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blackfox

macrumors 65816
Feb 18, 2003
1,210
4,574
PDX
jemeinc said:
SNIP...SNIP...
Second of all, you're hatred for Bush has left you blinded... It's funny how you say Bush has made Iraq terrorist HQ, yet Saddam & his $25,000 payouts to suicide bombers' families & his funding & organization of terrorist groups over the years have nothing to do with this... Before you try to accuse me of believing that Saddam was directly involved with Al Quieda & 9/11 I'll save you the trouble - I don't believe that... But please don't tell me you believe Saddam had no ties to terrorism, because it's just fact that he did...

Now before you try to throw your political beliefs at me save your fingers- I've done my research, understand both candidates plans, & will vote on which one I believe has the better chance of being effective... Which one I choose doesn't really matter, what does matter is that I've made my choice based on research, not party lines... I'm an independant- I don't give a crap about republican or democrats... They'd both run me out for some of my beliefs on the "major" issues that define the 2...

Fair and decent points. I believe it is a fundamental responsibility of citizens/voters to research their candidates thoroughly, even if there is some stuff you don't enjoy reading (ie cognitive dissonance).

As for your point about terrorist funding, I would point out (somewhat rhetorically):

- that the definition of "terrorist" is somewhat in the eye of the beholder. One man's "freedom fighter" is another man's terrorist.

- Since terrorism is really a tactic and one closely intertwined with guerilla-warfare, any people, in uniform or otherwise, on either side, can be seen as "terrorists". People fund, train and equip both. Both think what they are doing is "right" and "justified".

- terrorism, as we are discussing it, is often a reactionary and desperate tactic. Used, most notably, against Isreal and lately the US, two well-funded and militarily-superior nations who are considered "interlopers". When you discuss solutions to terrorism, I feel this should be a consideration. BTW, this often has nothing to do with the "average" citizen of any side.

- it is common in the Arab and/or Islamic world, to fund Islamic causes, including armed-resistance or sacrifice in the name of Islam. In Saddam's case, as ruler of a relatively unpopular secular country, it does not hurt to curry favor.

- the US (and other countries) have supplied "freedom fighters" with money, supplies, weapons and logistics (ie Contras) that have often been put to questionable ends. We supply these same things to many governments whose tactics/policy either support or are terrorist in nature.

- Saudi Arabia and Iran are bigger sponsors of terrorists. No action was taken, even if the former had a more concrete link to 9/11 (nationalities of highjackers, Bin Laden money).

This has all been in the interest of fairness...
 

jemeinc

macrumors 6502a
Feb 14, 2004
771
0
South Jersey
blackfox said:
Fair and decent points. I believe it is a fundamental responsibility of citizens/voters to research their candidates thoroughly, even if there is some stuff you don't enjoy reading (ie cognitive dissonance).

As for your point about terrorist funding, I would point out (somewhat rhetorically):

- that the definition of "terrorist" is somewhat in the eye of the beholder. One man's "freedom fighter" is another man's terrorist.

- Since terrorism is really a tactic and one closely intertwined with guerilla-warfare, any people, in uniform or otherwise, on either side, can be seen as "terrorists". People fund, train and equip both. Both think what they are doing is "right" and "justified".

- terrorism, as we are discussing it, is often a reactionary and desperate tactic. Used, most notably, against Isreal and lately the US, two well-funded and militarily-superior nations who are considered "interlopers". When you discuss solutions to terrorism, I feel this should be a consideration. BTW, this often has nothing to do with the "average" citizen of any side.

- it is common in the Arab and/or Islamic world, to fund Islamic causes, including armed-resistance or sacrifice in the name of Islam. In Saddam's case, as ruler of a relatively unpopular secular country, it does not hurt to curry favor.

- the US (and other countries) have supplied "freedom fighters" with money, supplies, weapons and logistics (ie Contras) that have often been put to questionable ends. We supply these same things to many governments whose tactics/policy either support or are terrorist in nature.

- Saudi Arabia and Iran are bigger sponsors of terrorists. No action was taken, even if the former had a more concrete link to 9/11 (nationalities of highjackers, Bin Laden money).

This has all been in the interest of fairness...

Very fair post... All factual... Can't ask for much more- now it's up to the voter to sort through the facts & decide which course of action they will choose to put their belief in...
 

jemeinc

macrumors 6502a
Feb 14, 2004
771
0
South Jersey
skunk said:
Oh come on. What ties? What funding and organization of terrorist groups? All this - apart from ex-gratia payments to the families of those who died fighting Israeli oppression - has been comprehensively and repeatedly debunked. Let it go.

