Now that we have no PWM on MBA M2 what to do with FRC/Dithering?

[jackblack123]

It was as a joy to hear that M2 MBA display has no PWM at all brightness levels (refer notebookcheck review) it is excellent news for people who are sensitive to PWM. For them them the only option is to reduce white point and keeping brightness high.


But there is another concern with M2 Macbook air, to achieve the 10bit MBA M2 uses (8bit + FRC aka temporal dithering) which generates flicker and is another major reason for eye strain.

Is there any way we can fallback to 8bit and disable dithering by changing color profile or something to sRGB IEC 61966-2 or any other suggestions?

 

[Animalk]

Agreed. It was a very important buying point for me as well. I hope we can get an answer to this question.

 

[jackblack123]

yes i am waiting for someone to help us out here

 

[4419867]

But there is another concern with M2 Macbook air, to achieve the 10bit MBA M2 uses (8bit + FRC aka temporal dithering) which generates flicker and is another major reason for eye strain.

Oh no.
Didn't know this with FRC. Even discovered that the flicker free TV I was thinking of buying uses FRC (8-bit + FRC). 🤦‍♀️

FRC seems very common as well.

Might have to wait for flicker-free OLED after all. Know that LG has certified flicker-free TVs and they are also true 10-bit. We need it on phones/tablets/laptops too!

 

[Odessa]

It was as a joy to hear that M2 MBA display has no PWM at all brightness levels (refer notebookcheck review) it is excellent news for people who are sensitive to PWM. For them them the only option is to reduce white point and keeping brightness high.


But there is another concern with M2 Macbook air, to achieve the 10bit MBA M2 uses (8bit + FRC aka temporal dithering) which generates flicker and is another major reason for eye strain.

Is there any way we can fallback to 8bit and disable dithering by changing color profile or something to sRGB IEC 61966-2 or any other suggestions?

Do you mean this? This should work right?

 

[jackblack123]

I just need confirmation that switching to sRGB IEC61966-2.1 actually turns 8 + 2 frc aka dithering off. Turning the display to an 8bit one without temporal dithering.@odessa

 

[Odessa]

I just need confirmation that switching to sRGB IEC61966-2.1 actually turns 8 + 2 frc aka dithering off. Turning the display to an 8bit one without temporal dithering.@odessa

Do you know a reliable way for me to check? I would be happy to help. I have a display calibrator or I could borrow a modern iphone that could record on high fps.

 

[jackblack123]

I actually do not know, i am hoping someone will guide us how to check that

 

[Karut]

Tried this tool? https://www.madrau.com/srx_download/download.html

For some Macbooks switching to "millions of colors" has made a difference. Not sure if this option is available on the newest MacBooks.

 

[jackblack123]

Tried this tool? https://www.madrau.com/srx_download/download.html

For some Macbooks switching to "millions of colors" has made a difference. Not sure if this option is available on the newest MacBooks.

Millions of colours is not available in apple silicon checked directly with the developer already

 

[Odessa]

I've been using this laptop intensively for the last couple of days, so far I don't feel any eye strain. My previous macbook was the dualcore unibody macbook from 2009 and it was burning my eyes.
For what is worth, other people on this forum seems to have no complains about the M2 air.

Has anyone tried the M2 MacBook Air?

Have been holding off buying a new MacBook for years now, but need to upgrade for the latest version of Xcode. Had to return the 14” pro because of it causin...

ledstrain.org

 

[4419867]

Do iPad Air M1 and iPad Pro 11 M1 also use 8-bit+FRC?

 

[MICHAELSD]

FWIW the display seems to look different besides brightness in Low Power Mode.

 

[jackblack123]

Do iPad Air M1 and iPad Pro 11 M1 also use 8-bit+FRC?

Very good question , please if any one could confirm this

 

[moe32]

I have the MBA M1 and dang my eyes are turning red when looking at the display!

 

[Odessa]

Notebookcheck has confirmed the air m2 is free of temporal dithering in their review of the maxed out m2 air

Apple MacBook Air M2 review - The faster 10-core GPU isn't worth it

Notebookcheck tests the new MacBook Air M2 with 16 GB of RAM, 1-TB SSD, and the faster 10-core GPU.

www.notebookcheck.net

 

[Odessa]

I have the MBA M1 and dang my eyes are turning red when looking at the display!

Actually, me too when using the air m2.. I am thinking of applying an anti glare layer on top of the screen.
I think it would help a lot because now I am just boosting the brightness to super high levels to deal with the ambient reflection.
Before I had a pc laptop with antiglare screen and my eyes where so easy...

edit: so i switched back to light/day theme settings, and it's much better, I can lower the brightness but still have no reflection. I feel like dark theme works better with antiglare screens.

