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Mav451

macrumors 68000
Jul 1, 2003
1,657
1
Maryland
Dont Hurt Me: Haha why are you always so down on Macs? I'm of course presuming you are using a Mac, but i have noticed you still are extremely unhappy with the hardware situation in most of your posts this month :(

Performance matters in areas like games/specific apps/OS. If your bug is in the games arena, the obvious fix is build a gaming PC. OS and specific apps on the other hand are so variable, so i'm not entirely sure where you are getting at.
 

Dont Hurt Me

macrumors 603
Dec 21, 2002
6,055
6
Yahooville S.C.
Mav451 said:
Dont Hurt Me: Haha why are you always so down on Macs? I'm of course presuming you are using a Mac, but i have noticed you still are extremely unhappy with the hardware situation in most of your posts this month :(

Performance matters in areas like games/specific apps/OS. If your bug is in the games arena, the obvious fix is build a gaming PC. OS and specific apps on the other hand are so variable, so i'm not entirely sure where you are getting at.
I have used Macs for years and for years its allways the same crap, poor hardware good software. I have been waiting for a decent Mac for the past year. currently I use a 1.47 G4 geforce3 1 gig mem. sure its fine for web,mail photo's but try playing a new game on it and barely ok. Start comparing benches on the otherside and you soon notice our Hardware sucks. even top of the line $3000 Duals G5s get beat by single CPU machines from AMD and Intel. not only in gaming but in video and other stuff. now when i want something for my Mac I have to search and search and wait and wait. the otherside? hell i walk into Wally world and there is that program or peripheral sitting on the shelf! so here we wait and wait. well one day the Mac version is released and guess what it costs $100 bucks more! on top of that the otherside has by now a newer and improved version. this has been going on for years. in software and new hardware. i think Apple should just sell a PC version of the OS and shutdown the poor hardware division. there i said it.
 

173080

macrumors 6502
Aug 15, 2003
409
1
Dont Hurt Me said:
i think Apple should just sell a PC version of the OS and shutdown the poor hardware division. there i said it.

Poor Hardware? Can you tell me the name of ONE Notebook of the same build quality as a PowerBook?
 

clr900

macrumors regular
Jan 25, 2004
173
0
I agree that Apple's hardware is often underpowered but what sets them apart in my opinion is the amazing quality and design. What other company makes such slick looking, aesthetically pleasing computers? Not to mention how well they are engineered, look inside of a PowerMac G5. Amazing.
 

aswitcher

macrumors 603
Oct 8, 2003
5,338
14
Canberra OZ
clr900 said:
I agree that Apple's hardware is often underpowered but what sets them apart in my opinion is the amazing quality and design. What other company makes such slick looking, aesthetically pleasing computers? Not to mention how well they are engineered, look inside of a PowerMac G5. Amazing.

I am impressed with Apple's power line designs...but yeah, they tend to lag somewhat in terms of performance and features...
 

Dont Hurt Me

macrumors 603
Dec 21, 2002
6,055
6
Yahooville S.C.
clr900 said:
I agree that Apple's hardware is often underpowered but what sets them apart in my opinion is the amazing quality and design. What other company makes such slick looking, aesthetically pleasing computers? Not to mention how well they are engineered, look inside of a PowerMac G5. Amazing.
It is laid out nice no doubt. time for some real horsepower. a 64 bit OS and the 90 nm process should do it. keep on waiting is all i can say. I wonder how Xserves 90nm are doing at virginia tech and how they compare to the 130 nm powermacs. this should tell us if our waiting is in vane or not.
 

volfreak

macrumors regular
Jan 4, 2002
102
38
Knoxville, TN
Possible updates?

Going to the Apple store this AM and trying to access the Powerbook and iMac sections times out. iBook, eMac, Displays and PMac G5 pages load appropriately.

Could there be updates of some type coming? Seems odd just the PB and iMac details won't load. The top image loads but the actual system spec details don't. And the summary on the PB page doesn't include specs on processor, HD, bus or anything. iMac page still does but the PB page lists only general things.

Or is it just me?

Hmmmmm...
 

CalfCanuck

macrumors 6502a
Nov 17, 2003
609
120
Mav451 said:
Dont Hurt Me: Haha why are you always so down on Macs? I'm of course presuming you are using a Mac, but i have noticed you still are extremely unhappy with the hardware situation in most of your posts this month
He's got good reason to complain. Apple has some good points, but they also have some significant bad ones as well. One of the things that I also find so frustrating is that even when they come up with a universally recognized bad idea, they won't change it.

Anyone remember the "round mouse" nonsense? The mouse is based around an x / y coordinate system, so it must be used in the proper orientation. But a round mouse gave no user feedback on what that proper orientation would be. Once they came out, the problem became immediately apparent.

