Really? STEM Students Require a PC?!?

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

Any Thoughts or comments on the Forbes Article A STEM Degree Requires a Real PC see: https://www.forbes.com/sites/tirias...em-degree-requires-a-real-pc/?sh=50a0923378b8

This article states “While these Apple processors and PCs may be optimized for a wide variety of entertainment, productivity, and design applications, they are not optimized for many STEM applications. As I mentioned previously, it is difficult or sometimes impossible to run some STEM applications on x86-based laptops without a discrete GPU. It is even more of a challenge on a Mac because in my experience, the vast majority of STEM-oriented applications are written on and for x86-based PCs.”

I strongly disagree. A SOC Mac is more than capable and in my experience superior. What a STEM student requires is a laptop that they can write and run Python (and possibly R), write and run MatLab (and possibly Mathematica) and spreadsheet with plotting. What a student does NOT need is to be battling an operating system, fighting with configuration management and constantly worrying about viruses, malware and ransomware. And a battery that last longer than 40 minutes, is really useful too.

Seems like the article’s authors [Falsely] believes student need a gaming machine to do STEM course work.

Any other thoughts?

The majority of engineering software is only available on Windows so they're right. Not only that but the software that is available on Apple Silicon due to the limitations of Metal and lack of GPU acceleration making CAD models on macOS is a lot slower. Not to mention since macOS lacks VR support (which a lot of designers have started using XR headsets to design and test models in real time) that slows things down a lot

I love macOS too. It's my favorite OS. But software limitations (some of which Apple caused) really limits it's use with the bulk of STEM fields. Also doesn't help Apple's anti-Right to Repair shenanigans also caused a lot of engineers to ditch them since they like to fix their own machines.

For more on that here's a video from an actual engineering student:

 

[maflynn]

I strongly disagree.

You may strongly disagree but if the software is PC only and it sounds like much of the software is, then you're gonna need a pc.

Besides, why get upset over someone else's requirements that don't impact you?

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

You may strongly disagree but if the software is PC only and it sounds like much of the software is, then you're gonna need a pc.

Besides, why get upset over someone else's requirements that don't impact you?

It does bring up a good point it's shocking that AutoCAD and other design software isn't on macOS.

 

[maflynn]

It does bring up a good point it's shocking that AutoCAD and other design software isn't on macOS.

I work in IT, and there's a ton of software, that is windows only. I'm not saying one platform is better then the other, just pointing out that we live within the requirements of the software we use

 

[dukebound85]

In a STEM degree you do more than just programming. What about mechanical/PCB/FPGA hardware design?

lol what about it?

Chances are
- students won't have licenses for use on personal machines
- software can't run on a mac
- the university has computer labs to do any intensive software.

I would argue you could get by fine with a raspberry pi for university needs

 

[maflynn]

students won't have licenses for use on personal machines

Its been like a millennium since I've been in college but when I went, a lot of the required applications were available for install. Some had to be purchased if you wanted to use them - Adobe for instance but a lot others were available.

 

[Pet3rK]

Its been like a millennium since I've been in college but when I went, a lot of the required applications were available for install. Some had to be purchased if you wanted to use them - Adobe for instance but a lot others were available.

Depends. My university isn't that rich so we are allowed to pirate a certain software. And this is a uni with an iMac Pros(likely loaded) have become one of the work machines for research.

 

[Pet3rK]

The majority of engineering software is only available on Windows so they're right. Not only that but the software that is available on Apple Silicon due to the limitations of Metal and lack of GPU acceleration making CAD models on macOS is a lot slower. Not to mention since macOS lacks VR support (which a lot of designers have started using XR headsets to design and test models in real time) that slows things down a lot

I love macOS too. It's my favorite OS. But software limitations (some of which Apple caused) really limits it's use with the bulk of STEM fields. Also doesn't help Apple's anti-Right to Repair shenanigans also caused a lot of engineers to ditch them since they like to fix their own machines.

For more on that here's a video from an actual engineering student:

That doesn't apply wholly.

I can make a whole video about why macOS is a great computer for science(I am studying Astronomy, Astrophysics, and Meteorological Science) while trashing the Windows system. I won't since I am an advocate for cross-platform(some of the software we will use have only been tested with Mac and Linux machines) but sometimes, I encounter people that made me think and resent having such a noble view.

 

[maflynn]

Depends. My university isn't that rich so we are allowed to pirate a certain software

Wow, that's crazy.

