Other The iPhone 15 2X telephoto scam

[darngooddesign]

For some reason, image attachments don’t seem to work from my phone. Anyway, as I said in my first post, Apple says it’s “optical quality” (fishy) so you may go to specifications to try to understand what the hell it means and find “2x optical zoom in”, which is just completely false. Check it out.

About “most phones don’t have real zoom”, most phones don’t cost >1000€. And when a very expensive phone claims to have an optical zoom, I expect it to be true.

They call it optical quality because it's cropping instead of digitally upsampling; the former provides better results than the latter.

 

[okkibs]

They call it optical quality because it's cropping instead of digitally upsampling; the former provides better results than the latter.

We've been through this again and again, yet OP will keep disagreeing with you. In the end it's semantics discussing whether calling crop optical zoom is "pure fraud". As you said they call it optical zoom to distinguish from digital zoom. Anyone who is still unclear about what it means can read a review to find out there is no separate 2x optics and that it's crop. Apple could add the info that the 2x optical is a crop but then OP probably wouldn't be happy since it still says optical at the beginning. And once you leave that out the average consumer won't understand it anymore, even older people know that digital zoom means worse quality than optical, but they won't know if crop is better or worse than digital or optical.

There isn't even a guarantee that an actual optical zoom with an additional camera and optics would do any better than Apple's crop. I had phones from other brands that had a dedicated 2x zoom lens producing bad photos. I'd rather have the 2x crop from Apple or Google (their 2x works the same way). Would it be nice to have an additional dedicated zoom camera? Sure. Do I want to pay even more money for an even bigger camera module on the back? No. There's the new overpriced S24 Ultra that comes with exactly that, 4 cameras.

 

[darngooddesign]

We've been through this again and again, yet OP will keep disagreeing with you. In the end it's semantics discussing whether calling crop optical zoom is "pure fraud". As you said they call it optical zoom to distinguish from digital zoom. Anyone who is still unclear about what it means can read a review to find out there is no separate 2x optics and that it's crop. Apple could add the info that the 2x optical is a crop but then OP probably wouldn't be happy since it still says optical at the beginning. And once you leave that out the average consumer won't understand it anymore, even older people know that digital zoom means worse quality than optical, but they won't know if crop is better or worse than digital or optical.

There isn't even a guarantee that an actual optical zoom with an additional camera and optics would do any better than Apple's crop. I had phones from other brands that had a dedicated 2x zoom lens producing bad photos. I'd rather have the 2x crop from Apple or Google (their 2x works the same way). Would it be nice to have an additional dedicated zoom camera? Sure. Do I want to pay even more money for an even bigger camera module on the back? No. There's the new overpriced S24 Ultra that comes with exactly that, 4 cameras.

The OP is welcome to incorrectly disagree with me.

I'll take cropped prime lenses over an actual zoom lens because you would need to have a much, much larger zoom module so it didn't lose the brighter max aperture.

 

[cicalinarrot]

The OP is welcome to incorrectly disagree with me.

I'll take cropped prime lenses over an actual zoom lens because you would need to have a much, much larger zoom module so it didn't lose the brighter max aperture.

I’ll stop debating my (apparently) controversial statement “if optics are not involved at all, it can’t be called an optical zoom”. I can just say for the twentieth time that I’m not saying it’s a bad solution and likely better than a separate (usually lame) camera with a different lens.
I came back here because somebody said that Apple doesn’t even call it an optical zoom. They do.

 

[darngooddesign]

I’ll stop debating my (apparently) controversial statement “if optics are not involved at all, it can’t be called an optical zoom”. I can just say for the twentieth time that I’m not saying it’s a bad solution and likely better than a separate (usually lame) camera with a different lens.
I came back here because somebody said that Apple doesn’t even call it an optical zoom. They do.