Yet Apple shipped CPUs with these crappy mice for years. Why, because they "looked nice"? But form MUST follow function, and this failed the test.

So forcing most users to go out and buy a third party mouse the minute they opened their new computers box is systematic of the weakness of Apple's hardware division.

We see this repeated time and time again - minimal hard drives, too little RAM for the appropriate system, charging as extras things should be included in the base system (Apple charged $100 for a keyboard for years), etc.

Now Apple is finally starting to include some decent software in base models, and that is becoming a strong selling point. DHM acknowledges this. But while their hardware might have improved from the low point in the mid 1990's, it still has a lot of room for improvement, particularly in the heavy lifting category.
 

invaLPsion

macrumors 65816
Jan 2, 2004
1,385
0
The Northlands
volfreak said:
Going to the Apple store this AM and trying to access the Powerbook and iMac sections times out. iBook, eMac, Displays and PMac G5 pages load appropriately.

Could there be updates of some type coming? Seems odd just the PB and iMac details won't load. The top image loads but the actual system spec details don't. And the summary on the PB page doesn't include specs on processor, HD, bus or anything. iMac page still does but the PB page lists only general things.

Or is it just me?

Hmmmmm...

This is very strange, with the site going down yesterday and this occuring.

Updates Tuesday?
 

paulsecic

macrumors regular
Feb 3, 2004
118
0
San Lorenzo, CA
a17inchFuture said:
Well I hope you are wrong, as the present design for imacs is very cool, and is somewhat newish if I remember correctly(or have at least had the G4 for little time). Anyways, I just think that the iMacs are selling poorly because people want powerful machines these days, and are simply going for the beautfiul G5 PM's. But I think this desire for technology and the future is veering a little away from iMacs, and more toward the portability and all encompassing abilities of the powerbooks and G5 Pm's. Therefore, I believe they should try to stay on top of the powerbook game as well.

Back five years ago, iMacs were what was needed to get people back into mac, and to get apple out of the woods. At the same time, computer sales were growing faster than ever before with ethernet and internet in general really becoming household things. I think now people are so onboard with the "computer lifestyle", especially for the mac users, that now they just want to get the best of the best when they buy, and that that is why the PMs are doing better lately, and the iMacs not.

Plus, iMacs kinda get people into the "Apple style", which is a refined taste, like escargot (sp?). And once you are into that style, the PB's and G5 PM's are just the pinnacle of that taste.

Okay, so some of that might have been a little out on a limb . . . .

I'm just waiting until they update G5 or a faster Imac. I have Windows 98 on an E-machine and its awfuk, & I know XP ia a shell.
 

paulsecic

macrumors regular
Feb 3, 2004
118
0
San Lorenzo, CA
hulugu said:
My you're feeling a little vitriolic today. I actually think selling to eMac to the consumer market was a smart move considering people were asking for it. The eMac is a great consumer machine for the low end, and while I agree that it confuses the market a little between iMac and eMac it works. And yes Jobs did say that the 'CRT was dead' but I'm glad he was able to eat those words.
Apple needs to improve its quality that's true, but the iBook problem and the G5 PSU affect how many people, around 1%. I've seen two DOA Dells last week, so I'm really not impressed on that front either.
Apple needs to do better, yes, but I think they're doing a generally good job. Hopefully those 'clowns' are really working on shoving the G5 into everything they can so they can go 64-bit fully before MS and simplify their OS development. If the new IBM chips are as efficient as reported even a sloughed down version could work in the iBook (at 1.0Ghz maybe). Now that would kick ass.
MS won't have 64 bit computing until late 2005 - 06. They're rewiting the file system from scracth. They're true boobs!
 

Mav451

macrumors 68000
Jul 1, 2003
1,657
1
Maryland
Well in the same way, when will OSX go 64-bit? (not talking about memory addressing, but actual software, drivers, etc.)

The G5, Athlon64 series and the FX have made 64-bit cpus mainstream now. If anyone is a historian, how long was the transition from 16 to 32-bit software?
 

dudewheresmymac

macrumors member
Jan 28, 2004
90
0
cubist said:
Hear hear! When Steve Jobs first brought out the G3 iMac, did it cut into Beige G3 tower sales? Of course it did! Did they worry about it? Maybe -- but it saved the company, you know!

Steve Jobs knows that the consumer line is hurting. Fred Anderson even said it. Steve's not going to sit in his easy chair and twiddle his thumbs. The G5 iMac is coming, you can believe it.


i agree completely imac definately needs a G5.... it is just too underpowered.... also the price needs to be lowered somehow.....
 

