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Diatribe

macrumors 601
Jan 8, 2004
4,256
44
Back in the motherland
fpnc said:
Diatribe, the link you provided to the WWDC session doesn't prove your claim that Tiger will provide a fully resolution-independent GUI. It only demonstrates GUI scaling through some enhancements in Tiger's application framework. The presenter also says, "What we're talking about this year at WWDC is getting ready for resolution independence in the user interface in the toolkit." Note the term "getting ready" which was possibly meant to convey that Tiger is only the first step in the process of reaching a fully resolution-independent GUI. He also says that there is a lot of work yet to do (again, possibly indicating that Tiger is only the first, partial step in the process). It is certainly conceivable, however, that these WWDC comments represent something different from what I'm interpreting, but even that would just be another point of view and not certain fact. So, on that basis alone we'd probably have to describe these WWDC comments as somewhat vague.

However, prior to the demos they refer to the each of these new Tiger methods as "scaling" which is not really the same as a resolution-independent GUI. If you actually saw the results from this scaling you'd immediately notice that something is not right, because most of the user interface elements are simply redrawn as zoomed (magnified or scaled) bitmaps and thus they appear rough and stair-stepped. However, the text is redrawn with a larger point-size outline and thus it remains relatively smooth.

In some respects, Tiger may only be a test-case so that application developers can start to remove resolution-dependences from their code base. But, from a purely technical perspective, Tiger does not appear to implement a resolution-independent GUI.

I suspect that we might see some limited use of Tiger's GUI scaling, but IMO there will still be a long way to go before OS X is able to support a fully resolution-independent user experience.

See post above.
I guess we'll see how resolution independent Quartz 2D will be and much this affects the OS as a whole. From the video it rather sounded like they were getting ready to implement this for Tiger, at least that was how I understood it.
Sorry for the harsh remark, that was some time ago and I remembered it to be this way. I stand at least partially corrected. :)
 

virus1

macrumors 65816
Jun 24, 2004
1,191
0
LOST
vouder17 said:
Meh...i dont believe it... This is way TOO much for one upgrade...it just doesnt ..fit
ya.. especially with all apples nab software upgrades expected...

everyone stop saying this rumor is bs! blu-ray is just around the corner, and what better place to announce it than nab so people can start making them before the players get out. plus, sony is right next to apple with the "year of hd" junk, so maybe they might announce a player then.

but... i don't believe the pb will get hd, because there is no way they can get so many pixels in such a small screen. even if they did, it would be too small to see text and such. unless it comes with a mini magnifying glass in the little slot in the side. im just going to wait for the 30" HD PBG5 "portable" coming out on tuesday... (im going to regret bringing that up)
 

cc bcc

macrumors 6502
Jul 3, 2001
470
0
nl
If anyone is still confused as to what a resolution independant interface is, games have been doing this for year. A lot of games are resolution independant, including the UI. If you change resolutions, fonts and other elements don't change in size, but they just look sharper.
 

fpnc

macrumors 68000
Oct 30, 2002
1,988
136
San Diego, CA
virus1 said:
...but... i don't believe the pb will get hd, because there is no way they can get so many pixels in such a small screen. even if they did, it would be too small to see text and such. unless it comes with a mini magnifying glass in the little slot in the side. im just going to wait for the 30" HD PBG5 "portable" coming out on tuesday... (im going to regret bringing that up)

As has been previously noted, some PC notebooks already support HD resolution displays in sizes smaller than 17". Thus, a 17" PowerBook with a so-called HD display is certainly technically possible. Now, would I want one of those? Absolutely not, since the native display resolution to support HD on a 17" LCD would make the text and UI too small for my comfort. However, not everyone would feel that way, so I suspect that some would be tempted to buy a 17" PowerBook HD product.
 

fpnc

macrumors 68000
Oct 30, 2002
1,988
136
San Diego, CA
Someone has already mentioned the possibility that Apple may drop the dual-processor configurations in the Power Macs in favor of a single, dual-core 970MP setup. I really hope that doesn't happen since I'm fairly confident that Apple will need twin, dual-core 970MP systems (four core or 2x2) in order to better the dual-core Pentium and Athlon systems that will begin to appear over the next six months. It's even possible that dual-core Pentium systems will ship before Apple can deliver a 970MP-based Power Mac.

What I hope is that the 970MP processor will allow Apple to ship a lower-cost (one processor, in dual core), performance-equivalent of today's dual G5 Power Mac and a high-end twin dual-core that will offer significantly better performance that today's dual G5. The latter machine would undoubtedly be costly, maybe $3500+ in a basic configuration but it could also be an absolute performance "monster" (better than anything you'd likely find in the PC world).

