Now Apple is copying Microsoft

[MarcNBarrett]

I have a Surface Book. Actually, I bought two, but I had to give one to my mother because she so positively adored it when I loaned it to her that I had to let her keep it. Although, when I pressed the "detach" button to show her that the display can be detached from the keyboard base, it scared her to death, and now she is afraid of that button.

The Surface Book really is a nice design. From the following article, Apple is planning to blatantly copy the Surface Book:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewanspence/2020/09/26/apple-macbook-pro-ipad-pro-patent-fulcrum-hinge/

Except for that extra hinge. I really do not see any purpose for it, other than as a desperate attempt to keep the Mac tablets and iPads separate. There is a logical convergence there, as a laptop display that is detached from the laptop IS a tablet. Apple is desperate to keep the Mac laptops and iPads from converging, so they throw extra crap into the design to keep that from happening. That also why you will never see a mac laptop with a full touch-screen display.

 

[cmaier]

Every single thing in the linked article, and every single thing you’ve written about it, are wrong.

 

[Abazigal]

I have a Surface Book. Actually, I bought two, but I had to give one to my mother because she so positively adored it when I loaned it to her that I had to let her keep it. Although, when I pressed the "detach" button to show her that the display can be detached from the keyboard base, it scared her to death, and now she is afraid of that button.

The Surface Book really is a nice design. From the following article, Apple is planning to blatantly copy the Surface Book:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewanspence/2020/09/26/apple-macbook-pro-ipad-pro-patent-fulcrum-hinge/

Except for that extra hinge. I really do not see any purpose for it, other than as a desperate attempt to keep the Mac tablets and iPads separate. There is a logical convergence there, as a laptop display that is detached from the laptop IS a tablet. Apple is desperate to keep the Mac laptops and iPads from converging, so they throw extra crap into the design to keep that from happening. That also why you will never see a mac laptop with a full touch-screen display.

I think for all intents and purposes, the iPad Pro with magic keyboard is the quintessential touchscreen MacBook. You have a laptop form factor, and you can just detach the “screen” from the keyboard when you just need the tablet.

The key difference is that the surface book is laptop first, tablet second. It’s the opposite for the iPad, and that explains the respective design choices that went into each of them.

 

[filu_]

However, an iPad with a keyboard does not become a laptop, which has been repeatedly discussed in the dedicated thread (e.g. it will not format your flash drive). Someone summed it up well then - there are things that the iPad does much better than the Macbook, and there are some that it will not do at all.

I am going to get rid of the Logitech keyboard, which I practically do not use, because it turned my Air into a piece of lead

I also think that Apple got lost, starting with the iPad Pro as a laptop replacement and now entering the market with lightweight laptops with i | Pad processors. Somehow they will have to prevent cannibalization.

 

[maflynn]

Every single thing in the linked article, and every single thing you’ve written about it, are wrong.

Actually, the fact remains (at least in my opinion) is that Apple responded to Microsoft's surface success by making the iPad more surface like. Its hard to ignore on the heals of the surface success, the iPad suddenly gained more multi tasking, a better keyboard and gasp a stylus which apple has long stated that it was not needed. No matter how you slice it the iPad pro is apple's response to the surface pro

 

[cmaier]

Actually, the fact remains (at least in my opinion) is that Apple responded to Microsoft's surface success by making the iPad more surface like. Its hard to ignore on the heals of the surface success, the iPad suddenly gained more multi tasking, a better keyboard and gasp a stylus which apple has long stated that it was not needed. No matter how you slice it the iPad pro is apple's response to the surface pro

What’s silly about this premise is that surface had success. It hasn’t. iPad revenue is somewhere between 2x-4x that of surface.

 

[LeeW]

I think you can argue that the iPad becoming what it is today as inevitable with a keyboard, mouse and pen. Despite that being something Jobs said would never happen. Times change.

That said, revenue is a blinded fanboys answer to justification. The Surface pro/book have been successful devices.

 

[maflynn]

What’s silly about this premise is that surface had success. It hasn’t. iPad revenue is somewhere between 2x-4x that of surface.

Doesn't that make then Apple's move to emulate them even more foolish?

 

[cmaier]

Doesn't that make then Apple's move to emulate them even more foolish?

You’re bootstrapping. Common logical fallacy. Apple’s not emulating them. They are executing their own plan.

 

[Jason2000]

I have a Surface Book. Actually, I bought two, but I had to give one to my mother because she so positively adored it when I loaned it to her that I had to let her keep it. Although, when I pressed the "detach" button to show her that the display can be detached from the keyboard base, it scared her to death, and now she is afraid of that button.

