Max drive size on G3 iBook with mSata adapter

[heapsgood]

I am in the process of refurbishing a 900MHz G3 iBook. Unfortunately (and expectedly) the hard drive is dead. My main use for the machine will be making lossless CD rips, so I'd ideally like to add a large 512GB drive using an IDE -> mSATA adapter. Due to the lack of ALAC/FLAC support under OS9 and it's drive size limit I'll be using either Tiger or OpenBSD (though a smaller OS9 partition would be nice). I plan on using one of the red PCB adapters with the Marvell 88SA8052 controller as I've read these have the best performance.

On to my question.... I know that Ultra ATA/66 interface has a limit of 137GB per drive, but this limit was drastically increased for ATA100 / ATA 133. Does anyone know which interface this machine uses? A line here https://lowendmac.com/2014/how-big-a-drive-does-mac-os-9-support/ indicates that G3s only support smaller drives, but this is a very late model G3 (2003) that was released after many G4 models. I was hoping this may just be a limitation of earlier mainboards rather that the CPU itself. Has anyone here tried a 256GB or larger mSATA with one of these machines?
Thanks!

P.S. Please no recommendations to use a newer machine. I have newer machines, but no portable ones with cd drives, and having picked up the machine for 10euros it's an equivalently priced (and more fun) option to an external superdrive

UPDATE:
Using WayBack machine to open http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86178 I found the following:

The BootROM of Power Mac G4 (Mirrored Drive Doors), Xserve, Power Mac G5, and any other model introduced after June 2002 can accommodate these larger drives.

Being from 2003 this would support the idea that it does support large drives... so I have conflicting info between lowendmac and Apple support info. Really hope someone here has already tried this ?

 

[eyoungren]

I am in the process of refurbishing a 900MHz G3 iBook. Unfortunately (and expectedly) the hard drive is dead. My main use for the machine will be making lossless CD rips, so I'd ideally like to add a large 512GB drive using an IDE -> mSATA adapter. Due to the lack of ALAC/FLAC support under OS9 and it's drive size limit I'll be using either Tiger or OpenBSD (though a smaller OS9 partition would be nice). I plan on using one of the red PCB adapters with the Marvell 88SA8052 controller as I've read these have the best performance.

On to my question.... I know that Ultra ATA/66 interface has a limit of 137GB per drive, but this limit was drastically increased for ATA100 / ATA 133. Does anyone know which interface this machine uses? A line here https://lowendmac.com/2014/how-big-a-drive-does-mac-os-9-support/ indicates that G3s only support smaller drives, but this is a very late model G3 (2003) that was released after many G4 models. I was hoping this may just be a limitation of earlier mainboards rather that the CPU itself. Has anyone here tried a 256GB or larger mSATA with one of these machines?
Thanks!

P.S. Please no recommendations to use a newer machine. I have newer machines, but no portable ones with cd drives, and having picked up the machine for 10euros it's an equivalently priced (and more fun) option to an external superdrive

UPDATE:
Using WayBack machine to open http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86178 I found the following:


Being from 2003 this would support the idea that it does support large drives... so I have conflicting info between lowendmac and Apple support info. Really hope someone here has already tried this ?

Do not quote me, but I believe that the large drive limit does not apply if you are using av adapter. However, if I am wrong (a good possibility) there is the Speedtools ATA Hi-Cap Driver which will allow you to get the full size of the drive: http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/speedtools-ata-hi-cap-driver

To pedantically answer the question though, you could go up to 4TB I think. Although at that size, you need to partition using GUID. There is however a way to boot PowerPC off GUID drives, but I've never done it.

Also, no one in the PowerPC forum is going to suggest to you to update your Mac. We all use PowerPC ourselves, support others (such as you) who do as well and we all have a loyalty to these Macs. Don't look down at us for owning a few Intel Macs though.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[Certificate of Excellence]

PowerPC roolz, stinky Intel droolz.