So let's hope, really hope that Apple ships both single 970MP systems and high-end, twin 970MP units. And while they're at it, a single 970FX or 970MP product in a mini-tower would be a good thing (return of the Cube?).
 

748s

macrumors 6502a
Dec 14, 2001
692
31
Tiger Bay
could it be that apple are going after the sgi market?
32gb of ram in a G5.
sgi boxes can run 32gb ram.
rumours of a new, pro video app from apple at nab.
we will find out on the 17th april.
apple press conference at the paris hotel vegas 11am to 12:15pm
 

Scottgfx

macrumors 6502
Feb 26, 2002
316
8
Fort Myers, FL
Interesting... There has been some talk of Autodesk (Discreet) perhaps moving some of their editing-graphics products to the Mac, because of SGI not making certain computer systems anymore. (I believe Onyx was mentioned) Discreet has already been moving some of their products to the SGI Tezro. (Smoke I believe) ...Yes, very interesting, but almost page 3.

748s said:
could it be that apple are going after the sgi market?
32gb of ram in a G5.
sgi boxes can run 32gb ram.
rumours of a new, pro video app from apple at nab.
we will find out on the 17th april.
apple press conference at the paris hotel vegas 11am to 12:15pm
 

Scottgfx

macrumors 6502
Feb 26, 2002
316
8
Fort Myers, FL
pigwin32 said:
Far out, I knew Amiga's were advanced but a 32GB RAM disk, that must have been very expensive back in the late '80s. Plus what kind of barn did you need for all the aircon/power conditioning/etc. Got any pictures? :)

Ha!, Well back in the day, the Amiga had RAM Disks that were protected during warm reboots and were bootable. It was about the closest thing you could get to "instant-on" in 1989. We didn't have protected RAM though. If an application got upset, it could walk all over memory that didn't belong to it. RAM disks were very useful though.
 

Platform

macrumors 68030
Dec 30, 2004
2,880
0
Nice

PCIe, DDR2, Blue-Ray and 2Ghz at the bottom :rolleyes: :D
And PCIe means better graphics :D
But would the lower end PM have an option of the bule-ray dive :confused:
 

JFreak

macrumors 68040
Jul 11, 2003
3,151
9
Tampere, Finland
Frobozz said:
In 1987 or 1988 I bought a 16 meg SIMM module for a Mac IIcx for $1,600

can this information be accurate? i remember that i once bought four 4MB SIMM modules for 750 euros and that was in 80486-era, 1994 or something... i would say 16MB module wasn't for sale in 80's, at least not for general public, and that in the 80's the memory modules tend to be SIPP style.

addition: it seems that first SIMM modules were introduced in 1986 and were 256kb in size...
 

tdewey

macrumors regular
Jul 7, 2003
139
0
?

fpnc said:
As has been previously noted, some PC notebooks already support HD resolution displays in sizes smaller than 17". Thus, a 17" PowerBook with a so-called HD display is certainly technically possible. Now, would I want one of those? Absolutely not, since the native display resolution to support HD on a 17" LCD would make the text and UI too small for my comfort. However, not everyone would feel that way, so I suspect that some would be tempted to buy a 17" PowerBook HD product.


My question is: what prevents Apple from tweaking the UI just to accommodate the resolution on the 17" PB HD? It seems pretty clear that a resolution independent UI isn't coming until next year (at the earliest)...but I'm not clear as to why Apple can't "fudge" it for the hypothetical 17" or 15.2" PB HD?

I'm (obviously) not a Mac expert, so maybe someone who is can clue me in here?
 

John Rivers

macrumors newbie
Dec 16, 2004
15
0
Mobility 9800 on all PB's or just 17"? And other questions...

When it says "will offer the Mobility Radeon 9800", do they refer to offering the GPU chipset across the entire Powerbook line or just the new 17" HD?

I just (as in, last Saturday) received my new Powerbook G4 15". The performance is pretty good, but still playing World of Warcraft isn't as smooth as I would have hoped (my previous laptop was the IBM Thinkpad T41p with 128mb FireGL T2 GPU). Both have 1 GB of ram. If Apple sports the Mobility 9800 across the line, should I care or not (as in, would this be the missing factor in me being able to play WoW with smooth framerates?)

Lol, yea I know this sounds stupid, but really, when 10 of my friends spread across the nation are all able to finally "hang out" in one way or another, it means something. Any ideas/advice/knowledge? Thanks guys. :)
 

bankshot

macrumors 65816
Jan 23, 2003
1,367
416
Southern California
SGI

748s said:
could it be that apple are going after the sgi market?

