Mike’s Linux challenge - Does Linux "Just Work?"

[nickdalzell1]

Mac doesn't force updates but it nags you endlessly about it unless you do the 24-hour Do Not Disturb trick or find a way to disable the notification center entirely (which I later did). Otherwise each login or every few hours during use you'll get 'A new software update is available for your Mac' or 'x Apps have updates available'. I was so glad when I ultimately deleted the Mac App Store as that one was worse with nagging me. But after all of that, Linux felt far more pleasing. I can disable all updates and all notifications in one fell swoop, and install or compile whatever version of any app I Like, such as the 2010-version of SeaMonkey I'm using to post this very post!

 

[grmlin]

I also prefer to drive cars without seatbelts.
It’s just the better experience /s


That’s a really weird take. I also think that the systems are annoying with their updates but there is a good reason for it. People don’t update **** when they don’t constantly get reminded to do so or it happens automatically. They only notice it when it’s to late and they catched a malware because of outdated software that opened the doors for it

 

[nickdalzell1]

It's just that the user, especially one with experience, should have a choice. I don't like things changing unless they're improvements. Today's UX designers want to relive the 1980s UI design. I don't. Most of their 'updates' flatten things or make the app worse. There's a reason that after iOS 7 and Android 5.0 (ironcally titled 'Lollipop') made me never believe in updates again. None of my apps are broken. Leave them alone.

If Android 12 is any indication of the future, then please, let me live in the future that could've been, when 2010 brought us HTC Sense, Samsung introduced TouchWiz, and Motorola had MotoBlur. At least it felt like things would be better and more futuristic, not regressing into the 80s.

I also have this fondness of the hardware design of 2010-12 as well. Shiny, glossy, clear plastic, etc. I have debated getting a used Nintendo Wii-U over a Switch. The way things were then felt more forward looking then they do now.

Linux gives me what I want. I don't want it becoming Android 12 and forcing crap down our throats or being locked down where it's frustrating for a power-user to tweak stuff. Remember Mac? That's Unix. Does anyone seriously want Linux to be that restricted where root has no power?

Also, you won't get hacked for using old software. That's a myth. Not only will no hacker worth their salt target the 1% still running Android 2.3, but most of their current exploits only work on modern OS these days. You won't get a 'fake virus warning' telling you to phone 'microsoft support' on IE 6. It doesn't support it.'

If you're someone who loves the Pirate Bay, Porn Hub, or the Dark Web, then I can't feel any empathy if they break their system with malware. That's always the user's fault.

Everyone loves to say Linux isn't good enough especially after Linus Tech Tips uninstalled his DE trying to install Steam. He's supposed to be a tech YouTuber, and he ignored various warnings and even forced it and wonders where his DE went. Ironically his opponent knew what he was doing.



It literally told him not to, and he does it anyway. It's not complicated! You don't simply ignore 'this removes ESSENTIAL packages' or 'THIS MAY HARM YOUR SYSTEM'. Fault is user error.

 

[grmlin]

I mean, you can always install Windows XP then. Very unlikely it will bother you with updates anytime soon.

Again. Not updating an operating system is a bad idea if you connect it to the internet. It’s pretty simple. It might be worse with Windows than with a Mac or Linux, but malware isn’t exclusive to Windows. Updates are often tied to UI changes, that’s how it goes. Linux is your best bet there of course, Desktop environments that look like a Time Capsule from the 90s will be hard to find with a modern system running it somewhere else. But that has nothing to do with keeping the system up to date.

 

[nickdalzell1]

Actually, the first time I read the FUD about 'old software gets hacked just because it's old' I actually had a perfect opportunity to test that theory. I have an old Pentium 4 HP desktop system lying around, and I installed a fresh copy of Windows XP (oddly not one of my favorite versions of Windows at all. In fact, in 2001 when it launched, I despised it for being dumbed down--Vista was a huge improvement but going on....) and set it up with a Wifi card that supported XP. I opened up the in-built version if IE and went to Google.com and left it alone. A day later I discovered, much to my expectations, nothing was wrong. It was exactly as I had left it. Not hacked, not full of malware. No odd things going on and nothing of concern in Event Viewer or anywhere else. Now, If I had tried to find a compatible browser enough to go to ******* or Pirate Bay or installed any number of garbage 'cleaner' apps, or clicked on any pop-up advertising a 'free iPad' then yeah, it'd be messed up in an instant. That's why I cling to smart browsing winning out. If you're stupid, an OS shouldn't protect you. You should take responsibility for your actions. Not expect an OS to protect the user from themselves. There's an entire forum here on MacRumors full of folks using still-developed software to keep PowerPCs running Leopard or Tiger going in 2021. Why not tell them they're gonna be hacked or their bank accounts drained eh? Same thing really.