I went to Northeastern University. At the time 1980s it was more of a working class college where they had a robust night school, and work study programs for students. I think in the 1990s they decided they wanted to compete against Boston University and went on a spending spree, building huge new labs, school buildings, etc. Its a beautiful campus and much more prestigious now then when I went

 

[Pet3rK]

Wow, that's crazy.

I went to Northeastern University. At the time 1980s it was more of a working class college where they had a robust night school, and work study programs for students. I think in the 1990s they decided they wanted to compete against Boston University and when on a spending spree, building huge new labs, school buildings, etc. Its a beautiful campus and much more prestigious now then when I went

Yeah, I laugh and scream inside when I heard my professor allowing such things.

 

[maflynn]

Yeah, I laugh and scream inside when I heard my professor allowing such things.

wow

Back on the topic, my daughter is a senior in HS, and she's considering STEM, I've been expecting to buy a MacBook and I do think that's what we'll be buying but its interesting to see that this may not be the case.

I prefer Windows machines for a variety of reasons, but I think the MBP would be such a better laptop for her, I hope the PC isn't a requirement for her. Otherwise, I may be getting tech support phone calls from her

 

[prime17569]

It is hard to generalize across all STEM students due to the breadth of majors that fall within the bounds of STEM.

For example, engineering students will need a PC due to Windows-specific software such as Autodesk or Solidworks.

However, pre-med students can use a Mac for everything they need to do, even if it involves analysis pipelines written in Python or MATLAB because these are available on multiple platforms.

In addition, CS students who do app development for Apple platforms require a Mac because Xcode is not available on other platforms.

 

[ThunderSkunk]

When I went to college back in the 90s no one even had their own portable computer, we all just used the lab even if it meant pulling all-nighters in there. 25 years later, teaching at a state uni, I was somewhat surprised to see a modern laptop on the requirement list for each student, not because even a little laptop can handle it, but because we still have a computer lab with extremely powerful workstations which students almost never use, becayse they were supposed to blow a semesters student loans on a laptop which will be underpowered and worthless by the time they’re seniors.

 

[Xiao_Xi]

It is hard to generalize across all STEM students due to the breadth of majors that fall within the bounds of STEM.

While macOS is a safer bet for programming, I think Windows is a safer bet it you need commercial software. It's a shame that compatibility with different operating systems varies from app to app.

 

[dukebound85]

When I went to college back in the 90s no one even has their own portable computer, we all just used the lab even if it meant pulling all-nighters in there. 25 years later, teaching at a state uni, I was somewhat surprised to see a modern laptop on the requirement list for each student, not because even a little laptop can handle it, but because we still have a computer lab with extremely powerful workstations which students almost never use, becayse they were supposed to blow a semesters student loans on a laptop which will be underpowered and worthless by the time they’re seniors.

Same thoughts here.

No college kid needs a top of line mbp that costs 3k

 

[ThunderSkunk]

…example, engineering students will need a PC due to Windows-specific software such as Autodesk or Solidworks.

I teach an industrial design class (the missing A in Americas STEM), where we push the kids boundaries, and even of what’s possible in cad. Some kids bring in their gaming laptops, but a few every semester bring an intel mac. The popular 2015 15 retina is about as old as one can go running Adesk and Solidworks, which require a gig of vram to install. I help out with the i9 2019s, which require a cooling mod & fan base to not start the place on fire, but those are generally the most powerful laptops i see from anyone. But yeah, NuMacs are out.

 

[ThunderSkunk]

Same thoughts here. No college kid needs a top of line mbp that costs 3k

I think half the expectation comes from their peers, but there are plenty of indifferent/contemptuous professors who further that ridiculousness as well. On the other hand, we have the chair of the architecture dept taking it upon himself to remove the cad classes completely, and tell 4 years of students that computers have nothing to do with architecture, they can learn that on their own time if their employer wants them to, and that architecture is all about selling people colored pencil renderings of FLW prairie & usonian designs from a hundred years ago. The approach here seems to be a total crapshoot not tied to reality at all.

 

[Pet3rK]

This is a very field-specific issue. As I already mentioned, in my and adjacent areas (physics, mathematics, astronomy), Macs outnumber PCs. This is largely because macOS strikes a nice balance between commercial support (like Windows) and open software designed for Unix-like systems (like Linux et al.).