Disagreement =/= Controversy

So dramatic

 

[motrek]

I’ll stop debating my (apparently) controversial statement “if optics are not involved at all, it can’t be called an optical zoom”. I can just say for the twentieth time that I’m not saying it’s a bad solution and likely better than a separate (usually lame) camera with a different lens.
I came back here because somebody said that Apple doesn’t even call it an optical zoom. They do.

I agree that they call it optical zoom. If you go to the apple.com web page for the 15 Pro, the second pane in the brag bar says "iPhone 15 Pro Max has the longest optical zoom in iPhone ever. Far out."

Under the tech specs for e.g. the 15 Pro, it says:

• 3x optical zoom in, 2x optical zoom out; 6x optical zoom range
• Digital zoom up to 15x

I agree that calling it optical zoom is questionable since none of these phones actually have zoom lenses. But calling such setups "zoom" has become standard practice for cell phones. Apple is just using the de facto standard terminology in the industry; you can't really expect anything else from them.

What they're doing is definitely not digital zoom though. There's no two ways around that. Expecting them to call it digital zoom is absolutely wrong. Maybe "cropping" but not "digital zoom." There's no way you can get from what they're doing to the term "digital zoom."

 

[primarycolors]

As an iPhone 15 user (who is also a fairly serious photographer) I don't mind the "fake" telephoto lens, it looks just fine.
I honestly prefer it because I always know which sensor the phone is using.

 

[martint235]

My 15 Pro Max takes quite good photos of my dog

 

[cicalinarrot]

I agree that they call it optical zoom. If you go to the apple.com web page for the 15 Pro, the second pane in the brag bar says "iPhone 15 Pro Max has the longest optical zoom in iPhone ever. Far out."

Under the tech specs for e.g. the 15 Pro, it says:

• 3x optical zoom in, 2x optical zoom out; 6x optical zoom range
• Digital zoom up to 15x

I agree that calling it optical zoom is questionable since none of these phones actually have zoom lenses. But calling such setups "zoom" has become standard practice for cell phones. Apple is just using the de facto standard terminology in the industry; you can't really expect anything else from them.

What they're doing is definitely not digital zoom though. There's no two ways around that. Expecting them to call it digital zoom is absolutely wrong. Maybe "cropping" but not "digital zoom." There's no way you can get from what they're doing to the term "digital zoom."

Sorry but the industry has been calling that operation a digital zoom forever. Many digital zooms lose resolution, they basically just crop. Which is doing even less than making up some extra pixels to get the same resolution.
See, you say one shouldn't call it a digital zoom. Ok, maybe, but the wrong part about calling it a "digital zoom" is that it's not a zoom, not that it's not digital. Cropping is digital (and surely, 101% safe to say, not optical). You may do it after you took the full res picture, on a PC). But we call it a zoom because... it makes small things look bigger on your phone. And it's digital.
Optical zoom and digital zoom have grey areas. "Zoom" used to be a moving part but we got used to the new meaning of "using a different sensor (that may perform much worse) with a different lens". I'll never get used to cropping=optical zoom.

 

[motrek]

Sorry but the industry has been calling that operation a digital zoom forever.

No. False. The industry calls it cropping, not zooming. "Crop" is not "zoom." They are different words. They mean different things. You can't just start using them interchangeably because you feel like it. This is ridiculous.

Many digital zooms lose resolution, they basically just crop.

False. Digital zoom expands a crop. That's the "zoom" part of digital zoom. If you're not interpolating to increase resolution, where's the "zoom"? It's just a crop.

...
See, you say one shouldn't call it a digital zoom. Ok, maybe, but the wrong part about calling it a "digital zoom" is that it's not a zoom,

Yes, f**king exactly. See? You understand the problem perfectly well, you're just insisting on using incorrect terminology.

