Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

Abdichoudxyz

Suspended
May 16, 2023
382
353
I'm a fan of seeing/doing anything that's unique to the region. I live in NYC so I'm no stranger to shows, restaurants, clubs - typical big city 'going out' stuff. So ideally it'd be something I'd only see in London or England - the more unique the better. Also enjoy history, so the RAF Museum is on my list, as are the Churchill War Rooms, and the nerdy part of me would even like to see the Centre for Computing History in Cambridge. ;)
Ok so. Churchill War Rooms is pure tourism. A few maps, some old telephones and stuff, and a fair bit of historical revisionism. Also very expensive. Imperial War Museum in Lambeth is a much better option, if war is your thing. Far more varied and nuanced. Some very thought-provoking displays and exhibs. And entry is free.

Greenwich is a good place to visit, as there's lots of interesting stuff such as the Royal Observatory in Greenwich Park, from where all time is measured. You can go and stand on the GMT line, and have a foot in both hemispheres. The Maritime museum is very interesting for erm, maritime history, and of course London was one of the world's most important ports. You've also got the foot tunnel, Cutty Sark, Royal Navel College and loads of very nice pubs. Overground train, light rail and river boat services connect Greenwich with central London. The Riverbus is fun on a nice day, great views of London from the river. Goes under the iconic Tower Bridge!

Without knowing your specific interests, it's hard to recommend anything really as there's so much to see and do. You can't go wrong in London really. Something for everyone. It's like NYC, but much older and better.
 

JamesMay82

macrumors 65816
Oct 12, 2009
1,261
1,012
Another vote for oxford 👍

I’m quite negative about London as I’m not a fan of cities! Much nicer places to go like the countryside
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
64,163
46,603
In a coffee shop.
Wow, what a story. (Terribly sad he should have been lost in 1943, just after the battle of the Atlantic had pretty much been won, Costal Command were unsung heroes in my book.)
My aunt - she was my mother's oldest sibling - (my mother was the youngest in a large, comfortably off, family - she was away at her posh boarding school during the war and for a few years afterwards when all this took place and only heard about all these things later) outlived her second husband by two decades, dying at an advanced age in early 2000, so I did get the chance to talk to her a bit.

She was very bright and exceptionally attractive, and, after the death of her first husband, as a WAAF officer, had a very interesting war, travelling with the Allies - immediately behind the front lines, up through Italy and into Austria, with the task of arranging and organising officer accommodation in some of the places that had just fallen to the Allies.

Anyway, she told me that training flights were every bit as dangerous - if not more so - as ops, operational flights, (something I have since learned was true) and I seem to remember that she told me that the flight her husband - who was very experienced, and who had been flying for years as a pilot by then, and who had recently been promoted to Flight Lieutenant - was killed on, was a training flight which crashed not far from their base.

One evening (at my request), she took me through her photo album from the war; the handsome husband (whom she loved, and who clearly adored her) frequently featured, (in one photograph, a shot of him and his crew, his eyes are shut - photographers will recognise this with frustration - and he had written on the back, in fountain pen, in a gloriously legible copper-plate hand, (and the smile with which he must have written those words comes across clearly, decades - almost a century - later,) "Always thinking of thee, apparently. The camera does not lie, you know. Anyway, it is a nice shot of the crate", and it was, the four engined plane framing the background of the photograph).

She went through that album, with a brisk, but brittle, humour, shadowed by an under-lying sadness, offering comments on some of those images of RAF officers, taken from decades earlier, captured by the camera eternally young in the black and white image glued onto the pages of the album: "Oh, he also proposed to me, no, I'm not sorry I turned him down", "oh, gosh, that chap was killed...", "this chap went on to an excellent career with BOAC after the war", "gosh, he also died during the war", "I liked him, lovely chap, but he was killed'....

I've inherited her photograph album, her writing desk, her husband's 'wings', his pencil case, and his ring, (an elegant, but plain yet solid gold band) which she wore until her own death, and which I wear now, in memory of them both.



Also really eloquently put about about the regrets of not talking properly to that generation.

When I was in my late teens / early twenties I used to know an old boy via a club we were both in who was a bit bad tempered and could be a bit short with people. I sort of got on with him quite well and used to share the odd pint together. As I got to know him better it gradually dawned on me that he'd been a prisoner of the Japanese. Looking back at our pub drinks it was obvious he wanted to talk (he lived on his own) but I was young and stupid (probably still am a bit) and missed the chance.

Ouch.

That is a terrible pity, and I do understand the regrets.

Being young (and stupid), and sometimes, cocky (if you were bright), and, perhaps, a bit arrogant.

Sigh. Yes, been a bit guilty of that, m'lud, at times. Wince.

But, sometimes, it wasn't just obliviousness, or self-obsessed stupidity (and yes, youngsters can fall prey to this), sometimes, it was a lack of knowledge (some of this stuff was classified for years, and the treasure troves of archives had to be visited in person), and sometimes, it was confidence - you are a kid, and facing you is this formidable individual, with an extraordinary war record, but who is also a reserved, composed, and sometimes, quite a prominent and respected professional person; daring to even question them takes confidence and knowledge.

