Spoilers Star Trek: Picard

[phrehdd]

I look back at my youth where I would watch S.T., TV Batman and reruns of Reeve's Superman and never expected to see incarnations of all of these. Glad Star Trek has become a real piece of our cultural landscape. As for making lists, I don't think I could as I would change it from time to time depending on my mood.

 

[Huntn]

I’m sorry Picard fans, not meaning to offend anyone, but Patrick Stewart should have stayed retired, plus the premise of the story has not grabbed me, there is no foundation to build on, the writing seems like it should be a simple story, but feels disjointed, and about midway though episode 5 with JL’s eye patch, (did anyone call him JL before this?), I threw in the towel on this series. My primary hint? I just did not care about these characters and the primary reason is because I don’t find old Picard interesting, even with all the acknowledging that he is a old guy, he‘s just a caricature of his former self. I’m not happy to say this. ?

They had some interesting stuff, Borg reclamation, for example, Romulan assassins and moles in Star Fleet, or JL having quit Star Fleet, and being picked on in an interview, but it just appears and as interesting as it should have been, it was just “eh”. Why? I can’t really say.

...back to Discovery Season 2, fingers crossed. I quit it halfway through last time too.. ?

 

[MisterSavage]

I’m sorry Picard fans, not meaning to offend anyone

People are allowed to like different things! No worries.

 

[turbineseaplane]

(did anyone call him JL before this?)

No - and it's a writing abomination.

It made me want to scream at the screen every time Rafi (sp?) did that.
Just 110% cringe worthy every time.
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I don’t find old Picard interesting, even with all the acknowledging that he is a old guy, he‘s just a caricature of his former self.

This is so true and it's really sad to see.

It's no fault of his -- we all get old - but it's just a bummer to watch and really hard to enjoy (for me) honestly.

 

[Huntn]

No - and it's a writing abomination.

It made me want to scream at the screen every time Rafi (sp?) did that.
Just 110% cringe worthy every time.
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This is so true and it's really sad to see.

It's no fault of his -- we all get old - but it's just a bummer to watch and really hard to enjoy (for me) honestly.

I’m really not trying to be mean, but I better liked the old Picard in All Good Things (the STNG series final). Jean-Luc just rolls off the tongue so nicely. JL almost sounds insulting.

 

[xraydoc]

I’m really not trying to be mean, but I better liked the old Picard in All Good Things (the STNG series final). Jean-Luc just rolls off the tongue so nicely. JL almost sounds insulting.

I actually don't mind Raffi calling him "JL". Shows that she has a different relationship with him than, say, Riker or Troi (who both still called him Jean-Luc) have with him, and that a lot has happened between the time Riker left for his command at the end of Nemesis and the beginning of ST-P (not just Picard sitting in an office at Starfleet Command).

Yes, it's the same number of syllables as some have pointed out, but I see it as a certain kind of informality that Raffi has with him. And that suits her character. Even if she's the only one to call him that.

 

[kingtj]

Yeah... Now that I've watched the whole first season (and I hope most of you have too, so it's ok to talk spoilers)?

I'd say if I had to grade the Picard series, I'd give it a solid "C". It's FAR from a failed attempt at making entertaining sci-fi. But there's no way it gets an "A" rating either with some of the illogical events and questionable tech in it.

The ending bothered me too, simply because I felt like everything was written intending Picard would die in the end. That would have been a very powerful ending, and made this series pretty significant as the "last word" on his fate. But instead, it appeared they realized they got green-lit to produce a season 2 at the last minute, and had to come up with an alternate ending. It was pretty cool the way they let Data end his virtual existence, so I think it did justice to his character at least. But we only got that as kind of a "trade" for having to accept that Picard's brain abnormality that EVERYONE had a foregone conclusion was an un-treatable death sentence was fixed right up by the synth colony.

I found that weird "repair tool" to be a bit much, too. "Just imagine what the component is like when it's working right, and it'll repair it for you just by using your imagination!" Star Trek was always a step above a lot of other sci-fi because they made the effort for all of their technology to feel at least scientifically plausible. I mean, you could poke holes in things like actually having a reactor on board the ship that could generate the kind of power levels needed to make a warp drive function. But we don't know enough about our universe to say it's impossible for something like their dilithium crystals to exist. They had rational explanations for things like the teleporters and replicators and how they worked. There's ZERO to explain this "magic gadget" that you just hold in your hand and imagine your broken stuff is fixed to repair it!

