MP 7,1 Radeon VII in the 7,1 Mac Pro

[bsbeamer]

Thanks for these tests. I don't understand why the Vega 64 scores higher than the Vega VII. This sounds flawed, does Apple block the performance of the Vega VII intentionally here? This is so typical Apple prison box ....

Vega56, Vega64, and even RX580 benchmark higher than nearly all of the “current” GPUs (2019 releases). This is almost certainly due to drivers that need to be tweaked, but Vega64 is still the compute beast. Wish was easier to find brand new units at decent prices. The used market is up charging (still).

No reason an RX580 should be 15-20% faster benchmarks than RX 5700 XT, and that’s only observed in macOS Catalina. Does not happen in Windows benchmarks.

 

[PowerMike G5]

Vega56, Vega64, and even RX580 benchmark higher than nearly all of the “current” GPUs (2019 releases). This is almost certainly due to drivers that need to be tweaked, but Vega64 is still the compute beast. Wish was easier to find brand new units at decent prices. The used market is up charging (still).

No reason an RX580 should be 15-20% faster benchmarks than RX 5700 XT, and that’s only observed in macOS Catalina. Does not happen in Windows benchmarks.

In Mojave on my 5,1, I definitely got an increase going from my older Vega64 to the Radeon VII, so not sure why the scores
are lower in Max’s tests.
One reason may be what he said.. that Apple is actually using a different driver for these off the shelf GPUs versus the native Pro Vega II MPX module now.

 

[bsbeamer]

Is your MP5,1 on Mojave or Catalina?

I still believe what is being observed in all MP7,1 testing right now is a Catalina GPU issue. I’m noticing almost the same exact issues when testing MBP16,1 and eGPU. Can’t test MPX that way, however.

Almost no reason an MP5,1 with RX580 should out benchmark the MBP16,1 with dual GPU (eGPU and dGPU) in METAL scores by 15-20%. Real world is as much as 33% faster in MP5,1 in Mojave with RX580 for METAL tasks. It’s actually almost baffling. Waiting for 10.15.3 and W5700X at this point, not a ton of other options.

 

[PowerMike G5]

Is your MP5,1 on Mojave or Catalina?

I still believe what is being observed in all MP7,1 testing right now is a Catalina GPU issue. I’m noticing almost the same exact issues when testing MBP16,1 and eGPU. Can’t test MPX that way, however.

Almost no reason an MP5,1 with RX580 should out benchmark the MBP16,1 with dual GPU (eGPU and dGPU) in METAL scores by 15-20%. Real world is as much as 33% faster in MP5,1 in Mojave with RX580 for METAL tasks. It’s actually almost baffling. Waiting for 10.15.3 and W5700X at this point, not a ton of other options.

I’m currently on Mojave at the moment.

It is baffling given barefeats mentioned the Radeon VII beat out the Pro Vega II in 2 out of 3 tests in the 7,1. So I guess we need to wait for more tests to come in.

 

[shuto]

A massive question that I haven’t seen answered fully is - what is the max number of GPUs Mac Pro can support.

in this test

Mac Pro 2019: Interchangeable Parts, T2 Security & Custom Configuration - MacFinder Blog

Our Mac Pro 2019 arrived today and after 15 short minutes of looking at how pretty it is, and it truly is, we set to taking it apart. Our aim was to find

macfinder.co.uk

It sounds like they got three GPUs working - MPX (I guess 580x) plus two other GPU PC Cards.

and in this thread Max Tech thinks this could work with vega II + two PC GPU cards. This would be great setup.

Would VegaII duo also allow an extra two PC Card GPUs?

this is all pretty wishful speculative thinking until someone specifically shows it works.

 

[norsemen]

My main concern with a triple GPU setup, is the power consumption.

The Radeon Pro Vega II draws 475W TDP, while each Radeon VII draws 295W TDP.

This leaves little room left for other things.

