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Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,170
8,132
10"/11" is no match for mba 13.3"

we must talk about similary sized and specced devices
If a user only has around $600 though, they’re still short of an mba. Even if the screen on an iPad is no match, having a screen one can afford is still roughly 100% better than having no screen at all.

BTW are your numbers right? They indicate the iPad Pro is quite inexpensive.
 
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Love-hate 🍏 relationship

macrumors 68040
Sep 19, 2021
3,006
3,175
If a user only has around $600 though, they’re still short of an mba. Even if the screen on an iPad is no match, having a screen one can afford is still roughly 100% better than having no screen at all.

BTW are your numbers right? They indicate the iPad Pro is quite inexpensive.
I must admit I didn’t check what the exact discussion was hahaha

And yeah those numbers are correct

Inexpensive ? 2177€ for a device that’s still bloody limited and can’t allow you to install apps from other sources (hence paying for them) isn’t inexpensive to me
 

Joe Dohn

macrumors 6502a
Jul 6, 2020
836
746
even if you're poor you'll need an ipad , if an artist you are :)

You won't. It's a VERY nice device to draw to, but there are many options that are very good. For example, Huion tablets are very cost-effective while offering good pressure sensitivity. They also SEEM to last long too (I don't have one, so I can't say for sure).

The iPad is king if you want to draw something that looks straight out of traditional media (e.g, a digital drawing that has an extremely natural pencil look to it). But if you buy a Cintiq or a high-level tablet and set things right, you can also achieve very beautiful things.
 

Joe Dohn

macrumors 6502a
Jul 6, 2020
836
746
I'm gonna have to say no. Can't imagine it'd be pleasant writing or drawing on a wobbly/non-sturdy vertical screen.

By the way, the Mac and some apps already do have Apple Pencil support. You just need an iPad and use SideCar.

It's not direct support. And paying $400 to use the iPad as a simple digitizer is not good value.

Like I said, it's amazing to use the iPad for drawing if that's your goal, but what if you want to only use the iPad as a drawing tablet for MacOs / Windows? Not only you're at Apple's mercy to hope they will keep supporting sidecar (or the third-party Windows developer), but also you're paying a very expensive price for what you could have at a much cheaper price.
 

kasakka

macrumors 68020
Oct 25, 2008
2,361
1,060
Wacom has the Cintiq line, which is awesome and allows for drawing on the screen. But it is much more expensive than the iPad.

What Apple seems to have done on purpose is that the Apple Pencil won't draw without a battery, while all Wacom pens are passive, as you probably already know (meaning they don't ever require a battery).

This is another reason why I'm probably moving away from Apple next time. Since you can't remove the battery of the Apple Pencil and it won't draw without a battery, it's designed to eventually fail. And as Apple has shown with the first and the second generation Apple pencil, some Apple Pencil models are only compatible with some tablets. What happens when they decide to discontinue the 1st generation Apple Pencil? Too bad, you can't draw with your iPad anymore, no matter if it is in good condition.

It turns out some people found out you CAN replace the battery if you destroy the case, sold the new battery, and replace the case of the Apple Pencil with a 3D printed one. But it's too much work, and I've only seen a shop in Thailand and another guy in Russia attempting that.

Meanwhile, with Wacom models, we have models that will last for 20+ years. I have myself one of their tablets that is 15+ years old. Yes, it sucks (always has). But it still works flawlessly.
One of the nails to "why I won't buy an iPad Pro again" coffin was that I have no guarantee my Apple Pencil of x generation will work with any future iPad. I have a 2017 iPad Pro and a 1st gen Apple Pencil.

I don't mind the battery too much, I would expect it to last quite long. I mean the 1st gen Pencil is nearly 6 years old now and still works just fine. If it breaks, getting a new one would be relatively cheap as it should not be hard to find a new Pencil for many years.
 
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Joe Dohn

macrumors 6502a
Jul 6, 2020
836
746
I don't mind the battery too much, I would expect it to last quite long. I mean the 1st gen Pencil is nearly 6 years old now and still works just fine. If it breaks, getting a new one would be relatively cheap as it should not be hard to find a new Pencil for many years.