Game_Hunter

macrumors newbie
Mar 4, 2004
13
0
Taipei, Taiwan
Holding The Mac Line

It seems to me the problem for Apple since the early to mid-nineties as far as their strength in the PC market has been mindshare. Now with the success of iPod and the iTunes Music Store as well as high profile stories about the good in their new OS and the bad in their competition's they are positioned well for a new assault on the market. Problem: they are underpowered. Now don't go throwing a fit. They ARE underpowered and NOT price competitive.

I can go buy a pretty solid Dell right now for 500 USD that will outperform on many tasks the cheapest Mac (eMac) at 300 USD more. That does not look good to a consumer, mindshare be damned. To add insult to injury there is the software availability problem and the generally poor performance of anything other than a Power Mac for heavy gaming. Software availability follows marketshare so in addressing marketshare you are addressing software selection and availability, but games need horsepower and there are no two ways around that.

In my opinion the recapture of market share requires a lot of things to change and to facilitate that change Apple needs to push their hardware into the modern era so that it combined with their ahead of it's time OS can truly make the competition look as shoddy as it is. My revised line-up within six months would look like this.

Entry Level Desktops = Colorful eMacs starting at 599 (Revive the colors fun and match them to the iPod Mini colors)

These should have two RAM slots accepting up to 2 GB of DDR RAM running at 333 Mhz and start at a default 256 MB of RAM or they will seem sluggish. The FSB needs to be upped to 533 Mhz. If they want to jump up more slowly they can do 266 RAM/400 Mhz FSB but they need to up this. Consumers are not as computer dumb as they used to be and they look at these as standard specs along with processor type and speed which brings up the next thing. They should up the G4s in these to at least 1.25 Mhz and within another 6 months 1.42 Mhz. No excuse for a slow system. All of these major performance ups could be achieved at a new price with only a modest margin hit I'm sure. Other things like being Airport ready and the video/sound cards/hard drives require no change. I'd keep the two models idea running. Basically one cheap starter system (599) and the more professional but still reasonable upgraded system with DVD burning and maybe slightly higher default RAM (maybe 899). To meet these prices they could maybe drop the cheaper eMac to a 15" CRT but this is dangerous as many consumers have now become accustomed to 17" monitors which are competitive with 15" monitors in pricing.

Entry Level Laptop = iBook

I think these are fine and color matching should be considered. I'd up the processors to 1 Ghz in the 12" model and 1.25 in the 14's because a sub-Hz computer speed looks slow to consumers used to 2 Ghz and up. They will accept slower speeds in laptops because they're used to it but sub 1 Ghz looks bad. Only other things would be the building in of 256 MB instead of 128, and allowing for larger 1GB RAM modules in the single upgrade slot instead of 512 MB modules. This would make their RAM max 1.256 GB instead of 640 MB making them solid performers and a very good option for laptop customers. The prices should remain the same but the 12 inch model should be dropped to 999 for prestige sake.

Prosumer Desktop = iMac?

While I know there are people who like these I would personally drop them all together in favor of a line of single processor G5s at similar price points. The cost of them doesn't jive with people's ideas about the cost/performance ratio and their design makes upgrading or customizing not possible. For an entry level computer this is fine but for a Prosumer machine it isn't acceptable. There are no PCI slots and these max at 1GB of RAM. You also can't change out the video card. Nasty. These are overpriced eMacs with flat panels and nobody is buying them.

If you want to keep them drop the 15" model and lower the prices on the 17" and 20" by about 300, make Bluetooth default and then make the max RAM 2GB. This wouldn't drive their sales much but it would make them more attractive.

If it were me I would create a new two system line of Macs based on the single processor G5 tower designs using perhaps what was the bottom rung 1.6 Hz G5 as the starter system and then a revived single processor 1.8 G5 as the upper end unit. These are upgradable and seductive to consumers. At the old iMac price points including a 17" Apple flat panel these would be DAMN sexy purchases. (G5 1.6 Ghz + 17" monitor = 1699. Oooo...Aaaaa). My only other suggestion would be to change the name and tower look to distance it from the POWER Macs. You don't want any mistake about where the POWER lies in the line-up and this could have that effect if Apple wasn't careful. Save the Power Mac name for the true power systems. I'd also speed bump them to 1.8 and 2.0 in October or so to get in on those folks who buy a new computer for Christmas as a tax write off before they have to give the money to the government in the next year.

Perhaps the iMac's design could be revived in a few years as a replacement to the eMacs when no one want's to see a CRT or traditional BIG monitor anymore and the manufacturing cost of the flat panels comes down low enough to make sub 1000 USD iMacs realistic. Apple was a little too early on this move and the demand for consumer sales of the eMac have shown this.