The Radeon Pro 580X has a lower TDP of 150W. My guess is that this will be a better fit for a triple GPU setup with the RX580X main job is to drive display.

The 580X MPX module is also the only one which is half height, which leaves me to think there are more room for the thermal dynamics to work properly.

 

[Passingby]

475W TDP is insane for another version of VII/Mi60.

The card has been added to the TechPowerUp database now

AMD Radeon Pro Vega II Specs

AMD Vega 20, 1720 MHz, 4096 Cores, 256 TMUs, 64 ROPs, 32768 MB HBM2, 806 MHz, 4096 bit

www.techpowerup.com

 

[norsemen]

I wouldn’t rule out that Apple is doing some magic here with the MPX module, but from the technical specifications it looks difficult

 

[Grumply]

With Apple's terrible history of driver support, do people really think it's a good idea to invest in Radeon VIIs when they're currently so hamstrung performance-wise?

 

[PowerMike G5]

With Apple's terrible history of driver support, do people really think it's a good idea to invest in Radeon VIIs when they're currently so hamstrung performance-wise?

That's a tough assessment because nothing lives in a vacuum. For example, you have to factor in price... currently a Radeon VII is $499 new on Amazon while the Pro Vega II is $2400. Given Apple's current history of support of a wider range of AMD GPUs for eGPU usage, more things are possible now vs even just a few years ago.

Barefeats initial tests indicate the Radeon VII beating the Radeon Pro Vega II in 2 out of 3 tests. My usage of the Radeon VII in the cMP has shown a substantial jump over a Vega 64.

So even if that Pro Vega II is technically better performing, is the 5 fold price increase worth it? It certainly won't be a 5 fold increase in performance.

 

[norsemen]

Latest tweet from Barefeats. I think he just confirms what Max Yuryev said

«I've installed and tested the Radeon VII inside the 2019 Mac Pro just above the Pro Vega II Duo MPX. I could probably squeeze a second one in an adjacent x16 PCIe 3.0 slot but there are power ports for only one. You can run a 4th or 5th GPU externally using an eGPU box.»

 

[mattspace]

Latest tweet from Barefeats. I think he just confirms what Max Yurev said

«I've installed and tested the Radeon VII inside the 2019 Mac Pro just above the Pro Vega II Duo MPX. I could probably squeeze a second one in an adjacent x16 PCIe 3.0 slot but there are power ports for only one. You can run a 4th or 5th GPU externally using an eGPU box.»

can you snake in external power feeds to drive more GPUs internally, or are you going to start running out of pci lanes so they may as well be in eGPU?

 

[Z28McCrory]

Latest tweet from Barefeats. I think he just confirms what Max Yurev said

«I've installed and tested the Radeon VII inside the 2019 Mac Pro just above the Pro Vega II Duo MPX. I could probably squeeze a second one in an adjacent x16 PCIe 3.0 slot but there are power ports for only one. You can run a 4th or 5th GPU externally using an eGPU box.»

The main thing I’d like to find answers to right now (between Max and Barefeats), is the performance of VII vs Vega II.

Max saw the VII perform at only ~1/2 that of the Vega II, whereas Barefeats reported the VII actually outperform the Vega II in 2 of their 3 tests.

This seems extremely conflicting.

I’ll have my 7,1 on the 26th, and will be able to test the VII for myself, but I have no way to compare to the Vega II.

 

[jinnyman]

The thing is that AMD is notorious in resolving its graphic driver issues even for Windows. I'd rather stick with what Apple's offering unless cost/price ratio is the issue. Especially the old graphic like Radeon VII (i know it's not that old, but it's discontinued in consumer market), I'd be careful. Even a new graphic like rx7500 has several driver issues. Given Mac OS's driver track record, I'd be really careful especially if you plan to install 3rd party graphics for graphic based rendering.

 

[shuto]

can you snake in external power feeds to drive more GPUs internally, or are you going to start running out of pci lanes so they may as well be in eGPU?