 

[Macbookprodude]

Do not quote me, but I believe that the large drive limit does not apply if you are using av adapter. However, if I am wrong (a good possibility) there is the Speedtools ATA Hi-Cap Driver which will allow you to get the full size of the drive: http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/speedtools-ata-hi-cap-driver

To pedantically answer the question though, you could go up to 4TB I think. Although at that size, you need to partition using GUID. There is however a way to boot PowerPC off GUID drives, but I've never done it.

Also, no one in the PowerPC forum is going to suggest to you to update your Mac. We all use PowerPC ourselves, support others (such as you) who do as well and we all have a loyalty to these Macs. Don't look down at us for owning a few Intel Macs though.

Welcome to the forum.

Also, no one in the PowerPC forum is going to suggest to you to update your Mac. We all use PowerPC ourselves, support others (such as you) who do as well and we all have a loyalty to these Macs. Don't look down at us for owning a few Intel Macs though. - EXCEPT ME, Even the Titanium G4 or Aluminum G4's will run circles around any G3 at all. Unless the OP loves the G3, then G3 it is, but I always suggest updating to G4 as G3 just doesn't cut it anymore, assuming internet and youtube is what the op wants to do. i NEVER owned a G3 per say, though I have a G4 Pismo(G4 550 to replace the useless g3 500 CARD I have) - it made a much better difference. For some reason I always thought the G3 was a weak chip, extremely weak compared with the G4. Just my .02 on G3 vs G4.

 

[Macbookprodude]

PowerPC roolz, stinky Intel droolz.

Include M1/M2 also, though RISC themselves, not quite like PowerPC at all.

 

[heapsgood]

@eyoungren Thanks for the welcome and the info, I'm frequent lurker but rarely post anywhere. I was not aware of HiCapDriver. I won't hold it against you if it goes wrong, but that gives me some confidence to just give it a shot (at worse I guess I'll return the SSD for a smaller one). Definitely won't be going over 4TB ?, the max mSata is 1TB at the moment I believe. The Mac garden page there also suggests formatting using Hard Disk SpeedTools if I want to native boot to OS9. This will be a boot drive, suppose I'd need to use an os9 live usb/cd/firewire drive and open the tool from a thumb drive? Any idea if that's really necessary, or if formatting two partitions from OSX install disk with OS9 drivers is sufficient (assuming the OS9 partition is under the size limit).


@Macbookprodude I actually was told it was a G4 machine in its listing and a little disappointed when it turned out not to be the case. But I dont plan on using YouTube or web browsing on this machine and considering it's in very good condition and cost next to nothing, I was hoping to fix it up and make use of it rather than adding yet another machine to the collection which currently comprises of :
Apple IIe, Power Macintosh G3 Desktop, Indigo iMac G3, G5 Quad 2.5, some stinky Intel machines ?
All working (minus some CD drives). The iMac G3 has 120 GB SDD and triple boots Tiger/OpenBSD/OS9 ?

 

[Amethyst1]

I believe that the large drive limit does not apply if you are using av adapter.

It still applies because it's in the PATA controller. The (m)SATA-to-PATA adapter just makes the controller see a PATA drive.

 

[heapsgood]

It still applies because it's in the PATA controller. The (m)SATA-to-PATA adapter just makes the controller see a PATA drive.

Hmm this is what I was assuming originally, although I'm still hoping my controller is late enough to support ATA100/133/larger drives or the suggested tool can work around limitations of the older controller.

 

[B S Magnet]

Hmm this is what I was assuming originally, although I'm still hoping my controller is late enough to support ATA100/133/larger drives or the suggested tool can work around limitations of the older controller.

Doing a bit of digging, the iBook G3/900, according to Everymac (which, I might forewarn, occasionally gets a minor detail wrong) notes this model (12- or 14-inch) was equipped with an “Ultra ATA” HDD. Of course, “Ultra ATA” was a designation devised by Western Digital, but whose specifications for “Ultra ATA” (which included a more robust CRC error correction standard, as memory serves) was integrated into and spanned several revisions of the ATA standard (ATA-4 through ATA-8, or 1997 to 2008, respectively).

Given Apple’s lack of specifying which ATA standard was bundled with the final G3 iBook, I’m guessing (based on my own experience of working with earlier iBooks and realizing the actual implemented ATA standard can vary from what Everymac lists) your iBook’s PATA bus, given when Apple began selling the iBook G3/900s (April 2003) is running with the ATA-6 standard, which was finalized in 2002.