 

[turbineseaplane]

I found that weird "repair tool" to be a bit much, too. "Just imagine what the component is like when it's working right, and it'll repair it for you just by using your imagination!"

Thank you for mentioning this. I flat out had to turn my brain off during this scene.

The writers can't seem to figure out what world they want to be in.

Are we hyper advanced holographic input with tools that just "do the repair you are thinking of" land?
Or are we "human brain disease stuff still bogs us down" and smoking stogies and drinking at every opportunity?

Are we still in a universe where ships are a precious commodity that take some effort to design and construct, as naval vessels do? It doesn't seem like it.

Remember all that time it took at Utopia Planitia to build ships? No longer..
You just pop one design in the microwave replicator ... or maybe just "think about having more ships" and poof...

Out they come by the thousand.

ALL of those ships, Romulan & Federation, just show up, and zap in all at once... and they all look the same... just boom --...in & out.

I'm sorry - some of this is just ridiculous.

I don't know - I'm just rambling - I'm just lost with some of the writing choices.
Way too much of it makes no sense or is just silly..

Really? This is Star Trek now?
I'm physically shaking my head as I'm typing actually..

 

[xraydoc]

That would have been a very powerful ending, and made this series pretty significant as the "last word" on his fate. But instead, it appeared they realized they got green-lit to produce a season 2 at the last minute, and had to come up with an alternate ending.

The second season was actually approved fairly early in the process from what I've read.
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Thank you for mentioning this. I flat out had to turn my brain off during this scene.

They writers can't seem to figure out what world they want to be in.

Are we hyper advanced holographic input with tools that just "do the repair you are thinking of" land?
Or are we "human brain disease stuff still bogs us down" and smoking stogies and drinking at every opportunity?

Are we still in a universe where ships are a precious commodity that take some effort to design and construct, as naval vessels do? It doesn't seem like it.

Remember all that time it took at Utopia Planitia to build ships? No longer..
You just pop one design in the microwave replicator ... or maybe just "think about having more ships" and poof...

Out they come by the thousand.

ALL of those ships, Romulan & Federation, just show up, and zap in all at once... and they all look the same... just boom --...in & out.

I'm sorry - some of this is just ridiculous.

I don't know - I'm just rambling - I'm just lost with some of the writing choices.
Way too much of it makes no sense or is just silly..

Really? This is Star Trek now?
I'm physically shaking my head as I'm typing actually..

Maybe Geordi La Forge came up with replicators big enough to produce starships?

 

[hvfsl]

Thank you for mentioning this. I flat out had to turn my brain off during this scene.

They writers can't seem to figure out what world they want to be in.

Are we hyper advanced holographic input with tools that just "do the repair you are thinking of" land?
Or are we "human brain disease stuff still bogs us down" and smoking stogies and drinking at every opportunity?

Are we still in a universe where ships are a precious commodity that take some effort to design and construct, as naval vessels do? It doesn't seem like it.

Remember all that time it took at Utopia Planitia to build ships? No longer..
You just pop one design in the microwave replicator ... or maybe just "think about having more ships" and poof...

Out they come by the thousand.

ALL of those ships, Romulan & Federation, just show up, and zap in all at once... and they all look the same... just boom --...in & out.

I'm sorry - some of this is just ridiculous.

I don't know - I'm just rambling - I'm just lost with some of the writing choices.
Way too much of it makes no sense or is just silly..

Really? This is Star Trek now?
I'm physically shaking my head as I'm typing actually..

I think you are just trying to fault now They did say the synths are generations ahead of the federation, besides it is just a replicator you control with your mind. I don't see how that is such a big leap based on the other tech we have seen in Star Trek (or even tech we have today TBH). Plus replicators were always said to be used in the construction of large buildings/ships etc. In DS9 this was talked about on a few occasions (industrial replicators)

 

[BigMcGuire]

I take @turbineseaplane 's side here. While I respect those who like Picard - I found it difficult to watch. I grew up watching TNG every night, Data was my childhood hero. After TNG, my dad and I would stay up till midnight and watch TOS episodes after Cheers and Hunter. I remember Star Trek reruns all day Saturday.

