There will always be a tradeoff. And when future machines come out with replaceable batteries the thing to remember isn't how they compare to what we have today, but what we could have had then.
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News: EU mandating changeable batteries starting 2027
- Thread starter Somian
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Hmm having glued-in batteries seems to me a prime case of planned obsolescence. Batteries affixed with Philips screws will do much better and have a minimal impact on product design.
There are some companies that make entire tech products that are user-disassemblable and they don’t look that different to the rest of the tech world, for example Fairphone for smartphones or Framework for laptops.
There are some companies that make entire tech products that are user-disassemblable and they don’t look that different to the rest of the tech world, for example Fairphone for smartphones or Framework for laptops.
People here who support planned obsolescence should take a look at Hugh Jeffrey’s videos on YouTube and watch him take some of these more recent devices apart. He’ll show and explain the difficulties he has and demonstrate some of the techniques Apple use to prevent you or third parties repairing or replacing parts. Bonding components, using 10 different proprietary screws across the build, coding all electronics including batteries to prevent third party parts being used are just some of the techniques. I know Apple have relaxed this slightly with a self-repair initiative, but they still have heavy control over the parts they authorise you to use.
People here spread propaganda about freedoms being taken in regards to the EU safeguarding consumer rights, but fail to see that greedy tech companies trying to monopolise is a far worse situation for us.
People here spread propaganda about freedoms being taken in regards to the EU safeguarding consumer rights, but fail to see that greedy tech companies trying to monopolise is a far worse situation for us.
Absolute straw man. As usual.
We are here talking about the trade offs from imposing this design. No one is arguing for ‘planned obsolescence’, whatever that means outside of tin foil hat land.
More empty rhetoric about repairability doesn’t serve anyone but iFixit’s business.
Did you even read the post on the previous page that pointed out what a terrible example the Framework laptops are. They have so many flaws compared to modern Macs they are basically incomparable.
Not sure, I'm not in the USA. In Europe you can get them in the big electronics chains, though.
Nothing of substance to respond with just rudeness eh? Fair enough.
I would rather have Ingress Protection (IP68) against solids (6 = dustproof) and liquids (8 = immersion beyond 1 m) than a replaceable battery if it comes between the choice of the two on mobile phones.
Why would those be affected by having a replaceable battery? Previous iPhones have had batteries that can be changed fairly easily.
So when is the EU going to finally start forcing Apple to provide OS support for their hardware longer?
This is always going to be the elephant in the room in terms of planned obsolescence. But politicians are too clueless about tech to understand that...
This is always going to be the elephant in the room in terms of planned obsolescence. But politicians are too clueless about tech to understand that...
In your mind how long does Apple provide OS support?
macOS has 8-10 years before final Security Update support
iOS/iPad has 7-8+ years before final Security Update support
Similar is expected for other Apple devices
Windows has 122 months since 2007 WinVista. 2001 WinXP had 150+ months.
Android is not beyond 5 years. This is shorter the cheaper the Android device is.
Android ships ~1 billion smartphones worldwide annually.
Yeah…I think this person very obviously ignored the fact that Apple provides software support longer than ANYONE else. But I’d guess they’d also complain if that longer software support also started impacting performance, because there’s no way around that. There comes a point when hardware can’t flawlessly support software. And you can’t do a darn thing about that! There's ALREADY people who complain about performance when Apple provides software for as long as they already do.
Seems to me the politicians aren’t the only ones too clueless about tech…
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It reminds me of one MR user who keeps insisting that decade+ devices receive further Software/Security Updates for free or even as a paid service.
There are many challenges doing that.
How many consumers actually see any value of paying a new fee to support their decade+ computers? These people will see it as a scam/"greed" on the part of Microsoft or Apple as they previously received it for "free" for the 1st decade.
