole new back case to be manufactured for 1 model is just penny pinching to an absurd degree.

Edit: for some reason we’ve all gotten so used to the stinginess of Tim Cook that we’re happy to just accept the status quo when if we look further back than 5 years can see stagnation and a general disregard for regular updates of the product stack. Macs are just one example, the iPad line has received extremely haphazard updates over the years as well.

I love how you compare an old Intel MacBook that was discontinued in large part because it was so underpowered with an M2 Air in a whole new chassis and say Apple has stopped advancing. They've built a processor that's turned the industry on its head. I think you're looking at this like if you know how many sq mm of silicon are in something you know what it cost to build because it's only worth the price of the sand.

And then there's this absolute gem:

but cutting out 2 USB ports necessitating a whole new back case to be manufactured for 1 model is just penny pinching

they designed and manufactured a whole new housing to pinch pennies...


But Jobs would never worry about keeping costs down and prices high:

for some reason we’ve all gotten so used to the stinginess of Tim Cook that we’re happy to just accept the status quo

Who's this "we" you speak of?

But, sure, mark my responses with angry emoji because I disagree. That's what open minded discourse is all about...

 

[bcortens]

I love how you compare an old Intel MacBook that was discontinued in large part because it was so underpowered with an M2 Air in a whole new chassis and say Apple has stopped advancing. They've built a processor that's turned the industry on its head. I think you're looking at this like if you know how many sq mm of silicon are in something you know what it cost to build because it's only worth the price of the sand.

And then there's this absolute gem:

they designed and manufactured a whole new housing to pinch pennies...


But Jobs would never worry about keeping costs down and prices high:
View attachment 2148900


Who's this "we" you speak of?

But, sure, mark my responses with angry emoji because I disagree. That's what open minded discourse is all about...

If there was a better disagree emoji I would use it… we have an angry face and positive options, there is no simple thumbs down available….

I didn’t bring up the MacBook, I was always using iMac or MacBook Air in my posts.

I’m not saying Apple didn’t care about gross margins, my point is this

Given how flash and memory prices have fallen by more than 5x in the 12 years Tim has been in charge we should see more than a doubling in the base models storage and or memory.

The Tim era is defined by contradiction. I believe that Apple has never produced such a technically impressive portfolio of products, from Air Pods, to Home Pod to the M2 series, to the iPad Pro, Its all very very impressive. However there is also evidence that he has allowed mercurial interests to infect the product line in some ways. The memory and storage on macs are just one example, the nagging if you don’t sign up for all of apples services is another. Keeping the base storage and ram low encourages users to buy upgraded models that let apple absolutely gouge you on the price of ram and storage.

Edit: it’s as if the bean counters have a note to product to make sure that they can optimize money extracted per purchase (via BTO price gouging). During the jobs era it was just easier to recommend the base model, I don’t recommend the base model any more.

 

[BrightDarkSky]

The people paying $599 for a Mac mini aren’t concerned about the speed differences between a 2-module vs. 1-module SSD, or 8 vs 16 GB RAM.

People act like just because you are cost-conscious or have a small budget MUST mean that you don't want the most for your money.

I really don't get this thinking. Of course the general market is not super hip on how RAM affects a machine.. with that said, It is assuming very much (wrong) that people don't care about eight or 16 gigs of RAM. I'm glad that these people that make these statements have plenty of science to back it up and are just not talking out of their butts.

That's not to mention the businesses and households with multiple computers. Or pros like myself that would love to buy a second mini mac would never buy a 8 gig machine even if it is this cheap.

So yeah you guys are definitely correct, At least in being correct and that you don't know what you're talking about or have a limited spectrum of what range of consumers there are out there.

General assumptions....Hmmmmm.

 

[bcortens]

People act like just because you are cost-conscious or have a small budget MUST mean that you don't want the most for your money.

I really don't get this thinking. It's a lot of uneducated consumers, It is assuming very much that people don't care about eight or 16 gigs of RAM. I'm glad that these people that make these statements have plenty of science to back it up and are just not talking out of their butts.