When I got older I read hundreds of Star Trek books. DS9 was really good. I watched Voyager live on UPN 13.

One of my favorite books has to do with the science behind Star Trek. Star Trek Science Logs by Andre Bormanis. https://www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-Science-Andre-Bormanis/dp/0671009974

I never got behind Enterprise - watched 3-4 episodes of the first season and it felt more like a soap than Star Trek but don't discount it - saving it for a rainy day especially later episodes. I love the actor who plays Captain Archer.

Discovery was impossible to watch for me as a "trekkie" because it broke so many laws of what I held to be true the Star Trek Universe.
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The above is just the background for my opinion:

Picard had a few great scenes but it felt like whoever wrote it didn't give a damn about Star Trek overall. It had the negativity, hostile unprofessional action sequences like Discovery. While Picard had some Star Trek flavoring, it sure didn't feel like Star Trek. @turbineseaplane hits on most of the points very well.

I don't hate Picard. But it sure doesn't feel like Star Trek. I've recommended it to family but I don't like it myself. Kill Data... AGAIN when they could have given him another body?! ... Why?! Nemesis was hard enough.

I for one really like First Contact.


Pretty stoked to read all the Star Trek conversation in this thread - we're all Trekkies and it's fun to see Star Trek being discussed again. I don't hate on Discovery or Picard. I much prefer TNG, DS9, VOY. Give me Data, Geordi, O'Brien, Worf, Riker, Quark, Dukat, Garak, Rom, Tom, The Doctor, Kim, .....

Have a good day all to all my fellow Trekkies.

 

[hvfsl]

I take @turbineseaplane 's side here. While I respect those who like Picard - I found it difficult to watch. I grew up watching TNG every night, Data was my childhood hero. After TNG, my dad and I would stay up till midnight and watch TOS episodes after Cheers and Hunter. I remember Star Trek reruns all day Saturday.

When I got older I read hundreds of Star Trek books. DS9 was really good. I watched Voyager live on UPN 13.

One of my favorite books has to do with the science behind Star Trek. Star Trek Science Logs by Andre Bormanis. https://www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-Science-Andre-Bormanis/dp/0671009974

I never got behind Enterprise - watched 3-4 episodes of the first season and it felt more like a soap than Star Trek but don't discount it - saving it for a rainy day especially later episodes. I love the actor who plays Captain Archer.

Discovery was impossible to watch for me as a "trekkie" because it broke so many laws of what I held to be true the Star Trek Universe.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The above is just the background for my opinion:

Picard had a few great scenes but it felt like whoever wrote it didn't give a damn about Star Trek overall. It had the negativity, hostile unprofessional action sequences like Discovery. While Picard had some Star Trek flavoring, it sure didn't feel like Star Trek. @turbineseaplane hits on most of the points very well.

I don't hate Picard. But it sure doesn't feel like Star Trek. I've recommended it to family but I don't like it myself. Kill Data... AGAIN when they could have given him another body?! ... Why?! Nemesis was hard enough.

I for one really like First Contact.


Pretty stoked to read all the Star Trek conversation in this thread - we're all Trekkies and it's fun to see Star Trek being discussed again. I don't hate on Discovery or Picard. I much prefer TNG, DS9, VOY. Give me Data, Geordi, O'Brien, Worf, Riker, Quark, Dukat, Garak, Rom, Tom, The Doctor, Kim, .....

Have a good day all to all my fellow Trekkies.

I personally didn't care for the first 2 seasons of Enterprise myself, when I rewatched the series on Netflix I probably only watched about 6 episodes of the first 2 seasons in total. But I would recommend season 4 to anyone that hasn't seen it. One of the best seasons of any Star Trek show IMO.