For now it is, but what happens when Apple stops making them?

Any new unused pencils would go into deep discharge, and since swapping the battery is very difficult, you would either be forced to buy a knockoff (without pressure sensitivity, most likely) or to buy a new iPad. Or to send your pencil to Thailand to have its battery replaced (which will be more expensive than buying a new one).
 

Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,170
8,132
I must admit I didn’t check what the exact discussion was hahaha

And yeah those numbers are correct

Inexpensive ? 2177€ for a device that’s still bloody limited and can’t allow you to install apps from other sources (hence paying for them) isn’t inexpensive to me
The numbers you listed are:
iPad Pro 2177 euros
mba m1 12000 euros
mba m2 15000 euros

Which makes it appear that the iPad Pro costs far less than the others?
 

Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,170
8,132
For now it is, but what happens when Apple stops making them?

Any new unused pencils would go into deep discharge, and since swapping the battery is very difficult, you would either be forced to buy a knockoff (without pressure sensitivity, most likely) or to buy a new iPad. Or to send your pencil to Thailand to have its battery replaced (which will be more expensive than buying a new one).
Or, pay Apple $29 to take the pencil and provide another one.
 

Joe Dohn

macrumors 6502a
Jul 6, 2020
836
746
Or, pay Apple $29 to take the pencil and provide another one.
The first problem is that this adds more e-waste for nothing. You're replacing a perfectly good device that only has a faulty battery. Apple could have designed it to make the battery replaceable, but they won't because they want to force you to upgrade.

But never mind that; you missed the part where they make only certain models compatible with certain devices. If you have a device that only works with the first generation Apple Pencil and they stop making it, they will replace it with the second generation Apple Pencil only, which will not work with your tablet. This WILL force you to upgrade.
 

jwahaus

macrumors member
Aug 9, 2022
43
40
I'm gonna have to say no. Can't imagine it'd be pleasant writing or drawing on a wobbly/non-sturdy vertical screen.

By the way, the Mac and some apps already do have Apple Pencil support. You just need an iPad and use SideCar.

For digital artists, they already have specialized tools made for them - digitizers or Wacom tablets (or use the Apple Pencil through SideCar).
I agree concerning writing on a vertical screen. It's better to use a separate pen tablet with a laptop or desktop computer like a Wacom tablet.

What I would really like to see is the option to run Mac OS on the iPad. I much prefer Mac OS to iOS. An iPad running Mac OS would be a much more useful computer.

I've run Photoshop as a sidecar monitor on my iPad and it does fully support the Apple pencil as a stylus with pressure and tilt controls. I prefer to use the Watcom tablet directly with the Mac computer, however, since you get the full resolution of your desktop display. The 12" display of the iPad is kind of limiting.
 

TechnoMonk

macrumors 68000
Oct 15, 2022
1,867
2,664
No. I have iPad Pro which has been key cog in my work flow. I tried windows touchscreen laptops, terrible experience. Keep Mac OS on macs.
 

MacProFCP

Contributor
Jun 14, 2007
1,222
2,954
Michigan
In light of Mark Gurman's recent report that Apple was working on developing touchscreen Macs (which we previously thought was never going to happen), would it be too much to ask if Macs got Apple Pencil support? If I bought a MacBook Pro with Apple Pencil support and the ability to run Procreate, I'd sell my iPad Pro. What's the point of iPads anymore? No matter how high end the hardware is, the iPad is always going to be a bad computer and it's Apple's fault because they keep neglecting the software, especially considering that the iPad is now no longer less expensive than a decently specced laptop. Besides, most Macs have much more screen real estate than an iPad, so you have more freedom to draw a masterpiece. Even if the iPad had decent software, the software upgrade would nuke the iPad's already terrible battery life to the point of being unusable when unplugged, so the battery life of recent MacBooks would be a huge advantage anyways. So why not just give the MacBook Pro Apple Pencil support (and maybe Face ID if you can figure out how to fit the components into such a thin display lid) and call it a day?