Doubtful. About the only market SGI has left these days is the supercomputer market. They have systems that can run up to 512 CPUs and 8 TB of memory in a single system image. Yeah, Apple has the Virginia Tech supercomputer, but that's 1000+ separate machines, running OS X independently, all with their own unshared memory, which must communicate over some high speed network interface. Not quite the same thing. If you absolutely need all your processing in a single system, SGI beats the pants off Apple. If you just need a kick ass workstation, or if clustering is good enough, I don't know why anyone would buy SGI anymore. And I'm typing this on an SGI!

Now, straying waaaay off topic...

It's interesting to see how SGI has fallen over the years. When I started using their systems about 10 years ago, they were on top of the Unix world. They had by far the most user friendly commercial Unix. I used to say they were the Apple of the Unix world. ;) They were in the driver's seat, and if they'd focused on OS development, they may have had a jump on Apple in getting to something like OS X first. And of course, they still had what they were known for - blazing 3-D graphics that nobody else could touch, from their lowest workstation up to the biggest monster system.

But they stagnated. I went to their Developer Conference in 1997 where they talked about all the great new things that were coming in new versions of IRIX. 8 years later, we're still on the same major verion (6.5) with minor patches coming out every few months (I'm on 6.5.24 from sometime last year).

In the meantime, Nvidia and ATI have caught up to them in 3-D graphics workstation performance. Unless you need MASSIVE graphics throughput that the current high-end cards can't deliver, there's no reason to go with SGI. Their MIPS processors have seriously lagged in clock speed, and what advantage they used to have in cache sizes and system interconnect speed is no longer enough to keep up with a PC (or Mac :D). Think we have it bad in the megahertz race? They're only up to 800. My 400 MHz SGI O2 is easily over 5 times slower than the G5 we have.

I honestly don't know why anyone still buys their workstations, except to run applications that haven't been ported over to OS X, Linux or Windows. The bang for the buck is ridiculously low. Big iron is all they have left.
 

tdewey

macrumors regular
Jul 7, 2003
139
0
pigwin32 said:
Far out, I knew Amiga's were advanced but a 32GB RAM disk, that must have been very expensive back in the late '80s. Plus what kind of barn did you need for all the aircon/power conditioning/etc. Got any pictures? :)

No way did the Amiga have a 32GB ram disk. 32MB maybe...
 

cube

Suspended
May 10, 2004
17,011
4,972
leandroc76 said:
32 gigs? Impossible. No operating system to this day can use 32 megs. Tiger is only 64 bits with a max 8 gigs.

A single-image SGI Origin 3000 supercomputer with 512 CPUs can have 1 TB of shared memory.

OK, Altix can have upto 24TB of memory, but that's not a real SGI machine ;)
 

leandroc76

macrumors regular
Oct 27, 2003
152
0
cube said:
A single-image SGI Origin 3000 supercomputer with 512 CPUs can have 1 TB of shared memory.

Right, That's a supercomputer. Not an OS. The OS used for noding multiple processors are not avaible to consumers. Unless you use Linux, which takes a great deal of technical savy.

Nice try, Virgina Tech used 1100 or so cpu's to node their supercomputer.
 

cube

Suspended
May 10, 2004
17,011
4,972
leandroc76 said:
Right, That's a supercomputer. Not an OS. The OS used for noding multiple processors are not avaible to consumers. Unless you use Linux, which takes a great deal of technical savy.

Nice try, Virgina Tech used 1100 or so cpu's to node their supercomputer.

That's a cluster, not a single computer.

And nobody said it had to be a consumer OS (IRIX). If you need a personal machine with IRIX, Tezro takes upto 16GB of RAM.

Even if you were able to get all the pieces of Altix Linux, you would still need to design and build equivalent hardware. Altix it's not just some white Itanic boxes.

If you want a consumer OS, you can get an HP xw9300 with Linux or Windows and 16GB of memory. (From Sun only Solaris or Linux).
 

BenRoethig

macrumors 68030
Jul 17, 2002
2,729
0
Dubuque, Iowa
If the Powerbook HD is real, it'd have to be a bit thicker than the normal powerbooks. There is no way you can get a 9800 in a 1-inch notebook. Apple can do a lot of cool things, but they can't brush aside the laws of physics.
 

macspirit

macrumors newbie
Oct 2, 2002
3
0
OH
H.264 requires heavy-duty iron

fpnc said:
What I hope is that the 970MP processor will allow Apple to ship a lower-cost (one processor, in dual core), performance-equivalent of today's dual G5 Power Mac and a high-end twin dual-core that will offer significantly better performance that today's dual G5. The latter machine would undoubtedly be costly, maybe $3500+ in a basic configuration but it could also be an absolute performance "monster" (better than anything you'd likely find in the PC world).