 

[MisterSavage]

I personally didn't care for the first 2 seasons of Enterprise myself, when I rewatched the series on Netflix I probably only watched about 6 episodes of the first 2 seasons in total. But I would recommend season 4 to anyone that hasn't seen it. One of the best seasons of any Star Trek show IMO.

It's so frustrating that just when Enterprise was starting to get its footing they pulled the rug out from under them and cancelled it. I hated the finale of that show so much.

 

[BigMcGuire]

I personally didn't care for the first 2 seasons of Enterprise myself, when I rewatched the series on Netflix I probably only watched about 6 episodes of the first 2 seasons in total. But I would recommend season 4 to anyone that hasn't seen it. One of the best seasons of any Star Trek show IMO.

When I saw a picture of Jonathan Frakes on the set of Enterprise directing an episode, I knew it was worth watching. Just never got around to it.

My wife and I JUST watched TOS last year and we're on Season 2 of TNG this year. We'll get to Enterprise eventually. (We watched Picard together).

 

[phrehdd]

I’m sorry Picard fans, not meaning to offend anyone, but Patrick Stewart should have stayed retired, plus the premise of the story has not grabbed me, there is no foundation to build on, the writing seems like it should be a simple story, but feels disjointed, and about midway though episode 5 with JL’s eye patch, (did anyone call him JL before this?), I threw in the towel on this series. My primary hint? I just did not care about these characters and the primary reason is because I don’t find old Picard interesting, even with all the acknowledging that he is a old guy, he‘s just a caricature of his former self. I’m not happy to say this. ?

They had some interesting stuff, Borg reclamation, for example, Romulan assassins and moles in Star Fleet, or JL having quit Star Fleet, and being picked on in an interview, but it just appears and as interesting as it should have been, it was just “eh”. Why? I can’t really say.

...back to Discovery Season 2, fingers crossed. I quit it halfway through last time too.. ?

I admit that I have watched all S.T. shows including S.T.N.G. and really didn't like Picard or nor William Riker characters. However, I do find the show Picard interesting as it is a bit more gritty. Having a character that he knew (Picard) that existed after STNG calling him JL feels a bit off but its part of a story that we are not told other than some exposition. I think that while fun to tie in 7of9 and other characters they sadly seem to have arrived later in their lives in positions that based on their original shows, unlikely. It is fun to watch the show unfold and the basic premise being a very very reused notion of robotic life vs biological with the former having the edge at some level and of course the notion of compassion and humanity. I'll simply say this show is much better than I expected but I prefer Discovery as being a bit more interesting and I know many dislike the show. To each their own.

 

[b0fh666]

jeri still hot AF. the rest... meh.

 

[Huntn]

I admit that I have watched all S.T. shows including S.T.N.G. and really didn't like Picard or nor William Riker characters. However, I do find the show Picard interesting as it is a bit more gritty. Having a character that he knew (Picard) that existed after STNG calling him JL feels a bit off but its part of a story that we are not told other than some exposition. I think that while fun to tie in 7of9 and other characters they sadly seem to have arrived later in their lives in positions that based on their original shows, unlikely. It is fun to watch the show unfold and the basic premise being a very very reused notion of robotic life vs biological with the former having the edge at some level and of course the notion of compassion and humanity. I'll simply say this show is much better than I expected but I prefer Discovery as being a bit more interesting and I know many dislike the show. To each their own.

I agree to each his own.
A couple days ago, I watched X-Men United which is hard to believe it came out 17 years ago, and Patrick Stewart still has his edge. And I have seen elderly actors who have done excellent jobs such as Edward G.Robinson in Soylent Green or Maggie Smith in Downton Abbey, but Patrick Stewart’s performance in Picard is a bit to geriatric for me making it harder to invest myself in the story.

 

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

I agree to each his own.
... Patrick Stewart’s performance in Picard is a bit to geriatric for me making it harder to invest myself in the story.

Patrick Stewart was very clear about not playing Picard in the same way as he had done on TNG. It had to change to get him to do the project.

Iconic roles like Picard, Kirk or Luke Skywalker can be a blessing and a curse for the actors. If audiences really like characters, it can be hard for them to see the actors in any other roles. Stewart has often spoken of directors asking him "why do I want Captain Picard in my movie? Patrick Stewart definitely wanted changes for him to reprise the role, and so changes there had to be.