Apple, it seems, continues to ensure the iPad remains a secondary device. I am not sure I disagree. I have many iPads for specific use scenarios and they work great in that arena. I’m not sure how happy I’d be to see the iPad as a netbook. I remember netbooks from the early 2000s and they were too small to be an effective computer and too large to be a tablet. Then, Steve introduced the iPad and they all disappeared from the market.

I know I’ll get some heat for this, but I doubt I’ll ever see the iPad as a primary device. Once you add a keyboard, necessary for most work, it’s basically a netbook version of the MBA.

On the other hand, I’d love to see the Apple Pencil brought to the Mac. Not just for drawing, but for ultra fine-tune adjustments.

It is my longstanding belief that technology should be continuously bettered and updated. If some products die, they will be replaced by better ones. You can make the best horse drawn carriage, but it won’t stand a chance next to a beater of a car. Focus on making the best products possible and let creative destruction rein.
 
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Marswarrior462

macrumors regular
Original poster
Sep 4, 2020
238
416
Calgary, AB, Canada
And to get around the vertical touchscreen issue that Steve Jobs cited as a reason not to give Macs touchscreens, why not allow the user to bend the display lid backwards and disable the keyboard to prevent unintentional button presses from ruining their interaction with it? Put some sort of hardware into the display lid that can wirelessly communicate with the processor so it can still function if detached?
 

Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,170
8,132
The first problem is that this adds more e-waste for nothing. You're replacing a perfectly good device that only has a faulty battery. Apple could have designed it to make the battery replaceable, but they won't because they want to force you to upgrade.
Actually this is better. By forcing folks to return the non-functional pencil to Apple, it will be dealt with in the most responsible way. Making something with replaceable batteries mean the masses (which aren’t particularly environmentally conscious) would be buying and throwing away, not recycling, millions of batteries. Until it’s assured that the majority are recycling, giving them less to throw away is ideal.

But never mind that; you missed the part where they make only certain models compatible with certain devices. If you have a device that only works with the first generation Apple Pencil and they stop making it, they will replace it with the second generation Apple Pencil only, which will not work with your tablet. This WILL force you to upgrade.
And you know this… how? If I brought a vintage ADB mouse to the Apple store, they’re not going to replace it with a new wireless mouse! If they don’t have a pencil 1 available, they’re not going to give folks a pencil 2. :) The iPad will likely be obsolete before the pencil (and that’s already true in the case of the iPad Pro).
 

Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,170
8,132
And to get around the vertical touchscreen issue that Steve Jobs cited as a reason not to give Macs touchscreens, why not allow the user to bend the display lid backwards and disable the keyboard to prevent unintentional button presses from ruining their interaction with it? Put some sort of hardware into the display lid that can wirelessly communicate with the processor so it can still function if detached?
It’s likely they’ll just take the iPad hardware and install macOS on it. No messy dual booting or mode changing, they take advantage of what they already have a successful form factor for, and they can even use the same Magic Keyboard for it.
 

Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,170
8,132
It is my longstanding belief that technology should be continuously bettered and updated. If some products die, they will be replaced by better ones. You can make the best horse drawn carriage, but it won’t stand a chance next to a beater of a car. Focus on making the best products possible and let creative destruction rein.
Steve Jobs said something a little like this. He said, “he’d get busy on the next great thing.
 
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Jumpthesnark

macrumors 65816
Apr 24, 2022
1,061
4,573
California
And to get around the vertical touchscreen issue that Steve Jobs cited as a reason not to give Macs touchscreens, why not allow the user to bend the display lid backwards and disable the keyboard to prevent unintentional button presses from ruining their interaction with it? Put some sort of hardware into the display lid that can wirelessly communicate with the processor so it can still function if detached?
Because I'd wager that most laptop users don't need that functionality, and don't want to pay for that functionality and never use it. My laptop screen is fine where it is, attached to the rest of the computer. My keyboard is fine the way it is, without a feature that turns it off.