What I have noticed is that some of that generation wouldn't talk to their immediate family, but would (sometimes) open up to someone who was a bit more distant, someone to whom they were not especially close - perhaps a friend of a grandson or granddaughter (as happened to me with a Frenchman who had had an extraordinary career, - I knew his grandchildren) - and only when they themselves were elderly and felt able to put things into perspective, a perspective afforded by the distance of time and with the insight and understanding that comes with age and maturity.

For years, I would imagine that they simply wished to put the war (and its memories) behind them, and get on with living a life that had been denied to so many of their friends and colleagues.

Only in old age - or, late middle age - would they be able to fully face - think through, and perhaps, even wish to talk about, and share - what they had experienced, preferably distanced in time and place from their normal environment and from where these events had taken place.

Often, the best tales get told away from where they normally live, abroad, for example, on a holiday, or, when working abroad, or, a place where they can relax and let their guard down, the dinner table - dinners in France are long and lingering, - or, yes, most certainly, the pub.

Anyway, I was fortunate to some extent in that friends brought me home explaining that I was (and still am) passionate about history; sometimes chaps (and women) opened up to an interested (young) enthusiastic and captive audience (me), their families (occasionally) letting me know subsequently that that had been the first time that they had heard those stories.

But, while I now think that while I may have been the immediate catalyst for the telling of these tales, - and it was always an incredible honour and privilege to have been present - I also think that the story tellers - from that legendary generation (and others, younger, also with amazing stories to tell) - had arrived at a time and place in their minds where they were now prepared to offer their stories, my presence merely facilitated this, and their families needed to hear it, which meant that the time had become right to talk.


I think it was the late 90's when I went and you're right it was even then still all bit hush hush, as you say amazing how many of them took their secrets to the grave. Can't imagine people doing that now.

Anyway do go, you'll love it...
"Hush-hush", yes, that was the expression they used, wasn't it? I seem to remember that Bletchley Park uncle - the only time the topic ever came up - very briefly, in conversation - remarking, calmly, "it was all a bit hush-hush".
 
Last edited:

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
64,163
46,603
In a coffee shop.
Ok so. Churchill War Rooms is pure tourism. A few maps, some old telephones and stuff, and a fair bit of historical revisionism. Also very expensive.

Imperial War Museum in Lambeth is a much better option, if war is your thing. Far more varied and nuanced. Some very thought-provoking displays and exhibs. And entry is free.
Agreed.

An excellent museum.

Greenwich is a good place to visit, as there's lots of interesting stuff such as the Royal Observatory in Greenwich Park, from where all time is measured. You can go and stand on the GMT line, and have a foot in both hemispheres. The Maritime museum is very interesting for erm, maritime history, and of course London was one of the world's most important ports. You've also got the foot tunnel, Cutty Sark, Royal Navel College and loads of very nice pubs. Overground train, light rail and river boat services connect Greenwich with central London.
An excellent suggestion; Greenwich is brilliant, and I loved both the Cutty Sark and standing on the GMT line.
The Riverbus is fun on a nice day, great views of London from the river. Goes under the iconic Tower Bridge!
Ah, yes.

I had forgotten about this; also an excellent idea.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dmr727

Macky-Mac

macrumors 68040
May 18, 2004
3,533
2,589
...What I have noticed is that some of that generation wouldn't talk to their immediate family...

indeed......both of my parents were in service during WW2, my father in the Pacific and my mother in North Africa and then in Europe...both would evade answering any questions we curious kids asked
 
  • Like
Reactions: Scepticalscribe

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
55,498
53,351
Behind the Lens, UK
indeed......both of my parents were in service during WW2, my father in the Pacific and my mother in North Africa and then in Europe...both would evade answering any questions we curious kids asked
Same. My grandparents never talked about it.
One year we were holidaying in France. When my Dad mentioned the town (Caen), he said he remembered that place. Bodies pilled up as high as houses. Never mentioned it again.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Scepticalscribe

Abdichoudxyz

Suspended
May 16, 2023
382
353
Another vote for oxford 👍

I’m quite negative about London as I’m not a fan of cities! Much nicer places to go like the countryside
Problem with 'the countryside', is that it's generally only nice when the weather's good. Which, in the UK, isn't very often outside of the summer. Who wants to trudge about in the cold and wet? Whereas cities offer lots of experiences that can be had inside in the warm.
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
64,163
46,603
In a coffee shop.
Problem with 'the countryside', is that it's generally only nice when the weather's good. Which, in the UK, isn't very often outside of the summer. Who wants to trudge about in the cold and wet? Whereas cities offer lots of experiences that can be had inside in the warm.
You make an excellent - and very necessary - point, and this is exactly my main concern with the countryside.

The countryside can be glorious when the weather is good, but, firstly, that doesn't happen very often, and secondly, the weather can be unpredictable, weather forecast notwithstanding.
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
55,498
53,351
Behind the Lens, UK
You make an excellent - and very necessary - point, and this is exactly my main concern with the countryside.