As for his 'geriatricity' (if that is a word), we must be reasonable. The passage of time really must be allowed for. He is now 79 years old (according to Wikipedia). He was aged between 47 and 54 in TNG. To have a less 'geriatric' performance may well have required a change of actor, and I'm sure no-one wants anyone else to play Picard.

Regarding the appearance of Data, I can only agree that it really didn't work. Data was supposed to be ageless. If I recall correctly, there was an episode in TNG where Data's head, or a spare head? was left in a cave for 400 years so that he could collect it on the other side of some kind of time loop. If they could CGI Carrie Fisher for Rogue One, I would like to think they could have done enough to Brent Spiner's appearance to make him seem more like the younger version of himself. Again, if I recall correctly, Brent Spiner has also pointed out that he shouldn't reprise the role of Data because he wouldn't look the same, any more. Others who comment in this thread may know more.

As for the ending. The sudden-appearance-of-lots-of-space-ships-to-help-the-good-guys win is a disappointing recurring method of resolving stories in science fiction, at the moment. It was used somewhat plausibly in Ready Player One (it's in the original book), but unbelievably in Rise of Skywalker, and not particularly credibly here, either.

Re the story arcs, that's just how high investment TV shows are made now. Elsewhere on this site, and others, I've linked that back to the influence of Game of Thrones. The self-contained episode television shows of the 60s to 90s were TV network requirements back then, now multi-episode stories are the current network fashion. That's the reality that writers of TV shows face, and I have no doubt they all aspire to emulate the success of Game of Thrones (or at least it's earlier seasons).

 

[BigMcGuire]

To go from that to Picard isn't very easy for any Trekkie. Well, me anyway.

 

[turbineseaplane]

An interesting exercise for me as a TNG purist is the question:

"Now that I've seen S1 of STP, would I have preferred that the TNG cast & story had stayed where it ended/left off and STP hadn't been made as is"?

Oof.. It's a really tough question for me.

I guess "no" because it's fun to see the familiar faces again...but it's just barely into the "yes" territory for me.

STP is so fresh in our minds and it's fun to see old faces, no matter how distorted the storyline, that I think it's giving me false recency bias towards the concept of having STP be a thing..

In other words - Honestly speaking, there wasn't a single episode of STP that I could see myself watching again 5, 10 or 20 years from now -- whereas I watch TNG all the time randomly.

For instance - map the TNG movies onto this same question..

Wouldn't most of us "un-do" things like Insurrection and Nemesis?
(I know I would - I don't ever watch those - just terrible work in my opinion)

Similar to STP - Insurrection & Nemesis were "fun at the time" because they were new and it was fun to see a new adventure with our friends from TNG -- but over time, it's become clear what hot garbage those were and thus they are relegated to the garbage bin, at least for me.

I think STP is in that exact same camp for me. It has some fun elements at the moment (seeing old faces again), but I think it will age about as poorly as the bad TNG movies.

 

[kingtj]

I'm admittedly less of a "Trekkie" than some of you. I never even watched more than part of a random episode of Enterprise OR Discovery, and I never really read any of the Trek books out there.

But I did watch every episode of TNG at one point or another, and I think almost all the original Star Trek episodes, if not every one, plus quite a few DS9 episodes.

That being said? I didn't think the warping all those ships in was the greatest plot twist or idea... but it wasn't the horrible, impossible idea some people say it is, either. The Romulans had been trying to track the synths down for this whole time, convinced if they failed at finding and eliminating them, they would be annihilated by them. So heck yeah -- they'd send a large fleet out there! And I don't think it's a huge stretch that Starfleet might have seen that amount of Romulan warship firepower was deployed and headed that way, prompting a serious response. It seems like kind of a stretch to believe it was Riker who they allowed to come back out of retirement to handle the mission though. That part is more of your "Hollywood-ed up feel good climax" that you get a lot of in the latest installments of the Star Trek movies they released in theaters. And it's something I don't care for, but which proved really popular with the audience in general. So I feel like, "Ok, whatever. I'll allow it."

