Other The iPhone 15 2X telephoto scam

[cicalinarrot]

The presentation says they are going to use a portion of the sensor's pixels. so... it's a digital zoom by any definition.
But:
A) They call it "2X Telephoto". Misleading, seems to imply there's a lens that does that. And they just never say it's digital.
B) They say it has "optical-quality". At best, this is a vague almost meaningless marketing claim. At worst... it's just a lie. The number of pixel can stay the same (because they are reducing the resolution of the 1X photos...) but the quality of a portion of the sensor cannot, physically, be the same of an optical lens allowing the whole sensor to be used.
C) Inside the specs, they just say "2x optical zoom in, 2x optical zoom out; 4x optical zoom range".

Point A and B may be considered ambiguous. Still disgusting marketing, clearly trying to trick the customer but with some technical defence. It would already be the dirtiest trick Apple has ever pulled, but it would probably be legal.
But point C is just pure fraud to me. Maybe you can say that your plastic handbag is leather-like or that it feels like leather. But I'm pretty sure you can't just say it's leather in the specs list. I don't care if it feels exactly like leather or even better, it's not leather.

I've already seen many people very happy about what they call the new "optical zoom". The scam seems to be working and I haven't found anybody anywhere pointing this out.
Hope some consumer association does something about this.

 

[skiltrip]

I'm not a photography expert, but I know enough, and watching the presentation, I believed for a moment they figured out a way to put 2x optical zoom on the 15... and I was pretty excited about it being ready to upgrade from my old 6s.

But somehow it didn't make sense to me, and looking into it further, everything you laid out above became clear. I am wondering that in real-world use if it actually may indeed be a good zoom based on it having 48mp to work with in it's cropping methods, but can't be sure.

 

[cicalinarrot]

I'm not a photography expert, but I know enough, and watching the presentation, I believed for a moment they figured out a way to put 2x optical zoom on the 15... and I was pretty excited about it being ready to upgrade from my old 6s.

But somehow it didn't make sense to me, and looking into it further, everything you laid out above became clear. I am wondering that in real-world use if it actually may indeed be a good zoom based on it having 48mp to work with in it's cropping methods, but can't be sure.

Exact same feeling, I was very confused and I went digging inside the specs to find the truth. Found the most explicit lie instead, had to read everything a few times to figure it out. I didn't expect that at all.
And let's be clear, I'm sure it produces better pictures than most 2X phone cameras with a crappy sensor. Doesn't allow Apple to lie.

 

[covertweasel]

Thank you for bringing this to light.
As someone who is considering the regular iphone 15, I wonder if the zoom isn't far off from the pro (non-max). My understanding is that the sensor is 48mp, but at best you are going to get a 24mp photo. When all of the sensor is used, that is 1x, when 24mp of the sensor is used, then we get 2x. Digitally zooming beyond this is where it seems to get murky. If we digitally zoom so that the sensor is working with 12mp, wouldn't that be a zoom of 3x? And if so, isn't that where the iphone 15 pro starts with it's 12mp telephoto? If that is right, are they sort of equivalent? Is apple going to handicap the iphone 15 so that it can't digitally zoom past 2x? Idk, I am confused.

 

[skiltrip]

Thank you for bringing this to light.
As someone who is considering the regular iphone 15, I wonder if the zoom isn't far off from the pro (non-max). My understanding is that the sensor is 48mp, but at best you are going to get a 24mp photo. When all of the sensor is used, that is 1x, when 24mp of the sensor is used, then we get 2x. Digitally zooming beyond this is where it seems to get murky. If we digitally zoom so that the sensor is working with 12mp, wouldn't that be a zoom of 3x? And if so, isn't that where the iphone 15 pro starts with it's 12mp telephoto? If that is right, are they sort of equivalent? Is apple going to handicap the iphone 15 so that it can't digitally zoom past 2x? Idk, I am confused.