Yeah wonder if you can do the 5,1 hack of using a second power supply for extra card use. Going in via open pcie slots.

how many GPUs can we possibly fit inside those 7 slots? Haha.

The Mac Pro has 64 PCIe lanes so that wouldn’t be a problem, it’s just the power that would.

 

[arock]

I just got my 7,1 and installed the Radeon VII. Also the new Geekbench 5.1.0 came out today. My Metal GB 5 score is 68623, which puts it in 3rd place on the Metal leaderboard only behind the Vega II and Vega II Duo. This is much better than the score Max got (under 46000), but the release notes for GB 5.1.0 say that you should not directly compare 5.0.x scores to 5.1.x scores. The factory 580X card still gets around 45000 on 5.1.0.

Geekbench

www.geekbench.com

 

[chrissomos]

I few thoughts. 1st I think that it really depends on the app, and I would try and borrow a Gpu from a friend and test the software to see if it will take advantage of 2 distinct GPUs in 2 slots. Some software doesn’t even see a duo mpx module as more than 1 GPu. Also, the computer may not boot without an mpx Gpu. Lastly, if you are using a Pro Display XDR and the thunderbolt port on the 580mpx the computer might not like having a different type of Gpu installed. On the page for the Mac Pro it advises to try and not mix different GPUs.

 

[NisaArts]

So we put a 5700XT, Vega 64, and Radeon VII into our 2019 Mac Pro and did a few test. First off, the power cabled do not get blocked by MPX modules (we have a Vega II full size) and with that installed I can still put in 2x Radeon VII's.

I removed the Vega II MPX and installed just the 5700XT but then I can't power my LG 5K (and soon XDR) display so you'll definitely want to order the 580 and keep it installed if you want to power displays from those other TB3 ports.

Lastly, it looks like the Radeon VII is NOT using the same drivers as the Vega II.. The performance is MUCH worst in metal even though it should be very similar, maybe just 6% worst.. I also ran Metal test on the 5700XT and Vega 64. The GPU stuff is towards the end of the video.

Hello Max, I joined recently and watched your video and everyone’s comments. I have the same two questions for you that Radeon VII working in Mac Pro 7’1 but can they be used as parallel and Second question about upgrading CPU. Is there any limitation from Apple for changing the cpu? e.g. can 8 core base model can be changed to 28 cores or if there‘s certain number of cores needed to start with to max out to 28 cores? Appreciate your time and reply. Keep the great working going! Thank you.

 

[kennyman]

I just got my 7,1 and installed the Radeon VII. Also the new Geekbench 5.1.0 came out today. My Metal GB 5 score is 68623, which puts it in 3rd place on the Metal leaderboard only behind the Vega II and Vega II Duo. This is much better than the score Max got (under 46000), but the release notes for GB 5.1.0 say that you should not directly compare 5.0.x scores to 5.1.x scores. The factory 580X card still gets around 45000 on 5.1.0.

Hello - could you please share your experience with the dual Radeon VII setup? I have read here that there is a fan noise when the computer goes to sleep. Does the fan spin when the computer is sleeping? I would really like to know your dual Radeon VII luxmark benchmark as Geekbench scores are inconsistent. Thanks

 

[Z28McCrory]

Hello - could you please share your experience with the dual Radeon VII setup? I have read here that there is a fan noise when the computer goes to sleep. Does the fan spin when the computer is sleeping? I would really like to know your dual Radeon VII luxmark benchmark as Geekbench scores are inconsistent. Thanks

Ive been running dual Radeon VIIs for several months. You can read through my whole experience, including Luxmark results, in this thread:

Its up and running: 2x VII + 580X

My 7,1 arrived a few hours ago. 16 Core/580X/32GB RAM/2TB Since launch day on the 10th, I've been heavily debating on whether I should order with the Vega II, or save some money and add a pair of VIIs instead (and potentially have GPU power approaching a Vega II duo for 1/5th the upgrade...

forums.macrumors.com

Now that a few months have passed, I’ll say I’m overall very happy with the setup. The only downside is the fan issue when sleeping. I’ve simply made it to where my computer can’t go to sleep (instead, the monitors simply shut down when idle), and I shut it down at the end of the day. The performance is phenomenal, and less than 1/5th the cost of buying dual Vega IIs from Apple.