Power User Desktop = Power Mac G5

I don't think they still make G4 Power Macs but they should certainly stop. The G5 is the only processor that should exist in anything currently called a Power Mac, period. I'll go one step further and say that they should do away with the single processor systems in the Power Mac line as well and save those for the Prosumer line I mentioned above. They'll need only two models. One which is cheaper and acts as the entry level system and one that is about all out balls to the wall performance bar none (prestige!!!!! It equals mindshare which affects marketshare). I'm talking about a dual 2 Ghz as the entry level and a dual 2.4 Ghz as the pillaging plundering conquerer of 2004. And these should be speed bumped in November to get in on those end of the year shoppers I mentioned above. Push the damn things to the limit. Dual 2.4GHz machines replace the Dual 2s and Dual 3s step it to take over the crown. Only other thing is to not go over 3000 on the default configuration of any of these making them not only unbelievable, but unbelievably priced (prestige!!!!!!!!).

Power User Laptop = PowerBook G4

I know I'm going to take heat for this one but the fact is that these with a few speed bumps are still totally awesome machines. There is no need to move them to G5s this year and doing so could hurt their battery life and prestige. I would wait for revisions to the G5 that improve power consumption and upgrade the processors to G5 next year. For this year just keep uping their speed across the line and maybe improve their video cards a bit.

On more thing and it's not about hardware but about software. Games are a major force in driving consumers to an OS/computer and the Mac is hurting for games by comparison to PC. I think Apple should buy Bungie or a similar quality developer and/or create there own in-house game development team which makes modern cutting edge Mac exclusive games and then perhaps ports them slowly or late or incomplete to Windows PCs. Turn the tables a bit. Give gamers a reason to look at Macs first. This is a standard technique in console wars and should be considered as a valid one in PC marketshare battles. With iLife, Mac exclusive or first games, and a more solid pricing/performance comparison to PC Apple's Macs could really truly make a huge move in the next 5-10 years instead of the slow painful creep that they've been fighting for during the past 5.


Final thing. I think Apple should consider entering the camcorder market with a digital camcorder based on mini-hard drive technology. Apple's already on the cutting edge of the computer side of home movie making for consumers. They should levy that and their iPod prestige to branch into this consumer market as well. Apple has made their computer the best "digital hub" money can buy and branched out of that limited position with the iPod by reaching into the digital music market. Now I think they should reach into the digital video market as well. The iCam could effectively work with Windows easily without giving away iMovie to the Windows crowd but really shine when plugged into the Firewire on a Mac. This is an opportunity Apple should NOT miss out on.

There. I've said my piece. Now when Apple calls I'll gratiously accept their job offer. :rolleyes:
 

aswitcher

macrumors 603
Oct 8, 2003
5,338
14
Canberra OZ
Game_Hunter said:
Final thing. I think Apple should consider entering the camcorder market with a digital camcorder based on mini-hard drive technology. Apple's already on the cutting edge of the computer side of home movie making for consumers. They should levy that and their iPod prestige to branch into this consumer market as well. Apple has made their computer the best "digital hub" money can buy and branched out of that limited position with the iPod by reaching into the digital music market. Now I think they should reach into the digital video market as well. The iCam could effectively work with Windows easily without giving away iMovie to the Windows crowd but really shine when plugged into the Firewire on a Mac. This is an opportunity Apple should NOT miss out on.

There. I've said my piece. Now when Apple calls I'll gratiously accept their job offer. :rolleyes:

Much of what you have raised has been bought up previously, so you are amoungst other similiar thinkers. I definitely like the Bungie idea, that would be cool.

As for the video camera, I think Apple should stay with what it does well, and would be better off cutting a deal than expanding into a highly competitatve market they have no experience at. Sure, if they buy someone out that would be cool, but they don't have the money for Sony, Canon, Minolta, etc, so maybe a nice deal would work best. Harddisks are a cool idea assuming transfer rates and issues with wanting to replace "tapes"...tapes are cheap and spare hard disks are not.
 

Game_Hunter

macrumors newbie
Mar 4, 2004
13
0
Taipei, Taiwan
iCam can can competition.

aswitcher said:
As for the video camera, I think Apple should stay with what it does well, and would be better off cutting a deal than expanding into a highly competitatve market they have no experience at. Sure, if they buy someone out that would be cool, but they don't have the money for Sony, Canon, Minolta, etc, so maybe a nice deal would work best. Harddisks are a cool idea assuming transfer rates and issues with wanting to replace "tapes"...tapes are cheap and spare hard disks are not.

I only think it would be good for them because they need to diversify their presense and use consumer products like these as gateways to switching. If I love my iCam and iPod and they work so well I couldn't think of replacing them, the next time I march into CompUSA for a new computer won't I think about Apple? They've done right by me and I know they make computers too. This has worked for Sony. All it takes is a few minutes using one with a positive frame of mind to have them make the switch and most I've met switch to Mac and never go back.