An iPad Pro, however, seems ripe for getting the ability to run MacOS (or something like it) if enough consumers want it. It already has the features being discussed, otherwise. Whether Apple will want to run anything but iPadOS on an iPad, though... that's a different question.
 

lovehateapple

macrumors 6502a
Oct 15, 2015
607
902
USA
I would love to be able to use my apple pencil on my mac, but not on the vertical screen surface. I would want to be able to use my pencil on my desk or table as a mouse replacement pointer / cursor device, and no tablet necessary. It would need to have a couple of buttons on the side and the tip would probably have to have a laser or sensor coming out of it like my mouse does for scrolling. It would be great for note taking, signing documents, drawing in FreeForm, cutting and pasting, etc. One can dare to dream.
 

lovehateapple

macrumors 6502a
Oct 15, 2015
607
902
USA
I'm gonna have to say no. Can't imagine it'd be pleasant writing or drawing on a wobbly/non-sturdy vertical screen.

By the way, the Mac and some apps already do have Apple Pencil support. You just need an iPad and use SideCar.

For digital artists, they already have specialized tools made for them - digitizers or Wacom tablets (or use the Apple Pencil through SideCar).
I tried using SideCar for this and it didn't work. Maybe I was doing it wrong, but I was able to mirror my mac's screen on my ipad. What I really want is a pencil that can be used as a mouse replacement device, no tablet necessary.
 

MacCheetah3

macrumors 68020
Nov 14, 2003
2,126
1,098
Central MN
and since swapping the battery is very difficult, you would either be forced to buy a knockoff (without pressure sensitivity, most likely) or to buy a new iPad.
Or…. Bring the pencil to an Apple Store or Apple authorized service provider.


$29 (estimated) cost for either generation of the Apple Pencil

I don't mind the battery too much, I would expect it to last quite long. I mean the 1st gen Pencil is nearly 6 years old now and still works just fine. If it breaks, getting a new one would be relatively cheap as it should not be hard to find a new Pencil for many years.
Indeed. Based on battery health longevity expectations (including Apple Watch’s up to 1000 charge cycles up to 80% health) and an estimate of charging on average once per day, the battery should be viable for 5 - 10 years.
 

MacCheetah3

macrumors 68020
Nov 14, 2003
2,126
1,098
Central MN
And to get around the vertical touchscreen issue that Steve Jobs cited as a reason not to give Macs touchscreens, why not allow the user to bend the display lid backwards and disable the keyboard to prevent unintentional button presses from ruining their interaction with it? Put some sort of hardware into the display lid that can wirelessly communicate with the processor so it can still function if detached?
I’ve had an HP Envy x360, which was not at all what I would describe as comfortable in tablet mode. And while it probably isn’t the thinnest and/or lightest 2-in-1 portable/laptop, it’s difficult to imagine any such device being an overall better touch-focused gadget than an iPad (or other conventional tablet).

However, I am not opposed to Pencil support on Apple touchpads/trackpads.
 

Nudelpalm

macrumors newbie
Jan 3, 2022
17
11
Isn’t it easier to just run macOS on an iPad? I mean the only difference is the form factor and OS between an iPad and a MacBook Air/pro.
 

jwahaus

macrumors member
Aug 9, 2022
43
40
I would love to be able to use my apple pencil on my mac, but not on the vertical screen surface. I would want to be able to use my pencil on my desk or table as a mouse replacement pointer / cursor device, and no tablet necessary. It would need to have a couple of buttons on the side and the tip would probably have to have a laser or sensor coming out of it like my mouse does for scrolling. It would be great for note taking, signing documents, drawing in FreeForm, cutting and pasting, etc. One can dare to dream.
The pencil is an absolute (not relative) position device so without a tablet (or screen) there is no reference as to where the pen cursor should be located.
I would be happy if the Apple Pencil just supported the Apple Trackpad for the Mac. Currently the trackpad can't see the pencil and wants my fat fingers on it. :) There are times when the increased precision of a pencil tip work better than a finger.
 
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