 

[lindros2]

The presentation says they are going to use a portion of the sensor's pixels. so... it's a digital zoom by any definition.
But:
A) They call it "2X Telephoto". Misleading, seems to imply there's a lens that does that. And they just never say it's digital.
B) They say it has "optical-quality". At best, this is a vague almost meaningless marketing claim. At worst... it's just a lie. The number of pixel can stay the same (because they are reducing the resolution of the 1X photos...) but the quality of a portion of the sensor cannot, physically, be the same of an optical lens allowing the whole sensor to be used.
C) Inside the specs, they just say "2x optical zoom in, 2x optical zoom out; 4x optical zoom range".

Point A and B may be considered ambiguous. Still disgusting marketing, clearly trying to trick the customer but with some technical defence. It would already be the dirtiest trick Apple has ever pulled, but it would probably be legal.
But point C is just pure fraud to me. Maybe you can say that your plastic handbag is leather-like or that it feels like leather. But I'm pretty sure you can't just say it's leather in the specs list. I don't care if it feels exactly like leather or even better, it's not leather.

I've already seen many people very happy about what they call the new "optical zoom". The scam seems to be working and I haven't found anybody anywhere pointing this out.
Hope some consumer association does something about this.

15 Pro Max: if you put your finger on top of the widest angle lens (below the flash), and play with different zoom lengths, NONE are black/dark. That means - it's not being used as an actual lens. It's simply for depth effect.

14 Pro: Do the same, and use .5x (super wide angle). It will be black (or red i.e. my finger).

 

[Al Rukh]

So what’s the consensus?

I don’t Apple is misleading anyone with the marketing of 15. If you’re a layman and thinks the 2x optical zoom equates to an actual change of focal length to achieve a 2x, then you can believe that and you probably won’t be able to distinguish if you’ve been scammed or not because the output image is pretty good.

If you’re somewhat in the know, you’ll know the 2x is achieved by some sort of software magic. There’s no dedicated telephoto lens. End of.

Apple is not committing any fraud. We are just looking to nitpick every word and technical terms. Apply some common sense.

 

[Al Rukh]

I do have questions:

If I take a 48MP photo and crop it 2x, and compare to the 2x telephoto shot: which one should be better?

Also, if I take a 2x telephoto shot, is the output quality equal to that of a 1x downsampled 24MP/12MP shot?

 

[okkibs]

If you’re a layman and thinks the 2x optical zoom equates to an actual change of focal length to achieve a 2x´

Cropping does change the equivalent focal length. There is no "software magic".

 

[motrek]

Cropping does change the equivalent focal length. There is no "software magic".

If anything, taking these cropped pictures at "2x" is closer to how phone cameras worked a few years ago, with optical sensor pixels corresponding 1:1 to output image pixels.

One could say that the software magic occurs when the phone downsamples the data from the sensor to produce the default "1x" images.

 

[motrek]

Also, if I take a 2x telephoto shot, is the output quality equal to that of a 1x downsampled 24MP/12MP shot?

The downsampled image will have higher quality, because data from several sensor pixels will be used to produce each pixel in the output image. It's simply more data from the sensor.

But the 2x shot will still be "optical" in the sense that each of the pixels in the image corresponds to something that was observed optically by the sensor. As opposed to digital zoom, where pixels are invented out of thin air.

 

[Dirty Mac]

Somewhat to long but interesting read. But, why is it many pro photographers that have used the pro max like it and say it's a great camera? (Not every pro reviewing is being an apple influencer... many are saying just what they truly think) Granted none say it's better than dslr/mirrorless cameras but if it's good enough for pro's it's good enough for me.

 

[motrek]

Somewhat to long but interesting read. But, why is it many pro photographers that have used the pro max like it and say it's a great camera? (Not every pro reviewing is being an apple influencer... many are saying just what they truly think) Granted none say it's better than dslr/mirrorless cameras but if it's good enough for pro's it's good enough for me.

Some people here (one person, anyway) is upset about the terminology Apple has used ("optical zoom" vs. "digital zoom") but I don't think anybody has found fault with the actual performance of the actual camera(s). I'm sure they're great.