Good points there. Either the answer is yes, it's as you layed it out, or it's a "no it's not that simple". Wish I knew which it was! Hopefully someone can answer this and clear it up.

 

[stephen1108]

Unless I’m mistaken, I would imagine it works the same way it does on the 14 Pro line.

The 2x “lens” on the iPhone 14 Pro is surprisingly good

Or, how I learned to stop worrying and love the 2x crop.

www.theverge.com

 

[whitedragon101]

The presentation says they are going to use a portion of the sensor's pixels. so... it's a digital zoom by any definition.
But:
A) They call it "2X Telephoto". Misleading, seems to imply there's a lens that does that. And they just never say it's digital.
B) They say it has "optical-quality". At best, this is a vague almost meaningless marketing claim. At worst... it's just a lie. The number of pixel can stay the same (because they are reducing the resolution of the 1X photos...) but the quality of a portion of the sensor cannot, physically, be the same of an optical lens allowing the whole sensor to be used.
C) Inside the specs, they just say "2x optical zoom in, 2x optical zoom out; 4x optical zoom range".

Point A and B may be considered ambiguous. Still disgusting marketing, clearly trying to trick the customer but with some technical defence. It would already be the dirtiest trick Apple has ever pulled, but it would probably be legal.
But point C is just pure fraud to me. Maybe you can say that your plastic handbag is leather-like or that it feels like leather. But I'm pretty sure you can't just say it's leather in the specs list. I don't care if it feels exactly like leather or even better, it's not leather.

I've already seen many people very happy about what they call the new "optical zoom". The scam seems to be working and I haven't found anybody anywhere pointing this out.
Hope some consumer association does something about this.

It’s actually legit optical. The 48mp sensor is huuuge in its physical area compared with the ultra wide and telephoto sensors.

iPhone 14 Pro
Wide using 12mp pixel binning = 2.44micron pixels
Wide at 48mp = 1.22micron pixels
Telephoto x3 = 1 micron pixels
Ultra wide = 1 micron pixels

And drumroll
Wide 2x crop 12mp = 1.22 micron pixels

So your 2x crop is a real 12mp image with 1 real sensor pixel per pixel in the final image (no digital zoom). And it still has a larger pixel to gather light with than either the telephoto or the ultra wide.

 

[cicalinarrot]

Thank you for bringing this to light.
As someone who is considering the regular iphone 15, I wonder if the zoom isn't far off from the pro (non-max). My understanding is that the sensor is 48mp, but at best you are going to get a 24mp photo. When all of the sensor is used, that is 1x, when 24mp of the sensor is used, then we get 2x. Digitally zooming beyond this is where it seems to get murky. If we digitally zoom so that the sensor is working with 12mp, wouldn't that be a zoom of 3x? And if so, isn't that where the iphone 15 pro starts with it's 12mp telephoto? If that is right, are they sort of equivalent? Is apple going to handicap the iphone 15 so that it can't digitally zoom past 2x? Idk, I am confused.

This is how I understood things:
- it's a 48MP sensor (duh)
- regular photos get to 24MP by taking a 48MP picture (the native sensor's picture), a 12MP picture (same pixels but in groups of four, not clear if it's just the same exact picture just downscaled) and using some algorithm to make a a picture that takes the 12MP picture, upscales it to 24 and adds some details taken from the 48MP picture. The "more light" thing they say is just... wrong.
- the 2X photo uses "native" 24MP, that haven't gone through that downscaling thing. So it uses a portion of the sensors as claimed.

The "legitimacy" of this "optical-like" claim has only one "truth" behind: the 1X picture and the 2X picture have the same resolution. Usually, when you just crop a photo, you get a lower resolution. But not here! ...because they reduced the resolution of the whole-sensor photo to the resolution that the zoomed one can get. I agree that 48MP pictures are basically useless for most users. But I'm pretty sure they are just using that to pull this trick.
Needless to say, the area of the sensor is much more important than the number of pixels in most cases.