How many devices after a decade is still being used by the original purchaser? I'd put it at ≤20%. Economies of scale-wise would that cover the ~$100k compensation for a legacy support software dev? Regardless whether the device is a new product category or a mainframe dinosaur labor cost remains largely unchanged.
If you're just ~2,000 left worldwide how much of a subscription fee do you charge to cover the operational cost? It cannot be as cheap as a Netflix subscription. What do you do when those users start dying off or default?
Individually it is just easier & cheaper to just buy them a new device after support ends after ~decade. They become part of the user group that ain't a niche that is riding into the sunset.
This is not to say if you are a collector what you're doing is bad. It just isn't for anyone whose life does not revolve around extended support. There is life beyond electronics.
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Many still perfectly usable devices get dropped out of support every year. You just have to look at every single instance of yearly announcements about which devices get cut out to find tons of people voicing their discontent. You guys are drinking too much of the Apple kool-aid if you think that's acceptable, especially coming from a company also claiming to be eco-friendly. Apple is one of the richest companies in the world, they can certainly afford longer support.
No amount of money can make hardware support software. For almost every person that complains about "not enough support", someone else will complain about "too much" because it slowed their device down. I had a 6S that probably would have been better off with one year LESS than it got.
We aren't drinking the "Apple kool-aid". Some of us actually understand how software works. If you care so much about "not enough support", I'd suggest you air your grievances to literally every other company that offers FAR less. Apple's software support timeframe is pretty much unmatched.
There's a lot of irony in you saying politicians are too clueless about tech, since you don't seem to be too knowledgeable about it yourself. Especially because you're complaining about "not enough support" from the company that supports longer than anyone else...and by a pretty large margin.
I do not think you actually understand what you are reading nor understand how non-nerds use their devices.
Isn't 8-10 years long enough for you? My 2011 MBP 13" & 2012 iMac each had their last Security Update 9.5 years after launch.
2023 macOS Sonoma dropped support for some 2017 Macs but those will still receive their last 2022 macOS Ventura Security Update by 2025. That's 8 years.
Is it worth anyone's time to support ≤20% of the original owners of the device after a decade?
If you actually saw what devices are not getting further Security Updates you'd not spreading disinformation.
You just outed yourself as easily fooled by badly written clickbait.
The companies that will get most impacted by lengthening software support would be Google's Android.
They historically only provide less than half a decade's support. The reason being their MSRP forces very thin margins that often cuts out any R&D for software/security updates.
So what you are proposing would result in those Android companies to start charging their own equivalent of the Apple tax. When they refuse to do that then they're forced to exit the EU market thus removing the cheapest smartphones from that market.
So the people you think you are helping are harmed by well meaning nerds without know how on how software devs get paid.
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Nothing has minimal impact on design, but I interested to learn your strategy for making Phillips screws work.
I will again quote iFixit, those famous Apple planned obsolescence shills:
Do you own either of these? I'm glad they exist for the people who want to go that route, but is anyone going that route? If modularity and ease of repair was the priority for people, I'd expect those companies to do quite well.
Fairphone says they released Fairphone 4 with Android 11 and will only guarantee support up to Android 13.
So, if Apple were less well managed you’d be ok with letting them off the hook on support? You’re ok with the relatively shorter support period under Android because Samsung is worse at business?
I’m sure Apple’s competent engineering team can handle these kinds of challenges, building a phone that is both sufficiently strong and has a replaceable battery.
The important thing is to reduce e-waste and to not let machines go to waste before they have finished their useful lives. Batteries are a key reason why people dispose of a smartphone early. Makes perfect sense to have them replaceable.
The important thing is to reduce e-waste and to not let machines go to waste before they have finished their useful lives. Batteries are a key reason why people dispose of a smartphone early. Makes perfect sense to have them replaceable.
If ever Dell/HP/Lenovo/etc start marketing their laptops like framework then who'd buy framework?
This to me appears to be more like a social statement or virtue signaling oddity.