I guess I'm not sure why so many people dislike Picard's own performance though? I felt like it was pretty cool he tried to be age-appropriate for the series, and it's very much how I imagined he'd be in his old age based on his character in the TNG era. He's stubborn, a little grouchy, but still a deep thinker about philosophical issues of life -- and wasn't going to turn down the chance to try to do something that mattered when it fell into his lap.

 

[Huntn]

I'm admittedly less of a "Trekkie" than some of you. I never even watched more than part of a random episode of Enterprise OR Discovery, and I never really read any of the Trek books out there.

But I did watch every episode of TNG at one point or another, and I think almost all the original Star Trek episodes, if not every one, plus quite a few DS9 episodes.

That being said? I didn't think the warping all those ships in was the greatest plot twist or idea... but it wasn't the horrible, impossible idea some people say it is, either. The Romulans had been trying to track the synths down for this whole time, convinced if they failed at finding and eliminating them, they would be annihilated by them. So heck yeah -- they'd send a large fleet out there! And I don't think it's a huge stretch that Starfleet might have seen that amount of Romulan warship firepower was deployed and headed that way, prompting a serious response. It seems like kind of a stretch to believe it was Riker who they allowed to come back out of retirement to handle the mission though. That part is more of your "Hollywood-ed up feel good climax" that you get a lot of in the latest installments of the Star Trek movies they released in theaters. And it's something I don't care for, but which proved really popular with the audience in general. So I feel like, "Ok, whatever. I'll allow it."

I guess I'm not sure why so many people dislike Picard's own performance though? I felt like it was pretty cool he tried to be age-appropriate for the series, and it's very much how I imagined he'd be in his old age based on his character in the TNG era. He's stubborn, a little grouchy, but still a deep thinker about philosophical issues of life -- and wasn't going to turn down the chance to try to do something that mattered when it fell into his lap.

For myself, regarding geriatric Picard, the story premise from the start did not grab me, I did not feel it in a positive way, and it could really be I don’t want to see an old Picard, who appeared a bit too feeble to be the center of a story like this, his relationships felt artificial, his acting was way too geriatric for me, this after watching X-Men United, where he still had his onscreen presence.

Also, I disliked how something as significant as a captured Borg cube, was presented in the story and old Data really turned me off. Of note, I did not finish the season and of possible interest, there is no telling about taste because after loving Discovery Season 1, I stopped watching Season 2 about half way though, but on my second try, I’ve decided I like Season 2, although I’ve not finished it yet, almost done watching.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Re: Geriatric Picard

Honestly, I think a producer (or whoever greenlit this all) probably should have seen where Patrick Stewart the human actor is at and nixed the concept before it got going.

I love the man and the character, but Father Time has totally caught him. So many of his speech issues and physical mannerisms remind me of my father in his final years with Alzheimers that progressed.

It sort of "fits" I guess with his character on a decline, although that brain disorder the Picard character has doesn't seem to be one that has a person mentally and physically degrade in the same way.

That comparison aside, for me it is simply not that enjoyable to watch.

They made something because they "could" but I'm not really sure they should have.

The show is "fine", but will vanish into obscurity over time and not really ever compare to TNG itself (or even a TNG movie like First Contact).

 

[MisterSavage]

I love the man and the character, but Father Time has totally caught him. So many of his speech issues and physical mannerisms remind me of my father in his final years with Alzheimers that progressed.

For me it was the complete opposite. I thought he did a wonderful job with acting. The argument he had with the starfleet officer was so intense but he also had really touching scenes with Troi, Soji, and Data.

 

[turbineseaplane]

For me it was the complete opposite. I thought he did a wonderful job with acting. The argument he had with the starfleet officer was so intense but he also had really touching scenes with Troi, Soji, and Data.

Hard to please us all isn't it? lol

Irrespective of my thoughts on Picard the series, I think they should have left him dead and moved on.

The timing and situation were right, particularly with Data going as well (albeit - again)..
I'm not a huge fan of sci-fi constantly doing the "he's dead!" -- wait...an all new miracle! He's back! routine..

It's very "schticky" IMO

Let's have death actually be "death" and mean something for a change...