Anyone ever try to encode H.264? I have...with a dual 1 GHz G4 (1.5 GB RAM, etc.). Takes next to forever.
 

sjl

macrumors 6502
Sep 15, 2004
441
0
Melbourne, Australia
BradMacPro said:
As the current Power Mac G5 motherboards use PC3200 DDR400 SDRAM, if you checked Crucial's web site, you'd find that the largest capacity modules you can order, in pairs for the G5, are 2GB, not 4GB. With 8 slots, that's 16GB. At $900 each that's still rather expensive. Just for comparison, the 1GB modules are $182 How much RAM do you really need?

Depends on the application. If you're doing serious number crunching -- which runs the gamut from graphics work (especially at high resolutions) through to scientific modelling (weather, nuclear physics, etc.) -- then the more RAM you have, the happier you are. There are plenty of datasets out there that won't fit into the RAM in your typical PC, and when that happens, you get so much swapping to try to make them fit, the work slows down to a crawl.

32 GB, for some applications, would be a godsend.

Frobozz said:
RAM drives, baby. RAM drives!

Like hell. To get good use out of a RAM drive, you need to set it up at boot time; figure out which files are going to be hardest hit; move them across from the hard drive; and then configure the application to use the RAM drive to access those files. And if they're working files that you need to save, you need to remember to copy them back to the hard drive when you're done.

In a few -- a very few -- applications, this may be advantageous. However, with any modern OS (meaning anything based on Unix, and anything based on the NT kernel, including 2000, XP, and 2003), the OS will automatically use any excess RAM to cache files. Try this sometime: with nothing else running on your Mac, open up a terminal session, and run the command "time ls -R / > /dev/null". Note the times given, then run it again. You'll see a massive drop in the time taken. That's caching in action.

In the vast majority of cases, the OS will do a better job of figuring out what to cache and what not than you could with a RAM drive at your finger tips. In other words, you'd need to put so much time and effort into figuring out what's best to put on the RAM drive, you might as well just give it up and let the OS handle it all for you. In most cases, it'll do a better job than you. In the other cases, it'll be so close that it really doesn't matter.

RAM drives had their use back in the 80s, when the OSes in use -- Mac OS Classic and MS-DOS -- didn't have the smarts to use excess RAM in this way. They also have their use if you're still running, say, Windows 3.1, which runs far better with a swap file than without, even if you have gobs of RAM (so you make a RAM drive and fill it with the swap file...). Except for those fringe cases, I don't see it being worth while. Trust in the OS; it'll be good enough.
 

guasmoa

macrumors newbie
Mar 31, 2005
16
0
possible ram type upgrade?

What's the chance Apple might upgrade the type of memory inside the G5? Looking back at the previous G5 which used PC2700 Ram, and now, PC3200, do you think they'll upgrade to the next best thing? What would be the next best thing? Just wondering, because I ordered 1 gigabyte of cheap PC3200(Kingmax CS2.5, apparently this isn't supposed to work with any G5's?) before I heard about this rumor. Now, I am thinking it was a ridiculous purchase...

Any input would be appreciated... thanks
 

BWhaler

macrumors 68040
Jan 8, 2003
3,788
6,244
My take:

1. Not going to announce hardware at the show. It'll be the new pro software suite.

2. Pro hardware will be at WWDC

3. No blu-ray disk. Too early.

4. HD Powerbook? 50/50 chance. Don't see any 17" HD screens in Apple line up. Maybe they will also release a 17" HD at $999 to go with the mac mini.

I think the Rev C PM's will finally be mature. I own a rev B, and there are still some hardware quirks. Of course, not as bad as the Rev. A

I may sell my old Rev. B and buy a Rev. C simply to have a stable platform on future-friendly technology to carry me for the next 5 years.
 

ShnikeJSB

macrumors member
Nov 16, 2003
91
0
Chicago suburbia
BWhaler

Jeez BWhaler!!! You sound like you are MADE of money!!! If I ever "lost" my 3rd Gen 30 gig iPod, I would weep for weeks!!! How can you just "lose" so many of them and keep replacing them??? :confused: Let alone buy such an expensive PowerMac and want to replace it so soon? :eek: Rollin' in dough? Man, I wish I could replace my TiBook/667... Say, maybe you can "lose" that duelie G5/2.5 -- maybe near my house somewhere -- when you pick up your rev.C??? :p LOL! -JB
 
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