 

[triptolemus]

I have an old Pentium 4 HP desktop system lying around, and I installed a fresh copy of Windows XP ... and set it up with a Wifi card that supported XP. I opened up the in-built version if IE and went to Google.com and left it alone. A day later I discovered, much to my expectations, nothing was wrong. It was exactly as I had left it.

So you left a stock XP machine hanging on your network with no open ports at the firewall? Or did you hang the thing bareback on the internet?

 

[nickdalzell1]

It was connected to my Wifi which is after my home router, yes. Just like any other internet-connected device on my network. The world didn't end. Myth BUSTED.

In my view, it's as simple as this:

If you went to a zoo and put your hand into the lion enclosure, don't expect the zoo to give you any sympathy if your arm is bitten off, especially doing something as stupid as ignoring the 'don't stick your hands into the Lion enclosure!' signs.

You'd rather we live in a world where the zoo pays out compensation because someone was so stupid to stick their hand into a lion enclosure and ignore all warnings not to do so. we keep trying to protect idiots from themselves, and you know what? All you accomplish is making more idiots. How anyone can calmly make a statement that 'power users are the minority' amazes me. We've gotten so willfully ignorant these days that computer literate people are the minority, yet we can't see that as a scary realisation? If society continues this path then perhaps Idiocracy is a documentary, after all!

 

[triptolemus]

IT was connected to my Wifi which is after my home router, yes. Just like any other internet-connected device on my network. The world didn't end. Myth BUSTED.

If there are no open ports at the router/firewall open and forwarded to the XP machine, why would you expect anything to happen?

Hang that bastard bareback on the internet and see what happens.

 

[Queen6]

Auto update of security for any OS is clearly of benefit for the vast majority of users plain and simple as they likely do not fully understand the security risks. Those with tech biased knowledge can deal with such matters as they please. Advising otherwise is foolish, verging on malicious...

Q-6

 

[DaveFromCampbelltown]

If there are no open ports at the router/firewall open and forwarded to the XP machine, why would you expect anything to happen?

Hang that bastard bareback on the internet and see what happens.

I did just that, a long time ago, when I was using XP.
Set up a new install, connected to the internet via a dial-up modem, and just left it. Within 20 minutes it had been infected by at least one virus.
Wiped it, re-installed, new unused password, set up a firewall. All was well.

This was some 15+ years ago. I was astonished at how quickly the machine was suborned.
I quickly went back to using macOS and Linux.
Soon after our Internet was upgraded to ADSL, with a proper Modem/Router/Firewall.

 

[JMacHack]

Everyone loves to say Linux isn't good enough especially after Linus Tech Tips uninstalled his DE trying to install Steam. He's supposed to be a tech YouTuber, and he ignored various warnings and even forced it and wonders where his DE went. Ironically his opponent knew what he was doing.

View attachment 1933005

It literally told him not to, and he does it anyway. It's not complicated! You don't simply ignore 'this removes ESSENTIAL packages' or 'THIS MAY HARM YOUR SYSTEM'. Fault is user error.

Linus is a chode and everyone with two braincells to rub together knows he’s just entertainment at best (he’s even admitted such)

SomeOrdinaryGamers called his “Linux test” out in a video and pointed out that he didn’t take the route of the “easy linux experience”.

 

[Queen6]

Linus is a chode and everyone with two braincells to rub together knows he’s just entertainment at best (he’s even admitted such)

SomeOrdinaryGamers called his “Linux test” out in a video and pointed out that he didn’t take the route of the “easy linux experience”.

Sure, he's either very shrewd or his wife is. He's making it so all power to him...

Q-6

 

[nickdalzell1]

Auto update of security for any OS is clearly of benefit for the vast majority of users plain and simple as they likely do not fully understand the security risks. Those with tech biased knowledge can deal with such matters as they please. Advising otherwise is foolish, verging on malicious...
Q-6

"Ignorance is never an excuse"

 

[nickdalzell1]

Linus is a chode and everyone with two braincells to rub together knows he’s just entertainment at best (he’s even admitted such)

SomeOrdinaryGamers called his “Linux test” out in a video and pointed out that he didn’t take the route of the “easy linux experience”.