The reasons I particularly like the iCam idea is that they have all the technology to do it with iSight and iPods plus Firewire and their iLife suite (in particular iMovie and iDVD). They could integrate it into a consumer line by making next gen iPods and iCams share interchangable rechargable batteries and/or hard drives. You could open the ass of your iCam and switch out the HD when it's full or keep one extra battery in your bag that would work with either your iCam or your iPod.

It also occurred to me that they could create an iPod+ in 2005 or 2006 at 499 USD which recreates the iPod as a PDA with a Touch Wheel screen saver. Could make for a nice replacement to the Palm line which is losing Mac OS X compatibility soon. Mac Users are going to be left out. The only alternative solution I can think of is an alliance with Nokia or a high end cell phone manufacturer to assure Mac OS X compatibility with the high end Symbian OS/PDA phones as a replacement to the PDAs that many now use.
 

aswitcher

macrumors 603
Oct 8, 2003
5,338
14
Canberra OZ
Game_Hunter said:
I only think it would be good for them because they need to diversify their presense and use consumer products like these as gateways to switching. If I love my iCam and iPod and they work so well I couldn't think of replacing them, the next time I march into CompUSA for a new computer won't I think about Apple? They've done right by me and I know they make computers too. This has worked for Sony. All it takes is a few minutes using one with a positive frame of mind to have them make the switch and most I've met switch to Mac and never go back.

I see where your coming from but I can't say a video camera is the first new thing Apple should be trying to put out given it would be expensive and be going into a market that has some very large and old manufacturers with excellent cheap products. I doubt Apple could pull off a new spin on things to make its mark.

The reasons I particularly like the iCam idea is that they have all the technology to do it with iSight and iPods plus Firewire and their iLife suite (in particular iMovie and iDVD). They could integrate it into a consumer line by making next gen iPods and iCams share interchangable rechargable batteries and/or hard drives. You could open the ass of your iCam and switch out the HD when it's full or keep one extra battery in your bag that would work with either your iCam or your iPod.

An iSight, no matter how good, doesn't make them ready to take on the big boys with complex megapixel ccds, patented optics, sophisticated sensors etc. Sure, a cable and software patch to use a new geenration iPod with a video screen as a basic recorder for the iSight could be an interesting simple solution video camera, but I remain unconvinced there is a much of a market, especially with the features, memory capacity ect that is available now. Plus you have that market still getting cheaper. An iPod (40Gig) + iSight is already at a price point equal or higher than entry level DV cameras, + you still need to an A/V iPod to make this work if that's what your proposing.

It also occurred to me that they could create an iPod+ in 2005 or 2006 at 499 USD which recreates the iPod as a PDA with a Touch Wheel screen saver. Could make for a nice replacement to the Palm line which is losing Mac OS X compatibility soon. Mac Users are going to be left out. The only alternative solution I can think of is an alliance with Nokia or a high end cell phone manufacturer to assure Mac OS X compatibility with the high end Symbian OS/PDA phones as a replacement to the PDAs that many now use.

Sure, that's been a subject of some considerable debate in the forums. It all came up again when Palm pulled out of supporting Mac (do a search and fine the references). An alliance is a possiblity of course, and I am sure there would be many keen buyers but again is a competative market.
 

Game_Hunter

macrumors newbie
Mar 4, 2004
13
0
Taipei, Taiwan
In defense of iCam

aswitcher said:
An iSight, no matter how good, doesn't make them ready to take on the big boys with complex megapixel ccds, patented optics, sophisticated sensors etc. Sure, a cable and software patch to use a new geenration iPod with a video screen as a basic recorder for the iSight could be an interesting simple solution video camera, but I remain unconvinced there is a much of a market, especially with the features, memory capacity ect that is available now. Plus you have that market still getting cheaper. An iPod (40Gig) + iSight is already at a price point equal or higher than entry level DV cameras, + you still need to an A/V iPod to make this work if that's what your proposing.