Oh wait . Hmmmmm

I personally think that the 1 module vs 2 is less important than capacity, a bunch of YouTubers making a big deal about storage speed seems kind of silly to me. We have never had it so good from a storage perspective and dropping back a bit on storage speed doesn’t hurt as much as continuing to charge absurd prices just to get a more reasonable 512 GB. My mom, retired and very price conscious, does not care about 7GBPS storage, she cares about capacity, 512 GB would give her far more breathing room while her 256 MBA is already maxed out and she has to play the external hard drive dance.

 

[BrightDarkSky]

I personally think that the 1 module vs 2 is less important than capacity, a bunch of YouTubers making a big deal about storage speed seems kind of silly to me. We have never had it so good from a storage perspective and dropping back a bit on storage speed doesn’t hurt as much as continuing to charge absurd prices just to get a more reasonable 512 GB. My mom, retired and very price conscious, does not care about 7GBPS storage, she cares about capacity, 512 GB would give her far more breathing room while her 256 MBA is already maxed out and she has to play the external hard drive dance.

That's a red herring. The statement is stupid and it's over- generalizes the various types of consumers on the market. These kind of statements are always stupid and they're always wrong.

But people who think they know so much always keep making them because it makes them feel good at night. Or at least in comment sections.

The comment is/was wrong, it's uneducated, it's misleading, it's just bad.

 

[Hrududu]

Apple isn't interested in giving you more value as much as they are interested in making higher profits.

 

[redheeler]

Disagree - at least with the old models they weren’t running out of space after only a few years.

Correct, because no one wanted to use them that long since they were a bad experience from day one.

 

[sam_dean]

I personally think that the 1 module vs 2 is less important than capacity, a bunch of YouTubers making a big deal about storage speed seems kind of silly to me. We have never had it so good from a storage perspective and dropping back a bit on storage speed doesn’t hurt as much as continuing to charge absurd prices just to get a more reasonable 512 GB. My mom, retired and very price conscious, does not care about 7GBPS storage, she cares about capacity, 512 GB would give her far more breathing room while her 256 MBA is already maxed out and she has to play the external hard drive dance.

The smaller the storage size is the less of a priority is the read/write speeds as we assume the typical use case of said storage size.

Like say base models with 8GB RAM & 256GB SSD. Will people who are that serious or who does paid work editing 4K video and other large file size work in the double digit or even triple digit GB file size opt for that Mac SKU?

Very unlikely so the write/read throughput becomes less of an importance or have utility.

Users with that tiny of RAM & SSD may just use it for typical non-media non-science tasks.

It is like defaulting all Macs with 10Gbit Ethernet. It makes sense on the iMac Pro, Mac Pro and Mac Studio. BTO on a Mac mini makes sense for it.

8GB RAM & 256GB SSD reflects ~80% of all Macs shipped. The other ~19% are pre-selected Mac SKUs.

 

[bcortens]

Correct, because no one wanted to use them that long since they were a bad experience from day one.

I kept my early Intel Core2 white MacBook for about 6 or 7 years, can’t remember exactly now, but I stopped using it not because of storage speed but because it stopped getting OS updates, I maxed out the ram and it was still pretty usable, I think people today exaggerate the difficulty of using one for a long time. It wasn’t terrible if you had enough ram to avoid hitting the disk swap.

Edit: To be fair it was used most when I was a student so my needs weren’t as high as they are today for work… so for work I would have needed/wanted a new one sooner.

 

[redheeler]

I kept my early Intel Core2 white MacBook for about 6 or 7 years, can’t remember exactly now, but I stopped using it not because of storage speed but because it stopped getting OS updates, I maxed out the ram and it was still pretty usable, I think people today exaggerate the difficulty of using one for a long time. It wasn’t terrible if you had enough ram to avoid hitting the disk swap.

Edit: To be fair it was used most when I was a student so my needs weren’t as high as they are today for work… so for work I would have needed/wanted a new one sooner.

Ah then I’m not sure which part you’re disagreeing with, I’m still referring to the Tim Cook-era when I say they were worse a few years ago.

 

[bcortens]

Ah then I’m not sure which part you’re disagreeing with, I’m still referring to the Tim Cook-era when I say they were worse a few years ago.

Miscommunication is easy in text 🫣