Al Answar Al Islam for one... You can choose to just throw away the fact that he paid families of suicide bombers if you choose- It's hard to claim, just based on that FACT, that he hasn't supported terrorism... Your opinion that Israel is an oppressor, imho, isn't justification for him to support terrorist actions- financially or otherwise... Please don't think that's a knock or a discredit to your opinion about Israel- it's not- I respect your opinion- whether I share it or not... But because someone truly believes one is oppressive, that doesn't make enabling terrorists acts alright, imho...
 

skunk

macrumors G4
Jun 29, 2002
11,758
6,107
Republic of Ukistan
jemeinc said:
Al Answar Al Islam for one...
Based in Kurdish territory outside SH's control, as you should know.

You can choose to just throw away the fact that he paid families of suicide bombers if you choose- It's hard to claim, just based on that FACT, that he hasn't supported terrorism... Your opinion that Israel is an oppressor, imho, isn't justification for him to support terrorist actions- financially or otherwise... Please don't think that's a knock or a discredit to your opinion about Israel- it's not- I respect your opinion- whether I share it or not... But because someone truly believes one is oppressive, that doesn't make enabling terrorists acts alright, imho...
So all those Americans who donated to Noraid were "supporting terrorists"? I'm not seeking to justify terrorism, I'm saying that making payments to the families of dead suicide bombers does not make Saddam Hussein a "supporter of terrorism" in any meaningful sense.
 

jemeinc

macrumors 6502a
Feb 14, 2004
771
0
South Jersey
skunk said:
Based in Kurdish territory outside SH's control, as you should know.


So all those Americans who donated to Noraid were "supporting terrorists"? I'm not seeking to justify terrorism, I'm saying that making payments to the families of dead suicide bombers does not make Saddam Hussein a "supporter of terrorism" in any meaningful sense.

It's been widely reported by many news outlets (in other words both Fox & CNN-;-)...) that SH was the founder & financier of this group... Outside of his control or not, the consensus is it was his...

As far as your Noraid comparison- whatever- don't agree with your comparison- & I'll leave it at that... If you don't think the leader of a nation directly making payments & public offers of payments, to suicide bombers' families is supporting terrorism, we'll just agree to disagree... I really see no need to justify the notion that SH was anything other than lower than whale crap- his actions speak for themselves... I'll keep my opinions on whether or not the world is better without him in any sort of position of power to myself... Have a nice night...
 

solvs

macrumors 603
Jun 25, 2002
5,684
1
LaLaLand, CA
jemeinc said:
I'll keep my opinions on whether or not the world is better without him in any sort of position of power to myself...
I doubt many people would argue that the world isn't better off without him.

The problem I, and a lot of people, have is how the war is being fought. Not the fact that there is a war. I know hindsight is 20/20, but this was poorly planned at best and we were mislead at least. I really hated the way anyone who disagreed with Bush was branded traitorous and unAmerican. Especially considering how they turned out to be right, while this administration has been fairly wrong. A lot. Why are we in Iraq instead of any of the other countries that pose(d) more of a threat? The reason keeps changing.

You don't do that. You don't decide to go to war, especially without a plan, and make up the reasons for why you did it as you go along. Not to mention all of the other domestic issues where Bush has promised one thing, and has done another.
 

~Shard~

macrumors P6
Jun 4, 2003
18,377
48
1123.6536.5321
solvs said:
I doubt many people would argue that the world isn't better off without him.

The problem I, and a lot of people, have is how the war is being fought. Not the fact that there is a war. I know hindsight is 20/20, but this was poorly planned at best and we were mislead at least. I really hated the way anyone who disagreed with Bush was branded traitorous and unAmerican. Especially considering how they turned out to be right, while this administration has been fairly wrong. A lot. Why are we in Iraq instead of any of the other countries that pose(d) more of a threat? The reason keeps changing.

You don't do that. You don't decide to go to war, especially without a plan, and make up the reasons for why you did it as you go along. Not to mention all of the other domestic issues where Bush has promised one thing, and has done another.

Very well said. I know there was a great deal of surprise here in Canada when Bush initially took his "if you're not with us you're against us" attitude. Since Canada opted not to support the US in their efforts, Bush essentially condemned us, which I thought was unnecessary and harsh. Definitely a narrow-minded view and not a good way to make friends... ;)

The whole bad-mouthing of the French really got to me as well. "Oooh, the French don't want to help us in our poorly-planned war, so let's rename "French Fries" to "Freedom Fries" - that'll show them." How utterly childish.
 

solvs

macrumors 603
Jun 25, 2002
5,684
1
LaLaLand, CA
~Shard~ said:
The whole bad-mouthing of the French really got to me as well. "Oooh, the French don't want to help us in our poorly-planned war, so let's rename "French Fries" to "Freedom Fries" - that'll show them." How utterly childish.
Exactly. The French stood with us after 9/11. They lost people too, we keep forgetting. Then when they questioned our leader's decisions (which we now know Bush was wrong), we spit in their faces. Now we hate each other again.

And darnit, now here I am defending France again. I hate it when that happens. :p Watch out Canada! Yer not with us, yer aginst us.
 

space2go

macrumors regular
Feb 5, 2004
162
0
solvs said:
Why are we in Iraq instead of any of the other countries that pose(d) more of a threat?