I subscribe to the opinion that marketing aside much like with a superior species on a closed environment a superior product in a closed market will likely succeed. There are a huge number of factors involved in brining a product like the to market and it wouldn't be easy (perhaps 2005-2006 sometime) but I think it could be a huge success for Apple in the way the iPod has been because the market is in a transitional phase. It's looking for a new medium and a new type of player. Sony is trying t obe there with there little DV camcorders and several are approaching pure digital camcorders but no one has done it exactly right. The first company to do it exactly right is going to hit a goldmine and with Apple's respected name they'd have a solid shot a serious attention without the need for serious marketing muscle. Add that muscle in and they could manage a head start exactly as they did with the iPod. The MP3 market was crowded and contained some big names but no one did it right until the iPod and now it's the player to beat. An iCam could easy march to the head of the class and become the camcorder to beat. If they built it and next gen iPods to use the same removable battery they would be both addressing a majoy complaint against their dominant music player and savings costs on the development on the iCam. Further it would be an accessory to sell for one or the other that could likley bring in constant high margin sales. It could be the item that could put Apple's name back in electronics superstores like Best Buy for good. If you factor in the iPod presence at such stores it might be enough Apple interest to justify floor space for a few Macs. If it was to be done it would have to be done as part of a larger strategy to grow Apple as a company with massive mindshare and cross product marketshare.
I don't think they should loose their focus at all. Computers are their main stay and if that tanks they die, but gradual branching out and attempts at new markets wouldn't hurt them at all. It's done wonders for Gateway despite how poorly they handled it and can help make a tech company more resiliant in rough times.

aswitcher said:
Sure, that's been a subject of some considerable debate in the forums. It all came up again when Palm pulled out of supporting Mac (do a search and fine the references). An alliance is a possiblity of course, and I am sure there would be many keen buyers but again is a competative market.

This was just an idea. Personally I would go for the mentioned alliances on these because of the amount of time and resources that would have to be devoted to this to do it properly. A half assed attmept would only hurt them financially and publicity-wise. It's also not a good idea to mess with your cash cow unless you are improving it. Changing what it is might alienate your customer base.
 

rdowns

macrumors Penryn
Jul 11, 2003
27,397
12,521
Game_Hunter said:
It seems to me the problem for Apple since the early to mid-nineties as far as their strength in the PC market has been mindshare. Now with the success of iPod and the iTunes Music Store as well as high profile stories about the good in their new OS and the bad in their competition's they are positioned well for a new assault on the market. Problem: they are underpowered. Now don't go throwing a fit. They ARE underpowered and NOT price competitive.

No fits here. With the success of the iPod and marketing deals with HP, Pepsi and AOL, Apple is in its best positions ever to win new customers. Sadly, their lineup is ill equipped to exploit it.


Game_Hunter said:
Entry Level Desktops = Colorful eMacs starting at 599 (Revive the colors fun and match them to the iPod Mini colors)

These should have two RAM slots accepting up to 2 GB of DDR RAM running at 333 Mhz and start at a default 256 MB of RAM or they will seem sluggish. The FSB needs to be upped to 533 Mhz. If they want to jump up more slowly they can do 266 RAM/400 Mhz FSB but they need to up this. Consumers are not as computer dumb as they used to be and they look at these as standard specs along with processor type and speed which brings up the next thing. They should up the G4s in these to at least 1.25 Mhz and within another 6 months 1.42 Mhz. No excuse for a slow system. All of these major performance ups could be achieved at a new price with only a modest margin hit I'm sure. Other things like being Airport ready and the video/sound cards/hard drives require no change. I'd keep the two models idea running. Basically one cheap starter system (599) and the more professional but still reasonable upgraded system with DVD burning and maybe slightly higher default RAM (maybe 899). To meet these prices they could maybe drop the cheaper eMac to a 15" CRT but this is dangerous as many consumers have now become accustomed to 17" monitors which are competitive with 15" monitors in pricing.

Am I undertanding you correctly here? G4s still in the eMac? If so, no FSB faster than 167 MHz. Motorola has been stalled there for years. If we're lucky, the new 1.5 GHz g$ they recently announced will have a faster FSB, maybe 200 MHz.

I like the idea of colors but 5 is too many. As I recall, that hurt them bad with the original iMac. Check that, their inane requirement to have to buy them in sets killed them. Typical Apple. 2 or 3 colors would be good, just make them in the top 2 or 3 colors of the iPod mini.

Game_Hunter said:
Prosumer Desktop = iMac?

While I know there are people who like these I would personally drop them all together in favor of a line of single processor G5s at similar price points. The cost of them doesn't jive with people's ideas about the cost/performance ratio and their design makes upgrading or customizing not possible. For an entry level computer this is fine but for a Prosumer machine it isn't acceptable. There are no PCI slots and these max at 1GB of RAM. You also can't change out the video card. Nasty. These are overpriced eMacs with flat panels and nobody is buying them.

If you want to keep them drop the 15" model and lower the prices on the 17" and 20" by about 300, make Bluetooth default and then make the max RAM 2GB. This wouldn't drive their sales much but it would make them more attractive.