The Surface Book really is a nice design. From the following article, Apple is planning to blatantly copy the Surface Book:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewanspence/2020/09/26/apple-macbook-pro-ipad-pro-patent-fulcrum-hinge/

Except for that extra hinge. I really do not see any purpose for it, other than as a desperate attempt to keep the Mac tablets and iPads separate. There is a logical convergence there, as a laptop display that is detached from the laptop IS a tablet. Apple is desperate to keep the Mac laptops and iPads from converging, so they throw extra crap into the design to keep that from happening. That also why you will never see a mac laptop with a full touch-screen display.

You have to be kidding if you believe anything by that author. He is a complete joke. He is the definition of Apple hater.

 

[arche3]

You’re bootstrapping. Common logical fallacy. Apple’s not emulating them. They are executing their own plan.

Lol...

 

[AndyMacAndMic]

What’s silly about this premise is that surface had success. It hasn’t. iPad revenue is somewhere between 2x-4x that of surface.

The Surface line was (and still is) a halo product. Lots of other manufacturers followed to make higher quality (Windows) hybrid touch devices also. Hybrid touch devices are quite popular these days. When Apple noticed that trend they saw the bigger picture and started to add keyboards and pens to their tablets too.

Comparing the iPad to the MS Surface only seems like a limited view since the PC/Surface/hybrid world is not MS Surface alone. Apple noticed that and it seems you did not.

 

[maflynn]

You’re bootstrapping. Common logical fallacy. Apple’s not emulating them. They are executing their own plan.

No question they're executing their own plan and that includes emulating what MS is doing.

 

[sracer]

No question they're executing their own plan and that includes emulating what MS is doing.

Exactly. Without being privy to Apple's long-term product plans for the iPad, one really doesn't know if Apple had a plan that was independent of what anyone else was doing, or if they had factored in the competition.

At least in the tablet space, Apple has staked out their ground and only adjusted when they needed to. The first "adjustment" was the introduction of the iPad Mini. Apple was initially against the idea of a 7"-8" form-factor for the iPad. They held off producing one, and only capitulated when they saw the rise in sales of Android tablets in that size.

Apple did it again with the Apple Pencil. It was only after the Surface tablets with Active Pen gained attention and traction did Apple produce one.... and so on.

What I find interesting is how Apple fans are the most resistant to advances made to the iPad platform. Whether it is support for external keyboards, stylus, mouse, or external storage... they push back against those things until Apple produces them, and then they get on board. ?

The "if you want a keyboard for the iPad go buy a Macbook" people apparently were ignorant of the fact that Apple produced a keyboard dock for the 1st gen iPad.

 

[LeeW]

"if you want a keyboard for the iPad go buy a Macbook"

This, but today it's like Apple invented the new wheel for some people on here that said exactly that above. Of course, it's 'the way' Apple did their keyboard that somehow makes it entirely different from anything others have produced.

 

[derekamoss]

I think for all intents and purposes, the iPad Pro with magic keyboard is the quintessential touchscreen MacBook. You have a laptop form factor, and you can just detach the “screen” from the keyboard when you just need the tablet.

The key difference is that the surface book is laptop first, tablet second. It’s the opposite for the iPad, and that explains the respective design choices that went into each of them.

Except it still runs iPad OS......

 

[derekamoss]

What’s silly about this premise is that surface had success. It hasn’t. iPad revenue is somewhere between 2x-4x that of surface.

That doesn't make the Surface unsuccessful, just makes the iPad More successful.

 

[derekamoss]

What’s silly about this premise is that surface had success. It hasn’t. iPad revenue is somewhere between 2x-4x that of surface.

And yes because of the Surfaces success is the reason you know have keyboard, mouse and stylus support on the iPad. Unfortunately it's also the reason we have the touch bar....

 

[fokmik]

Stop thinking about surfaces....its Apple "fault" that are giving a lot of R&D money to the ipad....trying to make an ipad more like a macbook, instead of making the macbook even better

Now, lets see, after the mac transition how affected the ipad will be...since the revenue for both now, are close to each other
The future macs can run ipad/mac/win10 arm bases and linux apps....ipad cannot
They need some big features for the ipad or it will be a shadow for future macs....the ipad will be the bigger touchscreen device and thats all for the pro customers

 

[Dave245]

I think some people are overcritical on the Surface devices, yes I'm an Apple user however Apple clearly copied Microsoft in bringing the Magic Keyboard with truckload support to the iPad Pro. A few years back Apple never wanted people to use a trackpad on iPad's, I believe they added it to last years iPad Pro (via software) in order to test the waters, that's why it was hidden in the accessibility features.

Apple do however take their time to perfect things that they bring, people really seem to like the Magic Keyboard and trackpad support, regardless of its high price. At the end of the day I think it depends on what you prefer, Apple does a lot of things right, however they don't always get it right and sometimes they get it REALLY wrong (butterfly keyboard anyone).

The Surface range aren't bad devices, they are jut not as popular as iPads. I do think that by adding the magic keyboard and trackpad support, Apple are admitting that Microsoft was right about the 2 in 1 and it's form factor.