 

[drugdoubles]

It is a scam. Well with the pro, the phone would use main camera to chop while it thinks there is not enough light. Basically they bring their pro series chop to the regular iphone 15.

 

[cicalinarrot]

It’s actually legit optical. The 48mp sensor is huuuge in its physical area compared with the ultra wide and telephoto sensors.

iPhone 14 Pro
Wide using 12mp pixel binning = 2.44micron pixels
Wide at 48mp = 1.22micron pixels
Telephoto x3 = 1 micron pixels
Ultra wide = 1 micron pixels

And drumroll
Wide 2x crop 12mp = 1.22 micron pixels

So your 2x crop is a real 12mp image with 1 real sensor pixel per pixel in the final image (no digital zoom). And it still has a larger pixel to gather light with than either the telephoto or the ultra wide.

It's all true. Except for "It’s actually legit optical".
A portion of the sensor is used and not the whole sensor: that's the very definition of a digital zoom.
The 1X picture uses the whole sensor (the number of pixel has nothing to do with this, the area does) and they brag that they can combine 4 pixels together. The 2X picture can only use a smaller portion of the sensor. That's called a digital zoom. Same number of pixel doesn't make it a photo with the same quality.
Again, can this picture better than a dedicated 2X camera with a worse sensor, as you mentioned? Of course. Is that an optical zoom? No. No way. If it was a single camera with an optical zoom, it would mean that you could use the whole 48MP sensor for 2X photos with a dedicated lens. That would surely be better and that's not what happening. But that what the word "optical" they are using actually means.

EDIT: I'll try to articulate further on the definition of "optical" and "digital".
If your zoom depends on a different way you use the light to hit the sensor (important, in comparison with the same phone's 1X, not to other phones), it's optical (basically, using lenses). If you use the same light and ultimately the same picture and process it in a different way, it's digital. Absolutely no grey area about this, it's not like the "nanometer" thing where all companies have a different definition.
That's why they mostly use "optical-quality" and not "optical". But that's also why the "optical" in the specs is 100% a lie.

 

[motrek]

The presentation says they are going to use a portion of the sensor's pixels. so... it's a digital zoom by any definition.
...

No.

Digital zoom means that you interpolate data from sensor pixels to make a bigger image. If you're doing digital zoom, each sensor pixel corresponds to several pixels in the output image.

Using part of a 48MP sensor to produce a 12MP or 24MP image is not digital zoom. If each output pixel corresponds to at least one sensor pixel, then there's no digital zoom.

If anything, using an entire 48MP sensor to produce a 12 or 24MP image should be called... I don't know... "digital shrinkage"? (The technical term is oversampling.)

Apple is absolutely in the right about this. There is no trickery going on.

 

[LeeW]

For this Photo noob and millions like me, it's still a great phone to easily snap amazing photos, few users in the wider user base are going to be upset one way or another

 

[skiltrip]

For this Photo noob and millions like me, it's still a great phone to easily snap amazing photos, few users in the wider user base are going to be upset one way or another

My bottom line is... Will the 15 deliver nice clear shots when my kids are out on the tennis court, or up on the auditorium stage and I'm a ways back and I need to zoom in? If it's yes, I'm in, no matter what they are calling the zoom tech.

 

[john g.]

There was some related conversation about this on the accidental tech podcast last week. Episode number 551. It starts at around 11 minute mark.

Accidental Tech Podcast

Three nerds discussing tech, Apple, programming, and loosely related matters.

atp.fm

 

[cicalinarrot]

No.

Digital zoom means that you interpolate data from sensor pixels to make a bigger image. If you're doing digital zoom, each sensor pixel corresponds to several pixels in the output image.

Using part of a 48MP sensor to produce a 12MP or 24MP image is not digital zoom. If each output pixel corresponds to at least one sensor pixel, then there's no digital zoom.