If it were me I would create a new two system line of Macs based on the single processor G5 tower designs using perhaps what was the bottom rung 1.6 Hz G5 as the starter system and then a revived single processor 1.8 G5 as the upper end unit. These are upgradable and seductive to consumers. At the old iMac price points including a 17" Apple flat panel these would be DAMN sexy purchases. (G5 1.6 Ghz + 17" monitor = 1699. Oooo...Aaaaa). My only other suggestion would be to change the name and tower look to distance it from the POWER Macs. You don't want any mistake about where the POWER lies in the line-up and this could have that effect if Apple wasn't careful. Save the Power Mac name for the true power systems. I'd also speed bump them to 1.8 and 2.0 in October or so to get in on those folks who buy a new computer for Christmas as a tax write off before they have to give the money to the government in the next year.

Perhaps the iMac's design could be revived in a few years as a replacement to the eMacs when no one want's to see a CRT or traditional BIG monitor anymore and the manufacturing cost of the flat panels comes down low enough to make sub 1000 USD iMacs realistic. Apple was a little too early on this move and the demand for consumer sales of the eMac have shown this.

No doubt, G5s are needed here yesterday. Dual processors in the PM and single in the iMac. I love the current iMac form factor but maybe it is just too costly for Apple to sell them competitively. I would love a small tower (no more than half the current PM size, smaller if possible) that I could upgrade the video card and maybe even a PCI slot. Ship the damn thing with 512MB and leave me 2 slots open (need RAM in pairs for a G5).

Does Apple really want to attract switchers? I think many people consider Macs but then they think about transferiing all their files, will peripherals work etc. Put a program in place to help these people. Offer it through Apple Stores, CompUSA and use it to attract new resellers. For a small fee ($100?), bring in your old PC and you'll be shown how to move files, obtain drivers for your existing peripherals (if needed), basic OS training and select software. The fee would boost margins for resellers and give them the opportunity to sell additional hardware and software. Would probably be a bitch to run, but would probably move people to switch.

All those nice QuickTime training movies Apple has for Panther, iPhoto, iMovie etc. on .Mac, put them on the damn hard drives of all new Macs. Market them as free training and shout from the rooftops how great the iApps are. These apps solve problems people buy computers for.

Here's an example, my niece was in a play last week and about 11 family members attended. Most had a digital cameras and took pictures. I took 29 pictures. Within 90 minutes of returning home, I had them edited and posted online at my .Mac site. Sent out an email and the replies flooded in. How did you do that so fast? How do I do that with my PC? Put that in a TV ad, that would sell Macs.


Game_Hunter said:
Final thing. I think Apple should consider entering the camcorder market with a digital camcorder based on mini-hard drive technology. Apple's already on the cutting edge of the computer side of home movie making for consumers. They should levy that and their iPod prestige to branch into this consumer market as well. Apple has made their computer the best "digital hub" money can buy and branched out of that limited position with the iPod by reaching into the digital music market. Now I think they should reach into the digital video market as well. The iCam could effectively work with Windows easily without giving away iMovie to the Windows crowd but really shine when plugged into the Firewire on a Mac. This is an opportunity Apple should NOT miss out on.

There. I've said my piece. Now when Apple calls I'll gratiously accept their job offer. :rolleyes:

I disagree. Unless Apple can add something that current camcorder vendors don't do, then it makes little sense. It is far from Apple's core competency and would likely fail. They don't have the technology and would have to license it which would lead to an overpriced offering. Partner with Sony or one of the other players to make a more Mac friendly camera. Sell it with special pricing or rebates.

Don't hold your breath waiting for Apple's call. They are interested in head up your ass marketers, those who create inane schemes to sell older technolgy and protect their higher end units. Apparently, they would rather sell small amounts of high end, high margin units than move millions at lower margins.
 

Dont Hurt Me

macrumors 603
Dec 21, 2002
6,055
6
Yahooville S.C.
How you doing Rdowns? thanks again for that article hope to see it soon, I agree with almost everything you said about Apple not being able to exploit its music success even more. Emac is still being held back( crippled with a 133 bus) since Imac was getting beat by Emac when both were at 133 apple gave it a .25 more cpu with the 33mhz more bus. still didnt do much from benches i have seen. we know people are running Emacs at 1.33 ghz with the stock cpu so it is just more of the crippling by Apple.
Having colors for Imac crt was good for consumers but forcing a retailer to buy the machine in bundled colors was more of Apple trying to figure out how to screw up a good thing. They should have just let market decide on the colors and produce them in larger qtys. Allways seem to manage 2 steps forward and 1 step back in some fashion.
This is one of the longest slumps I can remember from Apple. Emac,Imac,Powerbook and Powermac every machine needing updates and overdue.
Very good idea on making it easy to switch Pc users to mac by showing how to transfer all that stuff. Still have to have hardware to get people to switch. people arent going to switch to a new mac that is as fast as a 2+ year old PC. at least not many. Apple just has to stop the crippling game. Emac is a Great example of what it could be and how its held back for Imac.
 