Because those countries actually have weapons of mass destruction.
What kind of madman would attack one of those?
 

jemeinc

macrumors 6502a
Feb 14, 2004
771
0
South Jersey
solvs said:
I doubt many people would argue that the world isn't better off without him.

The problem I, and a lot of people, have is how the war is being fought. Not the fact that there is a war. I know hindsight is 20/20, but this was poorly planned at best and we were mislead at least. I really hated the way anyone who disagreed with Bush was branded traitorous and unAmerican. Especially considering how they turned out to be right, while this administration has been fairly wrong. A lot. Why are we in Iraq instead of any of the other countries that pose(d) more of a threat? The reason keeps changing.

You don't do that. You don't decide to go to war, especially without a plan, and make up the reasons for why you did it as you go along. Not to mention all of the other domestic issues where Bush has promised one thing, and has done another.


Fair points... I don't think the actual 'war' itself was poorly planned- but the exit plan , as well as the post war strategies, were definitely botched... It's fair to say that's all a part of the 'war' & should have been better planned...

As far as people being labeled, that's as old as time- doesn't make it right but anytime your talking about loss of lives, anyone's lives (not just Americans), emotions are high... This goes both ways though- remember Vietnam ?.. Anyone who supported or fought in that war was basically made to feel ashamed of themselves & most even hid the fact for many years... I know several Vietnam Vets & believe me, they don't talk too much about it...
 

solvs

macrumors 603
Jun 25, 2002
5,684
1
LaLaLand, CA
jemeinc said:
I know several Vietnam Vets & believe me, they don't talk to much about...
As someone who knows people in Iraq right now, I know better than that. Love the warrior, hate the war. Others seem to as well, because we don't want any more Vietnams. We just want them to come home safely, and I don't think this administration knows how to do that. I can only hope Kerry does, because he has been there and seems to have a level head. I could be wrong, but he couldn't be worse than Bush.
 

drift

macrumors newbie
Aug 31, 2004
14
0
jemeinc said:
1st off, kid, you don't know my opinion- therefore you don't know whether I'm wrong or right- or even if there is any right way to handle terrorism...If there is, noone's figured it out yet- you included...

duh old dude

10/10 ;)
 

MacFan26

macrumors 65816
Jan 8, 2003
1,219
1
San Francisco, California
solvs said:
Exactly. The French stood with us after 9/11. They lost people too, we keep forgetting. Then when they questioned our leader's decisions (which we now know Bush was wrong), we spit in their faces. Now we hate each other again.
Does anyone remember when Chirac spoke at the memorial day event in France last year? I thought his speech was really meaningful and I won't soon forget it. I don't think the French are very anti-American, they're more anit-Bush, like the rest of the world.
 

Timelessblur

macrumors 65816
Jun 26, 2004
1,086
0
spinner said:
I will not be voting for anyone. Why you ask? Because niether one is worth voting for, there is no lesser of two evils. Frankly, I don't see Kerry changing anything for the better and we all see how Bush runs the show. If you are wondering, I am a registered Republican and no I did not vote for Bush in 2000, I voted for McCain in the primary after he lost I felt we had the same situation then, neither Bush nor Gore was worth damn, so I didn't vote.

If you dont vote you have no right to complain about anything the goverment does. (That excludes people who cant or couldnt vote in the last election).

I have end several politic debates on that rule. I ask did you vote? They say no and my answer is simple You loose all right to complain. Personly if you vote you gain the right to ***** it is that simple.

I hate people who complain and yet refuse to vote. You can do a right in on the bollet. Every vote counts.
 

~Shard~

macrumors P6
Jun 4, 2003
18,377
48
1123.6536.5321
Timelessblur said:
If you dont vote you have no right to complain about anything the goverment does.

So to all of you out there who fall into this category, just vote for whoever, it doesn't matter (since your vote won't mean anything anyway) and then you can complain all you like without people bugging you like this! :eek: :p
 

chanoc

macrumors 6502
May 20, 2003
339
0
Anchorage, Alaska USA
Anybody but Bubba Bush!

Kerry was not the flavor of Democrat I wanted to see running for office (Anybody remember Dennis Kucinich ?), but Kerry is better than Bush! :)

Edit: I voted last week! 100% Democrat: Kerry for President; Tony Knowles US Senate; and local stuff too. Yes on Ballot Measure 2. :D

[T]he November initiative, officially known as Ballot Measure 2, would remove all criminal penalties for marijuana possession, production, or sales and require the state legislature to craft regulations to govern the legal sale of the weed.
 

~Shard~

macrumors P6
Jun 4, 2003
18,377
48
1123.6536.5321
Vader said:
I won't be able to vote until next election. (I'm only 15)

You're just blazing through all these old polls, aren't ya Vader? ;) Ah well, it's not the first time I've seen a newbie post one-liner replies to all the old polls just to start bumping up their post count. :p :cool:
 
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