That's one of the reasons the profs here got iMac Pros. I've seen them use iMac Pros and the tb MacBook Pros for their work and research while remaining Windows laptops in their office is relegated to administrative task and for simple presentations.

 

[BenGoren]

Put it this way … I’m in my final semester of an M.S. Statistics degree at ASU. I’m doing an independent research project, working with an outside lab that does GC-MS chemical analysis. The instrument runs on Windows legacy software … and one of my biggest challenges in the project, no joke, has been in finding a Windows environment I can use to run the software. For example, I could get a loaner laptop from the school, but only Linux. (I wound up going with an Azure VM … which has had no end of its own challenges.)

Windows certainly exists on campus, but, at least amongst mathematicians and statisticians, it’s a veeeeeery distant third behind MacOS and Linux.

Oh — and all the high-performance computing on campus (aka, “supercomputers”) where the heavy lifting happens … is 100% Linux.

Maybe over in the engineering side of things there’s more Windows? But I’m in classes with lots of engineers, and Windows laptops are the minority. Mostly iPads, then MacBooks, then Windows.

And a footnote … yesterday’s lecture in Machine Learning / Deep Learning was about setting up a Python environment. For whatever reason, the classroom (in a building typically used for the English department) projection computer was running Windows. The professor clearly knew Windows but, also, clearly, didn’t spend much time on it himself … and he kept tripping over things. Not a problem, to be sure — I’d be surprised if anybody in the class actually needed him to show how to do the setup. And, once he finally had stuff installed, he spent most of his time showing basics about what to do with it, which all went smoothly.

He ended that part of the lecture by assuring us he’d bring his own laptop next time …

b&

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

That doesn't apply wholly.

I can make a whole video about why macOS is a great computer for science(I am studying Astronomy, Astrophysics, and Meteorological Science) while trashing the Windows system. I won't since I am an advocate for cross-platform(some of the software we will use have only been tested with Mac and Linux machines) but sometimes, I encounter people that made me think and resent having such a noble view.

STEM is more than just science. For science yeah a Mac will do you great, after all the first images of a black hole were rendered on a 15 inch Macbook Pro

But STEM is more than just science. Engineering is a big part of STEM, and unfortunately, Mac is lacking when it comes to engineers and designers due to software compatibility issues and the lack of GPU acceleration making jobs take a lot longer.

Here's an example: CLO 3D (I know CLO is a clothing designer program when engineers use AutoDesk but this is for an example of the problems with the lack of GPU Acceleration.) On Windows CLO 3D has GPU Acceleration so models and simulations are a lot faster. On Mac there's no GPU Acceleration so fabric simulation is a lot slower than if it was done on an Nvidia workstation, which you can see a real world example of that below here:

The same is true with CAD models, and in engineering time is money. Those designs need to get made and approved as soon as possible so they can get sent to the machinists to actually build.

 

[klasma]

A SOC Mac is more than capable

They are not saying that a Mac is less capable. They are saying that a lot of STEM software is written for x86. I don’t think that most STEM students would be affected by that, but in some cases it’s probably true.

Personally I’d love to use Apple Silicon, but I just don’t like macOS at all. 😛

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

They are not saying that a Mac is less capable. They are saying that a lot of STEM software is written for x86. I don’t think that most STEM students would be affected by that, but in some cases it’s probably true.

Personally I’d love to use Apple Silicon, but I just don’t like macOS at all. 😛

Keeping track of Asahi Linux's development? Could give Asahi a try once it reaches beta.

 

[NT1440]

Undergraduate work can be done with the power of a Chromebook (not that I’d advise anyone to use that garbage) in this day and age. IF in your senior years you’re doing stuff more demanding it’s done on the university servers.

The notion that specs for *undergraduate* courses require heavy lifting is just nonsense and has been for the better part of two decades.

 

[jonblatho]

B.S. in Meteorology with a math minor here, did just fine without a Windows machine — but anything we did was web-based or Python/MATLAB/R.

That was fully before the Apple silicon transition, but having since gone through the transition myself I highly doubt it would have been problematic at all.

 

[Jumpthesnark]

It is hard to generalize across all STEM students due to the breadth of majors that fall within the bounds of STEM.

This exactly. Saying you need a PC for STEM studies is painting with too large a brush. Different disciplines and different classes at different schools will have different requirements. And as has been mentioned here already, most universities have computer labs anyway.

Also thanks to those who have mentioned the pro-Intel slant that this marketing guy has been writing for years. Useful context for the piece.