Will it be around before the 2030s? Using its current business model & current set of owners/investors... I'd be very surprised.
Ok, so you're backing off from your "phillips screws can do it much better with minimal impact" argument. I take that to mean you don't actually have an idea of how it would do it better, but we've made progress by narrowing the entire design down to two priorities.
Are those your only two priorities? Strong and replaceable battery? If you're willing to narrow your requirements to just those two, then I suspect that can surely be done. I'd hope you're not holding on to any stealth requirements here though-- no complaining later when size, weight, cost, and functionality suffer...
Last I heard they were happy with Apple’s levels of software support, but were more aiming at Android manufacturers and were looking to legislate 5 years minimum of OS support.
Don't let MR users demanding 2 decade support hear you. They'll insist that parts that old should still receive support even when the original owners already passed or chucked it to someone else
You seem to be worried about things long before they actually impact a design process. As it happens, I have a mechanical engineering degree with quite a lot of knowledge of product design. A few screws and some torsional strengthening won’t significantly alter the product.
I’m not going to waste further time on this discussion…
I grew up technically inclined and I know technically inclined people. Of ALL the people I've ever helped, talked to, and know (inclined or not) - very few care about battery life / longevity. Yes, they get annoyed when their old iPhone 6s is not lasting very long today - while I'm surprised they're still able to use the device today.
I also come from the perspective that I watched my Dell Latitude work laptop batteries degrade SIGNIFICANTLY in the first few years of ownership - such declines that would make Apple Users have a heart attack. I've always gotten the best battery life / longevity out of my Apple Devices compared to alternatives - by a pretty large margin.
While I'd love to be able to hot swap my batteries at will, I realize that I'm probably a significant minority compared to most users. I also like my compact MBP. I like that it doesn't creak, rattle, and make noise while I use it like most other laptops I've used. Apple devices are great.
If it is possible, I support making batteries easier to replace without compromising the current design quality. It would definitely extend the lifetime of some of these laptops without having to pay the $249 Apple charges to replace this MBP's battery (one I'm using now).
I also come from the perspective that I watched my Dell Latitude work laptop batteries degrade SIGNIFICANTLY in the first few years of ownership - such declines that would make Apple Users have a heart attack. I've always gotten the best battery life / longevity out of my Apple Devices compared to alternatives - by a pretty large margin.
While I'd love to be able to hot swap my batteries at will, I realize that I'm probably a significant minority compared to most users. I also like my compact MBP. I like that it doesn't creak, rattle, and make noise while I use it like most other laptops I've used. Apple devices are great.
If it is possible, I support making batteries easier to replace without compromising the current design quality. It would definitely extend the lifetime of some of these laptops without having to pay the $249 Apple charges to replace this MBP's battery (one I'm using now).
Yeah, it has the appearance of someone running for political office because they have an issue they want attention on, not because they expect to win. Most of the discussion I see is around how cool these modular systems are and how much better they're going to get as technology improves. Which is weird because we used to have more modular systems and part of the improvement in technology was to make them less modular.
I think people here just don't understand the nature of tradeoffs or how integrated these designs have become. iPhones have gotten more reliable over time and the batteries have gotten glued into the case-- for some reason nobody sees those as related. Reliability is seen as a response to embarrassing YouTube videos showing shattered glass, but adhesives are part of a grand corporate conspiracy.
Nobody wants a Fairphone or a Framework laptop. Because they're compromised to crap. The answer will come back that if Apple put their engineering team on the problem, they could certainly mitigate all those compromises. They did, they made the product less modular, at least for users in their kitchens. But that's because these companies are corrupt, and we know they're corrupt because Fairphone and Framework proved you can do it differently. But nobody wants a Fairphone or Framework laptop because they're compromised to crap. If Apple put their team on it, they'd do better... And around and round we go...
Modular systems are crap because those companies lack the engineering skill to do it well. Companies with engineering skill are all converging towards less modular systems.