 

[maflynn]

I can’t say I am in love with the surface pro form factor.

Well it doesn't have the apple logo, and it seems that you find little fault for things that do have the fruit logo and are critical of those that don't ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

people really seem to like the Magic Keyboard and trackpad support,

I don't think you'll find too much arguments about apple's implementation, I think they do about the best job for designing products. While they do emulate/copy others what they produce is generally top notch

 

[Abazigal]

Well it doesn't have the apple logo, and it seems that you find little fault for things that do have the fruit logo and are critical of those that don't ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Well, what can I say? I started first experimenting with using my ipad in the classroom in 2012, and I wouldn’t still be doing this right now if it weren’t working great for me.

Airplay mirroring with the Apple TV in 2013, the iPad Pro with Apple Pencil support in 2016, the Smart Keyboard in 2018, as well as having awesome apps like Notability and LumaFusion to work with.

Home-based learning earlier this year as well. Not that I would wish this pandemic upon anyone, but being able to work from home allowed me to use my Apple hardware in ways I never could at work. Especially zooming with my students on my 5k imac, or mirroring my ipad to my imac via the air server app, or recording screencasts on my ipad, editing in LumaFusion and uploading to youtube.

Here’s a photo of my apple products in action, taken back in April. Again, not saying they can’t be done with other brands, but again, my colleagues are the ones having issues with their school laptops, issues that I have been spared from because I haven’t really had a need to use it apart from accessing network files, and it goes back to my oft-asserted narrative that while Apple products do cost more upfront, they quickly pay for themselves in the form of greater productivity and fewer problems overall.

It’s been one hell of a ride. That’s why I am happy with the Apple ecosystem, and that’s why I see myself continuing to use Apple products for a good long time to come.

 

[maflynn]

not saying they can’t be done with other brands

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, you can do remote learning and working with apple, no question, but you seem to be implying that's not possible for other platforms?

I've been working remote for years, and for 2020, I've been rocking with a Razer, and an external monitor. I have zero problems, and have access to so many more apps and games then you can find on a Mac ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Let also say you can be an apple fan and NOT find fault in every product that doesn't have a fruit logo. So many apple fans here have a very binary mentality, if its not apple its bad.

 

[Abazigal]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, you can do remote learning and working with apple, no question, but you seem to be implying that's not possible for other platforms?

I've been working remote for years, and for 2020, I've been rocking with a Razer, and an external monitor. I have zero problems, and have access to so many more apps and games then you can find on a Mac ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I am saying that thus far, my experience with Apple products has been better than with other brands out there. It’s not so much a question of whether something can be done on a particular device or not, but how that task is done.

You make a fair point about games, but I find that I haven’t really had much time or interest in games these days, and the apps I need, I can generally find them on iOS (which is my main computing device at work).

It doesn’t mean my windows laptop is rotting in one corner either. Here’s my workstation setup.

And that’s where it stays throughout the day - at my desk. My colleagues bring their laptop to class for teaching, though I am able to perform the same task with my ipad and the Apple TV I have set up in my classrooms.

I use it mainly for working on google docs, printing and accessing network files, but well, windows is still windows (did you know that my laptop decided to reboot itself in the middle of a presentation once in order to install updates?) and I find that by and large, I am still more comfortable working with iOS and my ipad, limitations and all.

And that’s why my impression of the surface pro form factor hasn’t really been that positive overall, and it’s not just me. Yes, it’s thin and light, but the keyboard and trackpad experience leave much to be desired, the usb hub is thicker than the laptop itself, battery life isn’t that fantastic especially under load, and HBL (home-based learning) showed the constraints of intel processors in a thin form factor (an issue you don’t really have with iPads and ARM chips).

iOS is well, iOS, and there is something to be said about the long battery life, the ease of use and the convenience an ipad affords when used in the right situation.

And with each passing day, I find that my ipad is able to take on more tasks that once used to be the exclusive purview of PCs. It’s hard to be positive about something when my experiences with it haven’t been all that stellar - which is why I fled to Apple in the first place!

 

[ian87w]

However, an iPad with a keyboard does not become a laptop, which has been repeatedly discussed in the dedicated thread (e.g. it will not format your flash drive). Someone summed it up well then - there are things that the iPad does much better than the Macbook, and there are some that it will not do at all.

I am going to get rid of the Logitech keyboard, which I practically do not use, because it turned my Air into a piece of lead

I also think that Apple got lost, starting with the iPad Pro as a laptop replacement and now entering the market with lightweight laptops with i | Pad processors. Somehow they will have to prevent cannibalization.

And one can also say the Surface Book without its keyboard does not become a tablet experience. I have a Lenovo Miix, which is a Surface Pro clone, and Windows 10 tablet mode leaves a lot to be desired.