rdowns

macrumors Penryn
Jul 11, 2003
27,397
12,521
Dont Hurt Me said:
How you doing Rdowns? thanks again for that article hope to see it soon, I agree with almost everything you said about Apple not being able to exploit its music success even more. Emac is still being held back( crippled with a 133 bus) since Imac was getting beat by Emac when both were at 133 apple gave it a .25 more cpu with the 33mhz more bus. still didnt do much from benches i have seen. we know people are running Emacs at 1.33 ghz with the stock cpu so it is just more of the crippling by Apple.
Having colors for Imac crt was good for consumers but forcing a retailer to buy the machine in bundled colors was more of Apple trying to figure out how to screw up a good thing. They should have just let market decide on the colors and produce them in larger qtys. Allways seem to manage 2 steps forward and 1 step back in some fashion.
This is one of the longest slumps I can remember from Apple. Emac,Imac,Powerbook and Powermac every machine needing updates and overdue.
Very good idea on making it easy to switch Pc users to mac by showing how to transfer all that stuff. Still have to have hardware to get people to switch. people arent going to switch to a new mac that is as fast as a 2+ year old PC. at least not many. Apple just has to stop the crippling game. Emac is a Great example of what it could be and how its held back for Imac.

The more I think about offering a switch service (iSwitch?), the more I like it.

Apple has got to stop crippling lines to protect others. You can't force buyers to buy the next line up in the matrix by crippling the one they really want to buy. This notion of pro machines and not having the same or similar technology in other lines is just stupid. Let the market decide.

I mailed the article on Friday.
 

Dont Hurt Me

macrumors 603
Dec 21, 2002
6,055
6
Yahooville S.C.
Cool Rdowns. Did you read that article? Did alienware give the Mac a whooping? I think Apple is so worried of one product taking away from another that they all end up as less then they can be therefore hurting all sales. Anywhere else the market decides winners and loosers but apple wants all products to be winners but with the philisophy they cant be. How many times do people wrestle with Imac vs Emac or Imac vs Powermac or Powerbook vs ibook. the better Pc makers let you get just what you want and hence they own 95% of the market.
 

aswitcher

macrumors 603
Oct 8, 2003
5,338
14
Canberra OZ
Game_Hunter said:
I subscribe to the opinion that marketing aside much like with a superior species on a closed environment a superior product in a closed market will likely succeed. There are a huge number of factors involved in brining a product like the to market and it wouldn't be easy (perhaps 2005-2006 sometime) but I think it could be a huge success for Apple in the way the iPod has been because the market is in a transitional phase. It's looking for a new medium and a new type of player. Sony is trying t obe there with there little DV camcorders and several are approaching pure digital camcorders but no one has done it exactly right. The first company to do it exactly right is going to hit a goldmine and with Apple's respected name they'd have a solid shot a serious attention without the need for serious marketing muscle.

That's probably ture. A little DV camera with a decent harddrive (60/80gig?) using mpeg4, with at least a 3x optical zoom, sterio audio (with mic option), 1-3 megapixel still capacity (whilst recording video), stablised optics (becoming standard), light mount for indoor shooting (a significant problem), firewire port, decent battery life, nice little high pixel screen, maybe a CF1 card slot...

Add that muscle in and they could manage a head start exactly as they did with the iPod. The MP3 market was crowded and contained some big names but no one did it right until the iPod and now it's the player to beat. An iCam could easy march to the head of the class and become the camcorder to beat. If they built it and next gen iPods to use the same removable battery they would be both addressing a majoy complaint against their dominant music player and savings costs on the development on the iCam. Further it would be an accessory to sell for one or the other that could likley bring in constant high margin sales. It could be the item that could put Apple's name back in electronics superstores like Best Buy for good. If you factor in the iPod presence at such stores it might be enough Apple interest to justify floor space for a few Macs. If it was to be done it would have to be done as part of a larger strategy to grow Apple as a company with massive mindshare and cross product marketshare.

SNIP

But Apple doesn't do much of that stuff except the harddrive now, the iSight not really being more than it is, a simple fixed lense. The iPod is soemthign that just required them to build a different sort of simple computer ands work hard on the software and Hollywood to make it work. A digital video camera is an entirely new market which is already highly competative, requiring several signifcant areas of expertise specifically optics and CCD sensors. If they got it just right, and the PC/Mac compatability, price point etc were on the mark, then they might get a profitable product but it would not be done cheaply and would require signficant resources to bring out a new camera every 6-12 months to stay
 
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