Oh anyone who's got any brain cells knows he's an idiot (I prefer Anthony as he seems intelligent) but still he did cause a lot of harm to POP!_OS's reputation because a lot of people love Linus, most of them quite obviously not tech literate

System 76's dev tried to say 'it's your fault for not following the warnings and ignoring them' and everyone got angry at the dev for speaking the blunt truth.

I don't know about the rest of society but when I made mistakes I learned from them. I didn't act like a whiny brat and blame the manufacturer of the stove because I touched the hot iron.

 

[JMacHack]

Oh anyone who's got any brain cells knows he's an idiot (I prefer Anthony as he seems intelligent) but still he did cause a lot of harm to POP!_OS's reputation because a lot of people love Linus, most of them quite obviously not tech literate

Linus knows his audience and caters to them. He knows how to play ball and that’s what he does and does well. Anthony is the gold standard for reviews there as far as I’m concerned.

System 76's dev tried to say 'it's your fault for not following the warnings and ignoring them' and everyone got angry at the dev for speaking the blunt truth.

Exactly as Muta said in this video:

And he gives a good basis for a Linux system that’s painless.

I don't know about the rest of society but when I made mistakes I learned from them. I didn't act like a whiny brat and blame the manufacturer of the stove because I touched the hot iron.

People will lay blame on who they want to blame, not who necessarily deserves it.

In my experience with Linux, the thing that makes it great is also where it suffers. There’s an incredible amount of options to choose from to tailor to every user and need, but it’s also intimidating and the community can be very elitist.

 

[Queen6]

"Ignorance is never an excuse"

Nonsense, as many are simply not technically well versed and far better served by such automatic safeguards. All you've done is paint yourself into a corner, now defending Linux like it was your child.

We are all very different, with different capabilities, needs and interests. Linux works for you ? Linux can in some circumstance works for me, equally needing to use Windows or macOS does not mean your a lesser person or infers a lack of knowledge.

As said the attitude of the Linux community is it's own worst enemy. TBH that's how I think a lot of you want to keep it. So you think you can talk down to people and pretend to be elitists. Logically if an individual has a high level knowledge of Windows and or macOS, Linux is not a wide step. There is no best OS, there is simply the best OS for the users needs.

Want more users on the Linux platform, try changing your tune, seriously so...

Q-6

 

[nickdalzell1]

The only way to make Linux 'mainstream' is to turn it into a clone of MacOS without root possible. It'd be as lousy as any other. I would prefer people learn to use a computer like they used to. Stop with this dumbing down of society. As I said before, if Linux were made for 'the masses' there'd be nothing left to go to. Everything would be a Fisher-Price UI and the OS would do its hardest to protect everyone from themselves.

We need to stop being so willfully ignorant and keep learning. "It's great to learn as Knowledge is Power" as Schoolhouse Rock once said.

I mean it's bad enough we have warning labels like 'don't hold wrong end of chainsaw' but do we honestly want to design everything so any idiot can use it? I fear for such a future. It's hard enough finding anything catering to power users today, with Linux and to an extent (albeit a lesser one) Android being all that's left since we lost WebOS and BlackBerry.

When you make everything so easy that you don't need to learn how to use it, then you have less incentive to learn at all. We will only breed more idiots. I am sick to death of tech assuming I'm an idiot who needs to prove he's smart. It should be the other way around.

 

[maflynn]

The only way to make Linux 'mainstream' is to turn it into a clone of MacOS

I disagree, you continually beat the drum that the system has to be dumbed down because people by and large are incapable of understanding the intricacies of Linux.

Rather why should an OS be so complex that it prevents people from running their apps. Its not a question of dumbness but rather these things are tools meant to get a job done.

If tool A can get the job done with a minimal amount of effort, and tool B can accomplish the same job but requires a lot more learning and a fair amount troubleshooting. People will choose tool A (not because they're lazy or willfully ignorant) but because the end result is what matters not what tool is being used. We on this forum are for the most part hobbyists, we enjoy a set of challenges and look to see how things can be done on computers, the vast majority of people using computers are doing so to accomplish something. The job is what matters to them not the tool.

We need to stop being so willfully ignorant and keep learning

The school teacher who is not willfully ignorant, he/she continues to take classes and learns and improves his/her skills would rather spend time teaching then figuring out why his/her laptop's wifi is not working or his/her wireless mouse isn't recognized by Linux.

You seem to take such broad strokes and assumptions and seemingly look down at anyone unwilling to put time and effort into learning and troubleshooting Linux when there are platforms that get the job done better, and easier. Not because that platform has been dumbed down but because it does a better job. You seem to attack people when its the platform that failed to live up to its very own proclamations.