This would also mean your iBook isn’t limited by the 128GiB addressing cap of earlier ATA standards (but would be limited by the memory addressing can of a 32-bit system, hence a 2TB theoretical), and the ATA-6 standard specifies a raw data transfer rate of up to 100GiB (ATA-6 is sometimes also referred to as ATA/100 or UDMA 5), whilst real-world transfer rates will be somewhat lower.

In short, you probably have the fastest PATA bus of any G3 made by Apple.

 

[heapsgood]

@b-s-magnet Thanks for the digging, I did see the 'UltraATA' in spec there but yeah unfortunately no details of which version. The note from Apple support page suggests they made the switch soon after ATA-6 was finalised, just hoping they didn't cheap out for the iBook line, though I dont imagine there would be a real cost saving so hopefully you are right. Good news all round, looking like my plan is sound and that I'll end up with one of the highest spec G3s possible ? Will post back after, anyone else who has tried it themselves give me a heads up if they know otherwise.

 

[Project Alice]

The iBook G3 100% tops out at 128GB/137GB depending on if you're using 1000 or 1024 to do your math.
You should be able to use whatever drive you want if you use the aforementioned hi-cap driver, which is on the machintosh garden. You would just have to partition the first 128GB with the OS, and anything after that used as a storage drive.

 

[B S Magnet]

The iBook G3 100% tops out at 128GB/137GB depending on if you're using 1000 or 1024 to do your math.
You should be able to use whatever drive you want if you use the aforementioned hi-cap driver, which is on the machintosh garden. You would just have to partition the first 128GB with the OS, and anything after that used as a storage drive.

Given the iBook G3/900 which @Dronecatcher uses for testing and for accessing YouTube, I’d be especially interested to read what he’s learnt about the applied upper limits of his system, including storage.

 

[Project Alice]

Given the iBook G3/900 which @Dronecatcher uses for testing and for accessing YouTube, I’d be especially interested to read what he’s learnt about the applied upper limits of his system, including storage.

Yeah, me too. Most G3s in the wild aren’t 900MHz models though. I’ve come across more 500MHz models than anything else.

I guess the 800/900s might support large drives being released in 2003? I have a broken one and a working 800MHz G3 but I didn’t plan on opening it anytime soon.

 

[Macbookprodude]

My G4 Titanium came out in middle to end of 2003, so like the MDD I assume the iBook G3 you have already supports LBA-48 large drive support. Try it and see if it works - Tiger and Leopard only, though I supposes Jaguar and Panther support this.

 

[heapsgood]

Confirmed working!Os9 even seems to deal with it ok. Thank for the help everyone!

 

[B S Magnet]

Confirmed working!Os9 even seems to deal with it ok. Thank for the help everyone! View attachment 1839576 View attachment 1839577 View attachment 1839578 View attachment 1839575

Nice!

Did you run this as-is, or did you need to add the Hi-Cap driver to get the iBook to see the whole capacity?

 

[heapsgood]

Nice!

Did you run this as-is, or did you need to add the Hi-Cap driver to get the iBook to see the whole capacity?

As is, the OS9 boot partition is only 40GB, but it does seem to be able to access the larger 400GB Panther partition just fine ( will be switching to Tiger later, this was what I had on hand). Not sure if booting from a large OS9 partition would cause issues. Handrest above the SSD gets a little toasty, but not uncomfortably so. It does have a grill right next to it on that side, hopefully that keeps it from getting to damaging temperatures. The machine is dead silent when it’s not under any serious load which is very nice. Now Im in the odd position of having more storage on my iBook than 2016 MacBook Pro… if only those were as upgradable

 

[Certificate of Excellence]

I’ve noticed significant heat output with the SSD caddy upgrades I’ve done with my ppc portables. I’m surprised no one (manufacturers of said caddies) haven’t figured out how to fit a tiny fan in there somewhere. Seems like a solid design upgrade to me to help knock down the temps a bit during prolonged load.