If anything, using an entire 48MP sensor to produce a 12 or 24MP image should be called... I don't know... "digital shrinkage"? (The technical term is oversampling.)

Apple is absolutely in the right about this. There is no trickery going on.

I'll quote wikipedia, since you don't seem to understand/trust me.
"Digital zoom is a method of decreasing the precise angle of view of a digital photograph or video image. It is accomplished by cropping an image down to an area with the same aspect ratio as the original, and scaling the image up to the dimensions of the original. The camera's optics are not adjusted."
The wikipedia search for "optical zoom" just sends you to "optical zoom lens". Is any lens involved here to get that zoom?

They are cropping the 48MP picture and only using a 24MP area, instead of downscaling the 48MP to 24MP as they do with the 1X. It's done digitally and not optically (they can do both things with the same input), it's a digital zoom, absolutely no doubt about this. Ask any photographer you know.
I'll add this; by their logic, if they reduced the main photo to 4.8MP, they could say they had 10X optical zoom because with their 4.8 little zoomed crops still "each output pixel corresponds to at least one sensor pixel". How convenient! And why not 100X optical zoom with 0.48MP pictures?!
If their definition of "optical" is true, they were the first people in the world to use it that way. Which to me it's like saying "my leather that comes from petrol and not from cows is just leather by my new definition of leather".

Unless I’m mistaken, I would imagine it works the same way it does on the 14 Pro line.

The 2x “lens” on the iPhone 14 Pro is surprisingly good

Or, how I learned to stop worrying and love the 2x crop.

www.theverge.com

Yes but it felt more evident that it wasn't optical because they talked about the 3X real optical camera after that... not sure if they already used "optical" in the specs, think the 14 Pro isn't on their website anymore.

 

[NT1440]

Are they “cropping” in that instance, or is the 24MP a result of the pixel doubling they explained in the Keynote?

A general quote about the *topic* of digital zoom has no bearing on the actual technical implementation on a given device. It’s a generality, not “this is the only way to accomplish X outcome”.

I’d have to review the actual video again, there is definitely cropping *in certain scenarios*, but clarifications are required for each zoom scenario.

 

[cicalinarrot]

Are they “cropping” in that instance, or is the 24MP a result of the pixel doubling they explained in the Keynote?

A general quote about the *topic* of digital zoom has no bearing on the actual technical implementation on a given device. It’s a generality, not “this is the only way to accomplish X outcome”.

I’d have to review the actual video again, there is definitely cropping *in certain scenarios*, but clarifications are required for each zoom scenario.

"Using the middle 12 megapixels of the sensor, we enabled a new 2X telephoto option". They explained no alternative to this and it would require a lens doing something else.
Think they're talking about 12 megapixels over the 24 total of the 1X pictures, coming from a 48MP sensor. They keep the resolution when zooming because... they "cripple" the 1X photo, not because they enhanced the 2X. Except of course from using a good big sensor that makes good pictures even if you zoom them digitally. Good but still mathematically worse than what an optical zoom would get them with the full sensor.

 

[sjperformance]

My bottom line is... Will the 15 deliver nice clear shots when my kids are out on the tennis court, or up on the auditorium stage and I'm a ways back and I need to zoom in? If it's yes, I'm in, no matter what they are calling the zoom tech.

Exactly. If it gives me awesome pics of my son when he playing soccer. My other son when he playing basketball during a game. I'm in.

 

[skiltrip]

Exactly. If it gives me awesome pics of my son when he playing soccer. My other son when he playing basketball during a game. I'm in.

The question for me remains though... will it?!

 

[sjperformance]

The question for me remains though... will it?!