I started this thread to see if Linux can be used as a daily driver and to use an apple term - does it just work? Can I get my job done, can I use it to play my games. Can it easily replace windows for those tasks? The answer is no it cannot, and its not because I'm willfully being ignorant, its because its a worse tool for the job. I'm not anti-linux. I've tried to use it for many years and every time I've embraced it, I rant into brick walls. I've used Linux systems on a daily basis in my job, and while I don't consider myself an expert by any stretch of that term, I have familiarity and some skills to interact with the OS and yet it was still a struggle to play a game. If I need to spend time troubleshooting, I'm not spending time playing that game. My time is finite and I can't spend the whole day trying to get Fallout 76 to work with sound and perhaps a week to get similar frame rates as windows.

 

[nickdalzell1]

I'm basing it on a lot of things. The way Windows took out useful visual cues such as progress bars or error codes and replaced them with 'Something happened ;(' or 'We are updating things for you, sit back and relax while the magic happens' and so forth

The way UI design feels more and more inspired by Fisher Price these days. A lot of OSs (including some Linux distros so it's already happening) removed root level permissions, limiting to using only sudo and /etc/sudoers instead of allowing a root logon, as well as making updates mandatory (this latter problem is affecting modern Android and Windows mostly) and making a lot of power-user level settings hidden or behind a lot of extra unnecessary steps.

I am not claiming everyone is stupid. I mean the vast majority of users who use a laptop do what with their system? Browse Facebook, play Candy Crush, check their email, shop online or watch Netflix. You can do all those things OOTB on Linux easily. No terminal needed. Ubuntu itself is a prime example of a decent distro for those people.'

There's a huge difference between an OS that's attempting to be idiot proof and one which has options for power users. Linux has both. I don't like the idea of a future where Linux is entirely idiot proof the way Windows 11 is becoming. I want an OS out there that caters to those with experience.

Your teacher example is odd anyway. In the 80s those same teachers had no issue popping a 5.25" floppy disk into an IBM PC and typing cryptic MS-DOS commands to open WordStar or dBase III, and use those apps' own cryptic shortcuts.

Today, no one wants to learn. We have OSs designed to cater to lacking knowledge and therefore no one has any incentive to actually learn anymore. We will only breed more idiots with this mentality. How long before even building a PC becomes impossible because one moron caused a house fire in the attempt so we all must suffer? That's the fear I have. A future where even having options is bad because the mere existance of them means one person lacking the proper skills can bring an entire network down. A future that brought two safety guards and one extra button to operate a chainsaw because someone didn't read the manual years ago and chopped his or her arm off. "Those things can't exist because the user cannot be trusted to have them any longer"

As I said, Idiocracy was a documentary.

A user with root permissions should never get an 'rm: access denied' error. But today, even Linux of all things has broken root. I cringe of a future where something similar to what happened to Mac OS happens to Linux. I mean, even with temporary elevated permissions (Apple's lousy implementation of sudo) I can't remove the darned calculator app because of how messed up their APFS partitioning is. Everything on / is read only at boot. Can't be made RW. not with chmod, not with sudo, not even with recovery console.

 

[ADGrant]

I do not disagree that MS wanted to attract Linux developers. However the claim was made specifically about Macs - not Linux.

I see nothing in the WSL documentation (that, by the way started off as POSIX comparability long before Linux came into the name) that states that Microsoft created WSL to attract Mac developers.

Windows NT had posix compatibility included when it was launched back in 1993. It did not include any support for a Unix development environment and was created to comply with FIPS 151-2, a US Government spec that required Posix compatibility.

I didn't say anything about Microsoft trying to attract Mac developers, I said they were trying to attract Web developers who host their development environments on Macs. In large tech companies such as Google, Facebook and Amazon this is common practice (even some Banks are allowing their developers to use Macs). I was told by someone responsible for dev tooling at a large tech company (who I will not name) that they had been approached by Microsoft and asked to consider switching from their Macs to Windows.

That said Microsoft has also targeted MacOS and iOS developers in the past. One thing they tried was sending out free copies of Windows 8 Pro and Parallels to MacOS/iOS developers.

And who can forget Ballmer's "developers" rant:

 

[Queen6]

I'm basing it on a lot of things. The way Windows took out useful visual cues such as progress bars or error codes and replaced them with 'Something happened ;(' or 'We are updating things for you, sit back and relax while the magic happens' and so forth

The way UI design feels more and more inspired by Fisher Price these days. A lot of OSs (including some Linux distros so it's already happening) removed root level permissions, limiting to using only sudo and /etc/sudoers instead of allowing a root logon, as well as making updates mandatory (this latter problem is affecting modern Android and Windows mostly) and making a lot of power-user level settings hidden or behind a lot of extra unnecessary steps.