 

[Amethyst1]

Seems like a solid design upgrade to me to help knock down the temps a bit during prolonged load.

…and to introduce noise that the SSD upgrade is supposed to eliminate.

 

[Certificate of Excellence]

…and to introduce noise that the SSD upgrade is supposed to eliminate.

Drive/fan noise has never been a concern for me. Really, its not even in my top 10 list. Now SSD's throwing heat in cramp elderly portables prone to brittle component grumpiness - thermal damage is concerning to me there and a fresh fan could hypothetically reduce system wear and prolong usable life moving air over the SSD - or not, I guess that's the engineers job to figure out. I'd buy one anyhow.

Anyhoo, if I want mental silence, I wear my over priced over-ear headphones and listen to white noise (which I fully admit is not silence by definition).

 

[Project Alice]

I’ve noticed significant heat output with the SSD caddy upgrades I’ve done with my ppc portables. I’m surprised no one (manufacturers of said caddies) haven’t figured out how to fit a tiny fan in there somewhere. Seems like a solid design upgrade to me to help knock down the temps a bit during prolonged load.

Some of the SSD and adapter combos do seem to actually produce more heat, yes. I’ve had good results thought by buying an “expensive” SSD new from Newegg from a reputable brand such as crucial or samsung. The eBay ones have always gotten oddly hot.
Thus far the adapters I’ve gotten have worked well too.

…and to introduce noise that the SSD upgrade is supposed to eliminate.

Funny thing here.. I assume you’re talking about the fans? My 15” 1.5GHz PowerBook has this weird thing where it actually makes noise from what sounds like the speakers? During file transfer or heavy disk activity. It literally sounds like a hard disk. I’ve experienced this effect on other machines in the past but that PowerBook is particularly bad about it. Unless I’m remembering wrong I’m fairly certain it will do it through headphones too.. I haven’t used it in a couple months.

 

[heapsgood]

Some of the SSD and adapter combos do seem to actually produce more heat, yes. I’ve had good results thought by buying an “expensive” SSD new from Newegg from a reputable brand such as crucial or samsung. The eBay ones have always gotten oddly hot.
Thus far the adapters I’ve gotten have worked well too.

Funny thing here.. I assume you’re talking about the fans? My 15” 1.5GHz PowerBook has this weird thing where it actually makes noise from what sounds like the speakers? During file transfer or heavy disk activity. It literally sounds like a hard disk. I’ve experienced this effect on other machines in the past but that PowerBook is particularly bad about it. Unless I’m remembering wrong I’m fairly certain it will do it through headphones too.. I haven’t used it in a couple months.

Im running a Renkforce adapter which was recommended over other models at half the price, and Kingston SSD which is a little lower tier than Samsung but is still a solid brand (msata Samsung drives don’t seem to be available here at this time). So I am a little disappointed by the heat, at the same time I wouldn’t call it uncomfortably hot. And I’m one of those people that does prefer their computers to be dead silent.

I’ve seen that sort of speaker issue before. Sounds like something isn’t well grounded. Using a three pronged adapter might help, if that’s an option for your model and in your country.

 

[Tratkazir_the_1st]

BTW, today (Sep. 23) is Diablo II Remastered day .

 

[B S Magnet]

Funny thing here.. I assume you’re talking about the fans? My 15” 1.5GHz PowerBook has this weird thing where it actually makes noise from what sounds like the speakers? During file transfer or heavy disk activity. It literally sounds like a hard disk. I’ve experienced this effect on other machines in the past but that PowerBook is particularly bad about it. Unless I’m remembering wrong I’m fairly certain it will do it through headphones too.. I haven’t used it in a couple months.

I’ve experienced what seems to be a “chirping” sound coming from SSD activity with my 17-inch PowerBook, although I haven’t really noticed it much in recent months. As written then, the sound was noticeable but not offensive.

It may or may not be related to what you’ve been hearing with your PowerBook. I haven’t noticed that — or any — sound coming from any other laptop. Which is baffling somewhat since my 15-inch PowerBook has virtually the same setup with an m.2 SSD made by the same maker, but it’s only at half the capacity of what’s inside the 17-inch.