 

[moe32]

Actually, me too when using the air m2.. I am thinking of applying an anti glare layer on top of the screen.
I think it would help a lot because now I am just boosting the brightness to super high levels to deal with the ambient reflection.
Before I had a pc laptop with antiglare screen and my eyes where so easy...

edit: so i switched back to light/day theme settings, and it's much better, I can lower the brightness but still have no reflection. I feel like dark theme works better with antiglare screens.

Could you please update me how the m2 is working for you?

 

[Odessa]

Could you please update me how the m2 is working for you?

Because of the screen time app, i found out I've been doing way too much screen time since I got this laptop. like between 7 and 11 hours almost every days. I need to cut it down to a more reasonable amount. So I can have very tired eyes, red and crying at the end of the day. It got better since I switched to day/light mode with lower brightness.
It's hard to compare with my previous laptop because windows 10 has no screen time app. I think I was using it less because it was getting slow and noisy with a lot of hardware issues piling up.

Not sure if that's very helpful then sorry...

The computer I had before the pc laptop was a macbook unibody with intel dual core circa 2009. I remember it was burning my eyes too... I have very limited experience to be honest, but I think that overall macbook screen are quite aggressive to the eyes.
It's a trade off with the low res, low brightness, washed out colors of most monitors...
unless you are willing to spend $1K+ on a monitor...

 

[0906742]

But there is another concern with M2 Macbook air, to achieve the 10bit MBA M2 uses (8bit + FRC aka temporal dithering) which generates flicker and is another major reason for eye strain.

It would be interesting to see actual LCD panel specifications used in these machines. I doubt they are not real 10bit but 8bit+frc which would mean there is flickering. However in one test there seem to be confirmed they are not doing FRC flickering which would suggest real 10bit panel. Anyway, I'm not certain this can be measured 100% sure using 240fps camera in iPhone, I understood it would require much faster camera combined to microscope but I realize this is type of tool pretty much no reviewers have in their hands.

There was interesting reading about this and MBA M2 in the Ledstrain.org forum.

 

[0906742]

Do iPad Air M1 and iPad Pro 11 M1 also use 8-bit+FRC?

I think my iPad Air M1 might have 8bit+FRC because I'm sensing some kind of flickering in certain gray patterns with low backlight in dark room especially when I was using autobrightness setting and it was stepping down brightness after switching off the lights in the room. Very had to spot but it is there. Not sure it is the same in 11" Pro.

 

[ronin510]

Do iPad Air M1 and iPad Pro 11 M1 also use 8-bit+FRC?

Very good question , please if any one could confirm this

I think my iPad Air M1 might have 8bit+FRC because I'm sensing some kind of flickering in certain gray patterns with low backlight in dark room especially when I was using autobrightness setting and it was stepping down brightness after switching off the lights in the room. Very had to spot but it is there. Not sure it is the same in 11" Pro.

If you look at the either the iPad Pro M1 or iPad Air M1 Tech Specs, it says "Supports full native resolution on the built-in display at millions of colors." So there would be no point in it being 8-bit + FRC (1 billion+ colors). I don't think the iPad would be doing 6-bit + FRC to achieve the "millions of colors."

 

[0906742]

If you look at the either the iPad Pro M1 or iPad Air M1 Tech Specs, it says "Supports full native resolution on the built-in display at millions of colors." So there would be no point in it being 8-bit + FRC (1 billion+ colors). I don't think the iPad would be doing 6-bit + FRC to achieve the "millions of colors."

Interesting. I totally missed that Millions of colors mention and I was under the impression screen supports billions of colors (10bit or variant of that). I guess then it could be 6bit + FRC. I had MBP 13” 2019 model myself and it had the worst color banding I’ve seen in displays for a long time and I though it might have also been 6bit + FRC so maybe it could be the same in iPads too. However no banding in my iPad Air 5 but some kind of dithering noise is there in some situations (very similar what I saw in Ledstrain.org forums). Too bad there does not seem to be any confirmation anywhere telling actual display bit depths so that is only my assumption. Obviously reason could be some panel driver feature.

 

[teddybearstand]

My eyes get dry after using the display for a few hours. With no PWM or dithering, I wonder what the cause is. I've had the M2 air for a week or so now and my eyes seem to have adjusted a bit, though.

 

[0906742]

My eyes get dry after using the display for a few hours. With no PWM or dithering, I wonder what the cause is. I've had the M2 air for a week or so now and my eyes seem to have adjusted a bit, though.

It is probably for this reason: https://ledstrain.org/d/1782-videos-of-macbook-air-m2-flickering
See the Youtube video link in the first message of that thread.
Flickering in MBA M2 in that video looks very bad to me. I'd say my iPad Air 5 flickering is more like how it shows in MBA M1 in that video. But I definitely notice it when I look at it certain ways. I'm not sure what that shimmering actually is, it does appear kinda like FRC would but I guess it could be some other reason too down to panel driver, hardware and/or even OS driver issue or feature.