I am not claiming everyone is stupid. I mean the vast majority of users who use a laptop do what with their system? Browse Facebook, play Candy Crush, check their email, shop online or watch Netflix. You can do all those things OOTB on Linux easily. No terminal needed. Ubuntu itself is a prime example of a decent distro for those people.'

There's a huge difference between an OS that's attempting to be idiot proof and one which has options for power users. Linux has both. I don't like the idea of a future where Linux is entirely idiot proof the way Windows 11 is becoming. I want an OS out there that caters to those with experience.

Your teacher example is odd anyway. In the 80s those same teachers had no issue popping a 5.25" floppy disk into an IBM PC and typing cryptic MS-DOS commands to open WordStar or dBase III, and use those apps' own cryptic shortcuts.

Today, no one wants to learn. We have OSs designed to cater to lacking knowledge and therefore no one has any incentive to actually learn anymore. We will only breed more idiots with this mentality. How long before even building a PC becomes impossible because one moron caused a house fire in the attempt so we all must suffer? That's the fear I have. A future where even having options is bad because the mere existance of them means one person lacking the proper skills can bring an entire network down. A future that brought two safety guards and one extra button to operate a chainsaw because someone didn't read the manual years ago and chopped his or her arm off. "Those things can't exist because the user cannot be trusted to have them any longer"

As I said, Idiocracy was a documentary.

A user with root permissions should never get an 'rm: access denied' error. But today, even Linux of all things has broken root. I cringe of a future where something similar to what happened to Mac OS happens to Linux. I mean, even with temporary elevated permissions (Apple's lousy implementation of sudo) I can't remove the darned calculator app because of how messed up their APFS partitioning is. Everything on / is read only at boot. Can't be made RW. not with chmod, not with sudo, not even with recovery console.

Helping would be a start. Make a change, make a difference? Try to help those that don't know. Those that want learn let them learn and stop talking down to people...

As said the Linux community is it's own worst enemy. A shame as there's so much potential...

Q-6

 

[Conutz]

Today, no one wants to learn.

As others have said: computers are tools. Compared to the old days that you refer to, they have become far more capable, allowing users to do a lot more. Should an aerodynamicist worry about his terminal prompt or rather spend time on his simulation package? Most people need to, and would rather, spend their time on far more productive tasks than learning the inner workings of an OS, etc. As a business owner, I can say that we move forward when we produce/invent/create in our field, not in the terminal. It’s called progress.

Also, there are far more valuable things to learn than just focussing on computers! How about personal finance, improving one’s health and diet, the environment and so on? I’d say that those things are orders of magnitude more important, valuable and relevant to the current (and future) world.

 

[maflynn]

I am not claiming everyone is stupid. I mean the vast majority of users who use a laptop do what with their system? Browse Facebook, play Candy Crush, check their email, shop online or watch Netflix. You can do all those things OOTB on Linux easily. No terminal needed. Ubuntu itself is a prime example of a decent distro for those people.'

Actually you kind of are

Your teacher example is odd anyway.

You totally missed my point. You stated that no one wants to learn, I gave you an example of one profession where they do and thus are not willfully ignorant. Just because they view PCs as tools and would rather spend there finite time improving their craft instead of learning the intricacies of apt-get doesn't mean they're unwilling to learn.

We have OSs designed to cater to lacking knowledge and therefore no one has any incentive to actually learn anymore.

What about Apple's Macintosh? It was released in 1984, and had a gui interface, no command shell. So for the next 40 years we've regressed and dumbed down even further because, you know, you didn't have type commands in a terminal?

 

[maflynn]

Some great points by Linus and Luke. Particularly at 10:40 where Linus states that he's a busy guy and only has so much free time and he didn't want to spend all of that time trying to get a game working as opposed to actually playing

He communicates the point I was trying to make better - do you want to use App X or Game Y or spend hours trying to figure out why App X or Game Y isn't working.

 

[MBAir2010]

Linus states that he's a busy guy and only has so much free time and he didn't want to spend all of that time trying to get a game working......

if he is soooo busy, he should not be playing games!

in a couple of years down the road, we will all need to learn linux or forfeit our older macs for new boxed ones.
case in point Mountain Lion 2012 still works, but nothing apple related as for downloading programs, and iCloud sync'n.