Yes. Probability 99.99 %

 

[NT1440]

"Using the middle 12 megapixels of the sensor, we enabled a new 2X telephoto option". They explained no alternative to this and it would require a lens doing something else.
Think they're talking about 12 megapixels over the 24 total of the 1X pictures, coming from a 48MP sensor. They keep the resolution when zooming because... they "cripple" the 1X photo, not because they enhanced the 2X. Except of course from using a good big sensor that makes good pictures even if you zoom them digitally. Good but still mathematically worse than what an optical zoom would get them with the full sensor.

So for the 2x they’re cropping. For the 1x they’re pixel doubling to collect more light which is why the 1x output is 24MPs vs the full Sensor’s 48?

Did I get that right? Each zoom scenario seems to have different approaches.

 

[Nozuka]

None of them have ever been optical "zoom". Just different cameras with different fixed focal lengths. If you keep switching the prime lens on a traditional camera, you wouldn't call it zooming either. or if you switch to a different camera with a different lens.

But there isn't really a word for that, because back then they didn't know what the future would bring. So they either had to invent something new and no one would understand what it is for, or they just use words that people understand.

The meaning of a word can also change over time, as it has many times before. Adapting to the new reality.

The result of this 2x "crop" isn't exactly what people would expect from a digital zoom either, because the quality is better. If you Zoom on a 14 Pro to a value between 1x and 2x it looks noticeably worse, than if you go to exactly 2x.

In the end it is just words and what matters is if you are happy with the results or not. And it is definitely convenient to have this 2x option.

 

[cicalinarrot]

The question for me remains though... will it?!

I don't just believe it will, I'm also sure this was the best solution for the product. Another camera for the zoom? Less money for the main one, even less to get them with the same sensor (which just doesn't happen) or just a crappier sensor that would have produced worse pictures than this solution.
I'm happy that they did this. I'm mad because they lied. Instead of just using the regular deceiving meaningless marketing tricks such as calling it Pro-Zoom or Amaze-Zoom.

None of them have ever been optical "zoom". Just different cameras with different fixed focal lengths. If you keep switching the prime lens on a traditional camera, you wouldn't call it zooming either. or if you switch to a different camera with a different lens.

But there isn't really a word for that, because back then they didn't know what the future would bring. So they either had to invent something new and no one would understand what it is for, or they just use words that people understand.

The meaning of a word can also change over time, as it has many times before. Adapting to the new reality.

The result of this 2x "crop" isn't exactly what people would expect from a digital zoom either, because the quality is better. If you Zoom on a 14 Pro to a value between 1x and 2x it looks noticeably worse, than if you go to exactly 2x.

In the end it is just words and what matters is if you are happy with the results or not. And it is definitely convenient to have this 2x option.

Words have meanings. Conventional, but still. You can use evocative language, not pure lies.
The Pro cameras do use different lenses to get the zoom. It isn't the optical zoom in the old sense but it surely involved lenses and not just digital processing.
They are pretending that the line between optical and digital is blurred but that's not the case. Again, leather-like stuff is never leather and if I ask you what's made of, you have to admit it's plastic.

 

[sunapple]

I commented before I missed my telephoto lens and that I’m excited to see this solution. Right now I’m zooming with my main 13 lens to get the same effect. That of course produces a less sharp image with the 12MP system. So in fact this 2x feature combined with 48MP would probably be great for me. We’ll have to wait on reviews though.

 

[RedTheReader]

"Digital zoom is a method of decreasing the precise angle of view of a digital photograph or video image. It is accomplished by cropping an image down to an area with the same aspect ratio as the original, and scaling the image up to the dimensions of the original…”

I was with you guys until I read motrek’s post above explaining that the sensor area after the zoom is the same size as the one that was producing 12MP photos in previous years. With this being the case, the part I bolded above doesn’t apply. Now, I’m not sure you can call it optical. But my memory from last year has them explaining what was going on quite clearly in the presentation and mention achieving the quality of an optical zoom, not having one. It was quite clear to me. Now, I don’t know if it was different this year and I’m not trying to condescend to anyone, but I wanted to layout that perhaps manipulation wasn’t the intention.