The countryside can be glorious when the weather is good, but, firstly, that doesn't happen very often, and secondly, the weather can be unpredictable, weather forecast notwithstanding.
If you wear suitable clothes it’s all good. The big attraction of the countryside over London is the lack of people. Not a fan of crowds.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chuckeee

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
64,163
46,603
In a coffee shop.
If you wear suitable clothes it’s all good.
Only to a certain extent.

The countryside is dismal in the rain of winter (actually, it is dismal in a downpour at any time).

Not a fan of rain on my glasses, or of getting wet.

The big attraction of the countryside over London is the lack of people. Not a fan of crowds.
Sometimes, art galleries and museums can be wonderfully empty, as well.
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
55,498
53,351
Behind the Lens, UK
Only to a certain extent.

The countryside is dismal in the rain of winter (actually, it is dismal in a downpour at any time).

Not a fan of rain on my glasses, or of getting wet.


Sometimes, art galleries and museums can be wonderfully empty, as well.
Yes but you still have to deal with the crowds getting there. To think I used to travel on the Tube daily. These days I avoid it like the plague.
 

Macky-Mac

macrumors 68040
May 18, 2004
3,533
2,589
Same. My grandparents never talked about it.
One year we were holidaying in France. When my Dad mentioned the town (Caen), he said he remembered that place. Bodies pilled up as high as houses. Never mentioned it again.

we never would have known that our mother had been overseas during the war if it weren't for the Christmas letters she received from France for many years.....eventually my older brother spotted the French stamps and then some sort of explanation was needed to satisfy his curiosity
 
  • Like
Reactions: Scepticalscribe

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
64,163
46,603
In a coffee shop.
Which London is full of. I’ve spent many happy hours in the Tate Modern, National Portrait Gallery, British Museum, Victoria and Albert Museum, the Natural History Museum and the Science Museum around the corner. Wonderful places!
An excellent selection (and all highly recommended).

I spent days of my life in the British Museum, which I loved.

I'd add the Wallace Collection to that list, an excellent, small museum.

Tower of London also (get there early), but an amazing place.
 
  • Like
Reactions: scubachap

scouser75

macrumors 68030
Oct 7, 2008
2,740
554
Yes but you still have to deal with the crowds getting there. To think I used to travel on the Tube daily. These days I avoid it like the plague.
There's not wrong with the tube. I absolutely love it. A great opportunity to read, people watch, meet people, see different things, see weird things. So much.

Love it so much, I actually want to do the "round the whole network in a day" thing. Anyone wanna join me?

To think I used to travel on it every weekday. Unfortunately I now work permenetly from home.
 
  • Like
Reactions: scubachap

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
55,498
53,351
Behind the Lens, UK
There's not wrong with the tube. I absolutely love it. A great opportunity to read, people watch, meet people, see different things, see weird things. So much.

Love it so much, I actually want to do the "round the whole network in a day" thing. Anyone wanna join me?

To think I used to travel on it every weekday. Unfortunately I now work permenetly from home.
I mostly work from home. But live in the countryside and drive into the office when I’m in. Much prefer it.

I’m not in London all that often, but always drive to our office there. I prefer my own space.
 
  • Like
Reactions: scouser75

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
64,163
46,603
In a coffee shop.
There's not wrong with the tube. I absolutely love it. A great opportunity to read, people watch, meet people, see different things, see weird things. So much.

Love it so much, I actually want to do the "round the whole network in a day" thing. Anyone wanna join me?

To think I used to travel on it every weekday. Unfortunately I now work permenetly from home.
The problem with (and tragedy of) the Tube is that it could be so much better.

And, since I have seen what some other countries offered in their underground systems, I have found it somewhat claustrophobic - I don't like the design; or, rather, I prefer the continental versions (which are more spacious).

Granted, I had loved it (marvel of engineering, revolutionary form of transport, speedy means of transporting large numbers of humans, etc) until I saw what Paris, St Petersburg, Moscow, Prague, Brussels, and yes, even places such as Tashkent (the underground there is astonishing and wholly unexpected) offered in their respective underground systems which are genuine revelations.

Now, I wonder why London cannot be better.
 
  • Like
Reactions: scouser75

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
55,498
53,351
Behind the Lens, UK
The problem with (and tragedy of) the Tube is that it could be so much better.

And, since I have seen what some other countries offered in their underground systems, I have found it somewhat claustrophobic - I don't like the design; or, rather, I prefer the continental versions (which are more spacious).

Granted, I had loved it (marvel of engineering, revolutionary form of transport, speedy means of transporting large numbers of humans, etc) until I saw what Paris, St Petersburg, Moscow, Prague, Brussels, and yes, even places such as Tashkent (the underground there is astonishing and wholly unexpected) offered in their respective underground systems which are genuine revelations.

Now, I wonder why London cannot be better.
Probably because it was built so long ago. To upgrade it would result in chaos as the renovations take place.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.