 

[flowrider]

I removed the Vega II MPX and installed just the 5700XT but then I can't power my LG 5K (and soon XDR) display so you'll definitely want to order the 580 and keep it installed if you want to power displays from those other TB3 ports.

Hey Max

I watched your video a couple of times before I bought my NcMP. Anyway, I just picked up on your January post.

You can run an RX5700XT as your only GPU in the 7,1 Mac Pro with a Thunderbolt only Display. It requires a BiDirectional USB C to DisplayPort cable. But, you do lose the boot screen. The loss of the boot screen is something I can't figure out.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/boot-screen.2226289/

Lou

 

[Oval]

Designed for Mac Pro 2019 definitely.

 

[worldburger]

Probably not. You are probably not boing be able to pull power from the MPX bay 1 and put it into a card in MPX bay 2. Even if can also probably not going to get usage of the MPX bay 2 8-pin power feed not to conflict with the second PCI-e slot in Bay 2.

Illustrative is right on Belkin power cable page.

https://www.apple.com/shop/product/HMUJ2ZM/A/belkin-aux-power-cable-kit-for-mac-pro

See how the cables come out and around to the card above. That soaks up space. I know folks have been hand waving about how you'll be able to snake cords thru multiple 90 changes of directions with zero cable bend, but that is probably not true.

That second x16 slot in BAY is good for perhaps a PCI-e SSD card, but a full length , max double wide, relatively high card is probably going to have major problems finding a source to plug into.


Two Radeon VIIs and 'eject' the 580X ? yes that will work. ( but back to not driving the XDR or thunderbolt ..... without some giant, Rube Goldberg kludges ).




No. The 580X can run the XDR just fine off of the default system TBv3 ports. MBP 16" can run XDR. About everything released in 2019 can run the XDR. (the iMac Pro can run it in 5K mode. Not particularly cost effective but illustrative of extent of "minimal" requirements here. )


It will run nicer with an Vega II, but it isn't a minimal requirement.
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Do those project correlate with certain attributes of the projects. For example 8K video transcoding spikes higher usage. If that is a long term growth trend for you workload demographics then will be a bigger deal over time.

Similar issue with size of resolution screen dealing with. ( size and scope/complexity of what is in active view).

There are some apps though than can barely make use of a single GPU (or its VRAM). If that's the primary tool then yeah there isn't much "bang for the buck" in Vega II. But the apps that following closely on the leading edge of Metal there is a substantive difference. Even more so if can shift data over to the VRAM size. ( two Vega II coupled together is 64GB of space. ]

Thanks, this is helpful.

I'm still a bit confused on the XDR. Are there any conditions you can use a VII in a Mac Pro 7,1 with Apple's XDR display outside of the 580X? I.e. would the XDR work with the VII (and the 580X removed) since the TB ports are coming off the MP and not the VII itself?

 

[Oval]

Weird that you may install on Windows 10 either Apple Boot Camp Software Graphics Drivers for 580X or AMD Radeon™ VII Drivers & Support for VII. One conflicts with each over.
Perhaps because of Bootcamp drivers are with "VII like" Vega II driver.

 

[flowrider]

I'm still a bit confused on the XDR. Are there any conditions you can use a VII in a Mac Pro 7,1 with Apple's XDR display outside of the 580X? I.e. would the XDR work with the VII (and the 580X removed) since the TB ports are coming off the MP and not the VII itself?

Read my post #71.

Lou